Politeness on forums?

[Shrink]

Foe me, its ok to disagree on a topic, but please be polite. As I stated, if more people treated others with respect then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Disagreeing is ok, but why degrade a member or his idea or his post in the name of freedom of expression. To often people feel empowered because they're sitting behind a keyboard and not discussing the topic face to face.

I agree that anonymity is a major contributing factor to unpleasant behavior. If I remember correctly, there are sites now addressing this by insisting that posters use their real names on their posts. I am not suggesting that this is necessarily the appropriate solution the the problem, and am certainly not suggesting that MR adopt that policy...but it is an acknowledgment that anonymity is a contributing factor to incivility, and an attempt (perhaps misguided, but an attempt, nonetheless) to address this problem

It is an issue, for me, of ambience, of the atmosphere created during discussion. It's not disagreement or spirited discussion that I would like to see discouraged, but the unpleasant atmosphere created by contemptuous and disrespectful exchanges. There are some wonderful threads where everyone who posts are polite, respectful, and civil to one another, and that in no way detracts from enjoyable, often humorous, and spirited discussion.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

As long as rules are respected, every individual has the right to express himself.
Forums contain posts, and everyone is free to ignore what one doesn't like.

You can open a forum and invite or allow only non nasty replies if you want. This is not the case for the vast majority of forums, MR's forums included.

It is allowed for people to post rude replies as long as they respect the rules. You can't force anyone to act in a civil way, or as to your own liking. It doesn't work that way.



So what? Can't posters express contempt through their posts, as long as rules are respected?

With respect, no, I don't believe that they can. Or, rather, yes, they can, but not still try to maintain the pretence that what is occurring is a civil disagreement, when what is being expressed instead is open contempt. Actually, I fail to see why contempt should be considered an acceptable alternative to reasoned, rational (if occasionally passionate) disagreement and debate in any forum, online, or in 'real' life.

Just because it is 'virtual' the internet should not be allowed a pass, or exemption, from the sort of basic courtesies required in face to face, or normal written communication, in the name of 'freedom of expression', or some misconstrued understanding of modernity and the advances allowed by technology.

My issue with contempt is that firstly, it is not respectful, nice, or pleasant, and secondly, it allows a bullying and gratuitously nasty tone to replace logic, debate and argument. In essence, it is aiming at the man (or woman) not the argument, in the belief that if you belittle someone you can silence them as effectively (if not more so) as when engaging in debate with them.

So, my thesis, or position, instead, is why not offer respectful argument instead of an insult, or a put-down, or a belittling and demeaning remark? At the very least, it allows for a much more pleasant and agreeable atmosphere; at the most, one might actually learn something about how - and why - others actually think, or behave, they way they do.

I'm not questioning anyone's right to express themselves. I'm also not saying that expressing contempt within the Rules is disallowed.

I am suggesting that it would, in my way of thinking, be far more pleasant to abjure contempt, rudeness, and disrespectful expression. It is just my antiquated notion that treating people politely and with a modicum of respect is more pleasant and pleasing than contemptuous and nasty expressions...even when they are within the Rules.

Just one old man's opinion of what makes life a bit more pleasant.

Bravo, mon vieux. Well said, and very nicely expressed. And yes, I'm in full agreement with the sentiments so eloquently expressed here.

Foe me, its ok to disagree on a topic, but please be polite. As I stated, if more people treated others with respect then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Disagreeing is ok, but why degrade a member or his idea or his post in the name of freedom of expression. To often people feel empowered because they're sitting behind a keyboard and not discussing the topic face to face.

Seriously, I think this lies at the heart of it. Too often, in the online world, protected by the mask of anonymity and (physical, personal and psychological distance) people allow themselves the right to be rude, in response to a comment, or observation, that they dispute, rather than engaging in argument and respectful disagreement with the post with which they disagree.

I truly believe that most of these people would not express themselves in such a way, above all, in such a tone, with superiors, or indeed, with those whom they deemed equal. Or, not without having to face possibly negative consequences.

And this is the nub of the matter. Online - and anonymous - communication allows for a degree of distance and anonymity where one can be released from the normal social constraints - such as manners - (and indeed consequences) - which may ensue from acting in a rude manner in a more normal social setting - which apply to adults when they meet one another face to face.

