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Piracy => Cost increase => Piracy ...

It looks to me like a classic "Chicken or the Egg" argument. Which came first?

I agree that prices are not inline with the value of products. That still does not make piracy anymore legal or morally justifiable.

Send a message to developers and don't buy their overpriced product...but don't send them the wrong message by pirating it.
 
>and in my book legally wrong

fell like dumping some tea with me? I hear the Boston area is mighty fine this time of year!!
 
Originally posted by big
>and in my book legally wrong

fell like dumping some tea with me? I hear the Boston area is mighty fine this time of year!!

You can do it during Geektoberfest... 😛 😀
 
Please don't do this apple

First my background. I have used PC's all my life, but very little Windows. I ran DOS, OS/2 and Linux. I enjoy Free Software, but I'm not religious about it. One thing is certain, you would not catch me dead using a Mac before MacOS X was released. I am also a programmer.

<p>

When I got my iBook 6 months ago, I did it very aware of reality. Apple computers have an underpowered CPU, slow system bus, slow memory system and they are overpriced. They are also SEXY! Yes. They are sexy. The hardware is beautiful. The operating system is beautiful, and Cocoa is probably the best application framework ever conceived. I remember lusting for a NeXT back in the day, but never had the money.

<p>

In other words, I got an iBook because the total user experience (including visual) was, in my opinion, superior to my speedy PC running Slackware Linux.

<p>

Having said that, I think that this whole Jaguar pricing thing, the .Mac thing and now these potential anti-piracy measures decrease Apple's sexyness. These moves make the Mac similar to the "Wintel" experience. Apple should try and make that not happen. They should try and be as different as possible. I feel cheap when software assumes I'm a potential pirate and asks me for a serial number.

<p>

If Apple positions its products as classy and pricey, they shouldn't be pulling cheap stunts like that.

<p>

On the other hand, none of this is too significant. It worries me because it could be the beginning of something a lot worse.

<p>

Apple people should be spending their time trying to figure out a way to buy Altivec from Motorola and licensing it to IBM, so that they can have decent CPUs.

This was a long first post.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: SN ?

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Even people that purchase windblows don't do that. 😛 😀 Of course, unless they are a corporation.

Actually, I did. I have two Athlon based systems running XP Professional. I purchased the OEM version that was cheaper than the retail, boxed XP home.
 
Originally posted by big
>I'm buying Jaguar, and will install it on two machines. end of story. I will not feel bad for it. When photoshop drops to a reasonable price, I will buy it too!

Not to be a complete ******, but as an arguement I would say... If you can't afford Photoshop, perhaps you should look at one of the bitmap editors that are in your price range. I was lucky though, I bought a full version of Photoshop that came with a scanner. The "Computer City" store had mismarked the price. So either I got a free scanner with Photoshop, or the other way around. This is back when scanners cost over $500!
 
Everyone who makes a judgment on my morality can go to hell

I'll use whatever software I want at whatever prices I want to pay or not. I don’t give a shiat about supporting Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.--super rich f***s, to them and their kind $120 is the equivalence of 1¢ to a normal working stiff. ---When are people going to wake up and realize that they are supporting and enabling an economic system, which is rotten to the core (Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, Micro$oft.etc) which, in its very essence is immoral.--don't give me any lectures about "stealing" cable TV, music, etc..


I can get whatever game or program I want over hotline or any other p2p network. If apple thinks that their codes wont be hacked, posted, or broken, they are idiots and deserve what’s coming to them..Winxp and officexp have been hacked to hell. The way I see it, the better the programs and games I get off the net, the better chance I’ll upgrade my computers..

(If the manufactures were really smart, they would give all their software for free, and just require top-notch hardware to run it.)
 
Originally posted by chuckzee
Everyone who makes a judgment on my morality can go to hell

Already been there, Join us!

BTW, I need to borrow your car next Tuesday. No, don't worry, I'll just make my own key.
 
Originally posted by Scottgfx




BTW, I need to borrow your car next Tuesday. No, don't worry, I'll just make my own key.


Our cars are really not our cars. First of all, I have to register it, then insure it, then keep it gassed up, and then pay various taxes and fees on them etc... We never own them; we support them, so you will be doing me a favor. As for software, yeah, I’ll make or "steal” whatever key I need or I find. What about it makes you lose sleep?


As for hell? It's most defiantly windows me 😀
 
Originally posted by chuckzee
Our cars are really not our cars. First of all, I have to register it, then insure it, then keep it gassed up, and then pay various taxes and fees on them etc... We never own them; we support them, so you will be doing me a favor. As for software, yeah, I’ll make or "steal” whatever key I need or I find. What about it makes you lose sleep?


As for hell? It's most defiantly windows me 😀

I'm not losing sleep, but I'm pretty sure that the software developers at Apple are...or did you think that Steve himself writes all the code?

You're not stealing from Jobs or Gates when you pirate, you are stealing from the coders/designers/project managers, etc. People who, just like the rest of us, will most likely never be filthy rich or CEO of billion dollar corporations.

Your acts of "defiance" hurt more people than you think.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I'm not losing sleep, but I'm pretty sure that the software developers at Apple are...or did you think that Steve himself writes all the code?

You're not stealing from Jobs or Gates when you pirate, you are stealing from the coders/designers/project managers, etc. People who, just like the rest of us, will most likely never be filthy rich or CEO of billion dollar corporations.

Your acts of "defiance" hurt more people than you think.

You missunderstood me. Just because I have the freedom to do it, does not mean i will. (just cause you can have an abortion, doesn't mean you should) I'll make that call and deal with the consequences...(like I might pay $120 for jaguar, but not $600 for ps7)
 
And lets not forget about people who have 401(k) plans. If MS is part of their mutual fund, it affects them
 
Violating the law is not an effective measure of protest - it is a self-serving, greedy form of pseudo-protest that is oblivious to the respect of the law. If everyone violated every law they deemed bad, then we would all be living locked in concrete cells to hide from the hordes of maurauding anarchist bandits out to kill us for the gold in our fillings.

Now certainly this is a thread ostensibly (or at least originally) about software piracy, but I cannot in good conscience allow such a grotesque generalization pass unnoticed - the most pathetic, most moronic statement I've ever heard! Why don't you go tell that to Jesus Christ, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Henry David Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Andrei Sakharov, anyone who harbored runaway slaves in 19th century America, anyone who harbored Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe (shall I continue?) - ALL of whom were knowingly, willingly and (yes) bravely violating existing LAWS. I'll leave it to you to consider just how effective their respective protests were, OK?

The fact of the matter is that some (actually many) laws are simply unjust and outright immoral and it's incumbent upon any decent person to disobey them. If you are in need of a refresher of such ideas, then I refer you to The Declaration of Independence, for starters.

Sorry, but your argument is based on a false generalization, before winding its way into a slippery slope argument. Bad logic, in other words.

But there does indeed seem to be a lot of bad logic and baffling inconsistency bouncing around the Macrumors forums lately.

Funny to read here actual clamoring (!) for Apple to install security measures, product activation, etc. when I can recall the drubbing Microsoft got - and rightly so! - in these very forums for doing the very same thing in the not too distant past. Ergo, if Microsoft and that mean old Bill Gates does it, it's bad, if Apple does it, it's good? Uh-huh. "Well, Apple is a business." So sayeth the slavish zealots. So what does that Microsoft then? Uh, I guess Microsoft has enough money; they have no real need of any more, but if Apple wants to gouge me, well, that's OK!

Here's some common sense for you: neither the RIAA, the MPAA, Microsoft, Apple Inc., Adobe or anyone else has ever been able to produce a shred of actual proof that piracy = lost sales. Because it does not. Those who pirate fall into one of two general categories:

1) Would not purchase the product anyway
2) Could not afford to purchase the product

All those kids happily downloading on Carracho and Hotline are not feeling grateful that they've just managed to save themselves $600 for Photoshop 7.0 and have instead decided to spend the money saved on jeans and bubblegum. If they even had the $600, believe me, sending it all to Adobe is most definitely not something that has ever cropped up on even the lowest reaches on their list of spending priorities. In other words, no lost sale here.

As for 2), piracy runs rampant in countries which are POOR. It doesn't take an economist to figure out the logistics of this. Microsoft Windows is the single most common pirated program in China (if not the world) SIMPLY BECAUSE THE AVERAGE CHINESE PERSON CANNOT AFFORD MICROSOFT'S ASKING PRICE. If MS offered Windows at a price that the populace could afford, do you really believe that there would be any problem with Windows piracy in China? Of course not!

Now you may call these "pirates" immoral, against cosmic law and the right hand of the lord's justice, whathaveyou (as someone here did), but I ask you to consider just where your Apple computers came from in the first place, and just who actually put them together.

And to whoever it was who had the audacity to judge the gentleman from Venezuela, calling him an immoral pirate and whatnot, well, consider this, Mac users: your precious Macs and the components which constitute them are being manufactured and assembled by low-wage, exploited third world laborers, who, believe you me, are most definitely NOT being paid enough to ever dream of being able to afford one of the damn things. This is a FACT. (Average maquiladora factory wage in Mexico: $6 per day - yep, even the imac assembly factory; average tech factory wage in China: less than $2 per day.) Why don't you ask a teenage girl working at an Apple assembly plant in one of these places if she thinks Steve Jobs is a visionary, all-conquering hero? I am certain that you will get a much different perspective than you would at Macrumors, I guarantee you that.