While the release from such constraints can be immensely rewarding (for biting one's tongue daily in work settings is, of course, a source of possible frustration), such release can allow for other, less admirable sentiments to be expressed, and in a tone that is frankly disagreeable.

The bottom line is when addressing someone with contempt, (instead of argument), contempt becomes the new norm, and worse, it allows for the creation of a public space where those who can express themselves thus, quite unpleasantly, and in such terms, become, by default, the new standard tone for many debates, as the others withdraw from such a space, preferring reasoned argument, or silence, (which does not necessarily mean acquiescence) to the unpleasant alternative of retaliation in like spirit.

Thus, it is the the frequently nasty, (unnecessarily so) tone, the substitution of insult, or belittling, mean-spirited, sarcastic remarks, for reasoned debate or respectful disagreement, that I take issue with, and will, at times, at least, attempt to contest, wherever possible.

While this tone of contempt may run the risk of increasingly seeming the norm for anonymous online debate, I, for one, really regret (and deplore) this. The internet is a revolutionary, transformational public space.

Let is be one where all voices can be heard with respect, and feel safe to offer an opinion, rather than one where the ethos of the schoolyard bully becomes the prevailing tone and tenor of debate.

Once again, I thank the OP for starting this thread. In truth, I think this thread may yet serve a very valuable service, if it allows for issues such as the tone in which much online debate is conducted here to be discussed.

 

[Huntn]

MOD NOTE: What makes it touchy is that some will take it as a challenge to see how rude they can be and inevitably someone will cross the line either because they have not read the rules recently, on purpose or through escalation. ("If he could say X, then clearly I can say X+1!")

Clearly whitedragon101 had not read our rules, or they would have known that "corrections" posts are not allowed here.

Overall, our rules are designed to allow mostly free discussion on a wide variety of topics, but they are most certainly not designed to eliminate all forms of rudeness. Some posters can manage to be rude/sarcastic/etc... without actually crossing the line but that doesn't mean that they are "tight with the mods."

B

Based on the OP's original post, I was just trying to get a handle on what he thought constituted rude. Now I'll let it lie there.

As long as rules are respected, every individual has the right to express himself.
Forums contain posts, and everyone is free to ignore what one doesn't like.

You can open a forum and invite or allow only non nasty replies if you want. This is not the case for the vast majority of forums, MR's forums included.

It is allowed for people to post rude replies as long as they respect the rules. You can't force anyone to act in a civil way, or as to your own liking. It doesn't work that way.



So what? Can't posters express contempt through their posts, as long as rules are respected?

I think the key to this entire discussion is that people have different standards for what they consider to be rude... even simple disagreement can be perceived as rude by somone.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

No, oddly enough, here, is an area where I think the distinction may be fairly clear cut - or, at least, it seems such to me, as a reader (and occasional participant) on these fora.

Here, I think the distinction lies in the difference between disputing someone's position (preferably with some respect or courtesy), - which is the stuff of robust, if not passionate debate, and attacking the person who made it, which can veer into dismissive contempt and demeaning and belittling remarks.

 

[annk]

I have been here (under other user name jefhatfield, too) since MR's inception and it has gone through seasons of friendliness and rudeness. I started the PRSI before it had its own corner here.

It all depends on who is moderating, really.

Some posters here get past the filters and don't get banned yet they are far more rude than many of those who have been banned. PM me if you want to know who they are (predictably on PRSI but oddly in agreement with me, but then being rude just to be rude) .. or.. (type of person who sees green when you see green but then beat you up for also seeing it) so I can give you a heads up, but I won't mention them publicly since they are tight with mods for one reason or another.

This is simply not true. It doesn't depend on who is moderating, it depends on whether or not a problem post was reported (it's not possible for us to see all posts every day) and a host of other conditions that include:

• Who is participating in a discussion
• What kind of day the participants are having
• Chemistry/political differences/history or the lack thereof among participants
• Personal limits for what constitutes rudeness
• Etc

Members who have a history of not getting along on the forums can sometimes get irritated at each other (but not necessarily). Members who don't generally get upset can be having a bad day. Members can simply rub each other the wrong way in discussion. A rules violation can go unreported, and not be seen by a mod or admin in that person's own personal browsing. One member can read a post as sarcastic where another interprets it as funny.