Now you may call these "pirates" immoral, against cosmic law and the right hand of the lord's justice, whathaveyou (as someone here did). So if such people pirate/pilfer copies of Windows or Final Cut Pro or whatever, well, who are you to judge? That's pretty moderate and generous compared to what some there would perhaps prefer to do. That is, line up corporate America in front of the firing squad for human rights violations, environmental damages, and gross exploitation of labor (in most cases, child labor).

What you really saying is that it's A-OK for these people to make your products for slave wages, but - hot damn - be sure to condemn them to mighty hell for having the uppity audacity to wish to have a small portion of the fruits of their labor.

I'm serious. When you fork out that money for your next Power Mac or TiBook or Jaguar OS, why don't you take one look at the sticker on the box/computer which tells you where it was manufactured, where it was assembled. One thing it will NOT say is "Made and assembled by union workers in USA/Canada/European Union"). Think about that for a long minute. And if any of the people involved in making the thing have managed to pilfer some software discs or have somehow managed to walk out of the factory with a Power Mac or Cinema Display screen, well, I say more power to them. Small compensation, actually.

Meanwhile, I invite the anti-piracy zealots here to volunteer to work for $3 a day at a Mac assembly factory. Let's say Macs expressly for the Chinese market. No, you'll never be able to afford one yourself on what you're being paid - food and rent will be your primary struggle in life. But at least you'll be making somebody, somewhere happy. Any volunteers?
 
i wouldnt want to see apple put on an anti-piracy scheme like M$ did, like stupid activation or what so, that'dd just piss off more even more ppl (due to .mac and $130 for jag)
 
Originally posted by Pepzhez







Here's some common sense for you: neither the RIAA, the MPAA, Microsoft, Apple Inc., Adobe or anyone else has ever been able to produce a shred of actual proof that piracy = lost sales. Because it does not. Those who pirate fall into one of two general categories:

1) Would not purchase the product anyway
2) Could not afford to purchase the product


Well said pepzhez!

Question to all the moralizers out there; if you go along like happy idiots with a corrupt system that exploits people around the world, does that make you an accessory to a crime?

If your mutual funds are based on deceptions and exploitations, if your present "commander in chief" STOLE his way into office, and ushered in a new era of creeping fascism. If the rich get richer, yet you buy into it all, What justifications can get you into heaven?


Corporations don’t give a sh*t about you or any of their workers, they exist for one purpose only; to maximize profits.


Take their products, anyway you can. Their arguments have been false, always.
 
Morality rant

Those people who are bringing morality into this are getting me really pissed.
I do not believe it is necessarily immoral to break the law, there I times when it can be immoral to obey it. In Iran software piracy is legal. Does that have any bearing on whether it is moral? My morality is different to yours end of argument. Lecture me about your views on morality all you want but you'll get about as far as the Jehova's witness who gets the door slammed in his face when they wake me up on a Sunday morning.
Is installing one copy of OS X in my two computers illegal? Well it is definitely a breach of the license. However, I can see how you could make an argument for fair use. It's not illegal to copy a CD and have the same music playing on two different stereos at the same time. I don't think this has been tested in most countries. What is the difference between this and me stealing a computer? That's obvious to a five year old, I deprive someone else of it's use. Breaking your license on software you have purchased may or may not be illegal but it is not even the legal equivalent of theft.
Am I hurting Apple? Well let me put it this way. There are alternatives, not as good but alternatives nevertheless. Would they rather sell me two computers and one copy of OS X or nothing at all?
I am not someone who as a rule goes around pirating software. There are alternatives there that make it unnecessary. If the big companies that dominate software, Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia and yes unfortunately Apple too, think that customers will indefinitely accept unreasonable licenses and extortionate prices to finance their Executives jet set lifestyle then they are wrong. It is this whole situation that is immoral.
 
Pirating Jag-u-wire

Obviously, they're talking about pre-release copies being pirated. I think they're more concerned with secrecy than loss of revenue.
On the other hand, I will be pirating the 10.2 upgrade; for the first time, I'll be pirating an OS. The reason is, that the OS I got with the machine I bought 3 months ago is still pretty primative. It isn't even able to handle scrolling very well! So, if I don't get 10.2, I'll have a half-baked OS to live with. Forever. No more bug-fixes. And a lot of beach balls!
I'm sorry, but I won't pay $129 for a 0.0.5 point upgrade. Even $20 would've pissed me off a little, but I would've paid it.
And, for what it's worth, I've been a Mac addict, evangelist, and apologist since 1985.
 