Although there is context for everything, many rules violations are clear-cut, and are moderated as such. Those that are more difficult are discussed. Moderation itself is extremely transparent among those who do the task. It leaves visible tracks to all the mods and admins, can be questioned via the Contact Us form, is reviewed upon request and is reversed if a mistake is found.

We would love it if no one were rude here, but that's just not realistic, any more than it is in real life. Rudeness is not a violation of the rules in and of itself, but things like personal insults, name-calling, correcting a member's language and several other issues are specified in the rules.

Those who report posts via the system aren't answered (unfortunately - we wish there was a system that made that possible, but there are just too many reports), but anyone who reports a post and sees that nothing was done is welcomed to ask us why via the Contact Us form. Every post report is however read and evaluated, and can be looked at again if necessary.

No one is "tight" with the mods or admins, at least not in any way related to forum work.

It is possible to be offended by a post without it having broken a rule.

 

[63dot]

This is simply not true. It doesn't depend on who is moderating, it depends on whether or not a problem post was reported (it's not possible for us to see all posts every day) and a host of other conditions that include:

• Who is participating in a discussion
• What kind of day the participants are having
• Chemistry/political differences/history or the lack thereof among participants
• Personal limits for what constitutes rudeness
• Etc

Members who have a history of not getting along on the forums can sometimes get irritated at each other (but not necessarily). Members who don't generally get upset can be having a bad day. Members can simply rub each other the wrong way in discussion. A rules violation can go unreported, and not be seen by a mod or admin in that person's own personal browsing. One member can read a post as sarcastic where another interprets it as funny.

Although there is context for everything, many rules violations are clear-cut, and are moderated as such. Those that are more difficult are discussed. Moderation itself is extremely transparent among those who do the task. It leaves visible tracks to all the mods and admins, can be questioned via the Contact Us form, is reviewed upon request and is reversed if a mistake is found.

We would love it if no one were rude here, but that's just not realistic, any more than it is in real life. Rudeness is not a violation of the rules in and of itself, but things like personal insults, name-calling, correcting a member's language and several other issues are specified in the rules.

Those who report posts via the system aren't answered (unfortunately - we wish there was a system that made that possible, but there are just too many reports), but anyone who reports a post and sees that nothing was done is welcomed to ask us why via the Contact Us form. Every post report is however read and evaluated, and can be looked at again if necessary.

No one is "tight" with the mods or admins, at least not in any way related to forum work.

It is possible to be offended by a post without it having broken a rule.

I could not disagree more.

However, this comes from my participation in Macrumors since it started from the viewpoint of the user, not a mod. Your perception could be very different in the moderator's world. I keep personal friendships with members here, and for many years, and some of them are here and some were banned.

Your view could be a bird's eye view, which I cannot get, but mine comes from stuff users who love Macrumors say off the board, via persona e-mail at times, which I don't think you are likely to see.

Everything you may say is true and same with me, but it only shows just how big Macrumors and its users are. It's like we are on the same planet but one of us is living on the northern hemisphere and the other on the southern hemisphere and we are having a discussion about winter weather.

That being said these forums are largely polite and moderated professionally and I thank all of you for your hard work.


jefhatfield, networkman, and 63dot on Macrumors

 

[annk]

I could not disagree more.

However, this comes from my participation in Macrumors since it started from the viewpoint of the user, not a mod. Your perception could be very different in the moderator's world. I keep personal friendships with members here, and for many years, and some of them are here and some were banned.

Your view could be a bird's eye view, which I cannot get, but mine comes from stuff users who love Macrumors say off the board, via persona e-mail at times, which I don't think you are likely to see.

Everything you may say is true and same with me, but it only shows just how big Macrumors and its users are. It's like we are on the same planet but one of us is living on the northern hemisphere and the other on the southern hemisphere and we are having a discussion about winter weather.

That being said these forums are largely polite and moderated professionally and I thank all of you for your hard work.


jefhatfield, networkman, and 63dot on Macrumors

Moderators and administrators are regular members for at least some and in some cases many years before they are mods or admins. So I'd argue that their perspectives are a healthy mixture of both continents, and not a bird's-eye view.

On such a large forum, there are bound to be members who become disenchanted. No one can please everyone all the time, and the nature of any forum - virtual or physical - is that people change, disagree with how things are run, and decide they'd rather move on. Add to that the fact that any experience is simply one side of the issue. Here the moderation is so transparent and well-documented that any bias or favouritism in moderation would be cracked down on so quickly that our heads would spin.

But I thank you for voicing appreciation of the work that goes into it all. Long-term members are especially in a position to see that, and it's nice to hear it occasionally!

 

[63dot]

Moderators and administrators are regular members for at least some and in some cases many years before they are mods or admins. So I'd argue that their perspectives are a healthy mixture of both continents, and not a bird's-eye view.

On such a large forum, there are bound to be members who become disenchanted. No one can please everyone all the time, and the nature of any forum - virtual or physical - is that people change, disagree with how things are run, and decide they'd rather move on. Add to that the fact that any experience is simply one side of the issue. Here the moderation is so transparent and well-documented that any bias or favouritism in moderation would be cracked down on so quickly that our heads would spin.

But I thank you for voicing appreciation of the work that goes into it all. Long-term members are especially in a position to see that, and it's nice to hear it occasionally!

Thanks for the reply.

Even though I truly believe there is favoritism, it's only because we are all human and it's one of the most human of traits. I guess the only way to stamp out favoritism and/or cronyism is if robots moderated this site. But sometimes favorites of mine here and on one of the other sites I belong to become friends and in some cases has truly enriched my life. I have seen some actual relationships (boyfriend, girlfriend, even spouse, business partner, etc) bud from a forum like this and as far as I am concerned, that's a much better place than personal relationship ads section in the newspaper.

 

[Shrink]

Thanks for the reply.

Even though I truly believe there is favoritism, it's only because we are all human and it's one of the most human of traits. I guess the only way to stamp out favoritism and/or cronyism is if robots moderated this site. But sometimes favorites of mine here and on one of the other sites I belong to become friends and in some cases has truly enriched my life. I have seen some actual relationships (boyfriend, girlfriend, even spouse, business partner, etc) bud from a forum like this and as far as I am concerned, that's a much better place than personal relationship ads section in the newspaper.

First, I would completely agree that I, too, have made "off Forum" friends as a result of posting in this Forum...who have enriched my life and provided wonderful friendships.

As far as favoritism on the part of the Mods or Admins, since they are human, they are fallible...but as annk points out, the behind the scenes system is self correcting. When there is a the possibility of actions with serious consequences to a member, there is extensive discussion among the Mods/Admins evaluating the suggested action. Again, as annk says, any Mod/Admin with person feelings about a member, positive or negative, will seek discussion with other Staff about possible actions toward a member. Based on annk's information, it would seem to me that favoritism or an unfairly negative attitude toward a member on the part of a Mod/Admin would make itself known to other Staff, and controlled to minimize the effect of that bias.

It's my observation, admittedly with less time on the Forum than you have, that members who end up Banned have been in Time Out on a number of occasions before such action is taken. There are exceptions to that observation, but it seems to hold pretty well most of the time.

Again, in complete agreement with you, I feel that this Forum is very well run and well Moderated, compared to some other fora I have seen. It's a hard thing to keep a Forum of this size reasonably free of...ah...unpleasantness, and it's my feeling that the Mods/Admins are doing a remarkably good job.

 

[roadbloc]

People need to get a grip. These are words on a screen by anonymous posters, not a family dinner.

 

[Weaselboy]

People need to get a grip. These are words on a screen by anonymous posters, not a family dinner.

I think the OP's point was the forums would be more enjoyable if everyone tried to talk (type) to one another like they are at a family dinner. Hard to disagree with that.

 

[MyMac1976]

except I do disagree, I wish there was a bit less brain mouth filter here. If you tie that to the censorship that always happens in forums you are left with what we have here, a whole page of boring uninformative and unhelpful. There are interesting things on the news and PRSI can be fun but it gets repetitive.

 

[roadbloc]

I think the OP's point was the forums would be more enjoyable if everyone tried to talk (type) to one another like they are at a family dinner. Hard to disagree with that.

Maybe. But there is ALWAYS going to be that one person (usually me) who often posts in an abrupt and short manner that will be seen as being rude or impatient with users.

And I'm not stopping anytime soon.

 

[mobilehaathi]

I think the OP's point was the forums would be more enjoyable if everyone tried to talk (type) to one another like they are at a family dinner. Hard to disagree with that.

Hmmm, you've never been to some of my (extended) family dinners.