Fine Words

There's an awful lot of pompous crap being spouted here by those from The Land That Morality Forgot. Pepzhez, your arguments are very refreshing. Stick it to the corporate bandits wherever you can. The playing field is obscenely tilted in favour of white, rich corporations: "playing fair" is not relevant in these circumstances. Everyone should at least use the education discount. Nobody checks, and anyway, life is an education, isn't it? The companies still make an unconscionable profit on the sale, and they can claim a bigger share of the education market too.

For a different perspective, visit www.poclad.org
 
oh no SERIAL NUMBERS!? Those always work theres no way around them (sarcasm) and for all you people worried about Mac going the XP way just do what the warez scene does and get another serial number for the other computer easy enough.
 
Re: Pirates...

Originally posted by elgruga

As for Application piracy, well, lets face it, $700 for Photoshop is insane.
$150 - maybe.

Cry me a freakin' river...

Photoshop = Professional softare for digital imaged editing.

Adobe Elements = Consumer version, that does most of what photoshop does

Complaining that Photoshop costs so much, is like complaining that:

A condo overlooking Central Park costs more than one in Brooklyn
A Ferrari Costs more than a Yugo
A Pure Breed Golden Retriever costs more than a mutt
An iPod costs more than an iRock (look it up)

There is a premium that must be paid for that last 5 or 10% of functionality that Photoshop provides. If you make your living using Photoshop, then you, or better yet, your company should pay for it. $700 is alot, but not too much for most companies to pay for a critical tool.

Hell yeah, I'd rather have Photoshop instead of Elements. I'd rather drive an Audi TT. Hell, if there is something that Elements can't do, I'll fire up XDarwin and GIMP, and it will probably do it.

What I will not do, is steal a copy of software, that very hardworking people spent alot of time creating. How many person-hours were spent adding that extra bit of functionality. The reason why a Ferrari cost so much more than a Geo Prism, has to do with the quality of the parts, and the fact that it was made by hand.

You get what you pay for, and if you steal it, don't go crying me a river if the company that makes the software makes it harder for you to steal.
 
Originally posted by astrocity20
oh no SERIAL NUMBERS!? Those always work theres no way around them (sarcasm) and for all you people worried about Mac going the XP way just do what the warez scene does and get another serial number for the other computer easy enough.

In case you didn't see my earlier post. It would be trivial for apple to use a software SN from the OS Box, and hash it with the hardware SN from your computer (see apple system profiler) and create a unique key for your OS, that will only work on your computer. Apple could have a private key, say 4096 bits, then do a pgp like thing to encrypt your hardware and software keys together. The resulting key could be sent electronically to your computer. You would only have to enter in your software SN. It would keep track of the hardware SN that it got from your computer when you installed it, together with your software SN, so that it would not allow the software SN to be installed on any other machine. Software update could be used to reverify keys. And even better, if the same software SN was seen from, say, over 100 different hardware SN's, then the next software update could disable your OS.

I would find that all very amusing, as a person who will be paying for their upgrade to 10.2, and have no sympathy for people who steal software.

It is not a moral issue. It is a legal issue. It may be wrong in the former, but in the US, it is definitely wrong in the latter to steal software, even from yourself
 
home use or business use, that's the difference

All the software, including the OS, I use for my work are strictly original. I find it more then logical you pay for the instruments that make you earn money.

At home I have several copies of other software. I use them to do some simple home stuff, play with them, learn them. I feel there is nothing wrong if I use a pirate copy.

But if we're talking pleasure software like games, it's an other story. I would buy them as I would only use them at home. (but I don't like computer games, so that's easy)

Often after playing for a while with a software, I realise I can make use of it at my work, so I buy the copy.
 
You're falling into the Language Trap, peterjhill. The laws are made by the corporations for the corporations, using new-speak. We are all being ripped off. Just because some of us can afford to pay someone else's annual wage for quasi-monopolistic products, probably because we are being paid ludicrous amounts of money by those same corporations which depend on trade imperialism and ultimately military power to enforce unfair terms, that does not mean that these practices are right.
 
Apple has been extremely lenient with Software Pirates in the past. They could very easily ensure that you can only use one copy of MacOS on one box. they make the hw and the sw, that would be *easy*. They haven't resorted to using the BSA to threaten customers into buying the legal product nor required product activation ever.

There is a lot of distance between apple and microsoft on the issue of software piracy
 
Originally posted by skunk
You're falling into the Language Trap, peterjhill. The laws are made by the corporations for the corporations, using new-speak. We are all being ripped off. Just because some of us can afford to pay someone else's annual wage for quasi-monopolistic products, probably because we are being paid ludicrous amounts of money by those same corporations which depend on trade imperialism and ultimately military power to enforce unfair terms, that does not mean that these practices are right.

I was going to respond to this, but instead I will unsubscribe to thread, as "Resistance is Futile" Trying to change people's opinions on piracy seems to be as easy as getting Jesse Helms to switch parties.
 
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