 

[old-wiz]

Compared to some other forums, this one is very well regulated. Not that it is perfect, but much much better than other forums.

Definitely true.

On another forum <name withheld>, I see threads "Fake U.S. Passports/Driver's Licenses, U.K. Fake Passports..." and no one seems to mind. Good grief. At least we aren't allowing threads that would assist in serious criminal activity.

It's hard to not be snarky now and then though.

When I see people getting too heated, rude, and personal I send a comment to the mods and just leave the thread.

 

[Carlanga]

TS I recommend you go to other discussion forums of similar products you will find they are worse than here.

Better forum etiquette than here can be found in my opinion in cag, xda & blu-ray.com forums. Others tend to be worse.

----------

Definitely true.

On another forum <name withheld>, I see threads "Fake U.S. Passports/Driver's Licenses, U.K. Fake Passports..." and no one seems to mind. Good grief. At least we aren't allowing threads that would assist in serious criminal activity.

It's hard to not be snarky now and then though.

When I see people getting too heated, rude, and personal I send a comment to the mods and just leave the thread.

Can you PM me the name of that forum? Is it like a general forum about everything or a traveler forum? I'm intrigued to see stupid people making homemade passports/id that can easily be verified.

----------

I think the OP's point was the forums would be more enjoyable if everyone tried to talk (type) to one another like they are at a family dinner. Hard to disagree with that.

I hate dinner small talk in the big family dinners. Some people just act. Feels like A telenovela sometimes.

 

[Renzatic]

How about an example of a rude reply?

For example, if you came up to me and posted something I didn't agree with, and I told you to take your hand, and...

Let's not. Please.

...wrap it around my hand so as to engage in a nice, hearty handshake. We discuss our opinions in a polite manner, agree to disagree, and take our leave of the conversation on friendly terms.

 

[Septembersrain]

This site sometimes reminds me of another site I am a regular on. It's the elitist attitude that kind of makes you feel inferior and unwelcome. I know it's the internet but treat others like how you want to be treated. Opinions are just that and live and let live I say! =D

 

[Kissaragi]

elitism is about the one thing I've never seen much of here actually.

 

[Ddyracer]

I try not to post too much, it helps stay to friendly. Also, I try to respond and help people without being sarcastic or nasty. We are after all strangers so might as well have courtesy.

And don't get into arguments (This one's hard) lol, its just not worth back and forth even if your right.

 

[the8thark]

I think if people could write on a forum as if they were talking to a friend it would just make for a better environment.

If this polite chat survived the test of time just like good chat between friends then I'd agree with you. Even still even if it does not, being polite has zero downsides.

 

[theheadguy]

Moving past the culture of moderator police

I was initially posting a reply to this post, but I realized it may be a topic of its own.

Many forum sites, or sites that include forums like online newspapers, are realizing that they need to do something more than having pages of rules and a plethora of warning and ban-happy volunteer moderators if they are to sustain or regain high quality discussion.

It's no secret that the civility of MR forum participants has decreased over the past decade while, inversely, the enforcement, warnings, bans, and locking of threads by those policing the forums have increased. So, we find ourselves asking the same question pondered by many other societies of sorts - if we have things policed so well, why aren't our people more creative, happy, and cooperative?

From what I've written, you probably think I'd blame the moderator. I do not. Instead, I think our collective potential for politeness and creativity is stymied by the old standard that we all post under pseudonyms and monikers. If we all posted with our real name, conversations would be more civil, more friends would be made, and I believe, moderators would be more tempered and even-handed when their actual name is attached to an enforcement action.

edit: Case-in-point -- mystery moderator removes this from it's own thread to make it #47 on a forum about politeness

 

[mobilehaathi]

I have to admit I'm a bit suspicious about this politeness thing...

 

[ardchoille50]

I try, though sometimes fail, to adhere to a quote I heard from a friend:

"Never allow someone who contributes so little to you control so much of you"

Failing that, we each have an ignore list to which we can add users whose posts we would rather not see. I've found this feature useful for scroling past an argument wherein the participants are devoid of respect for others.

 

[Macman45]

I've been around these parts a while now, and fir the most part I've found the site to be a pretty friendly place. There will always be exceptions, but if reported they are dealt with by the Moderation team.

If you think MR is a rude place, just try one of the windows/ iPad and iPhone only sites. You'd be amazed at what people say.