Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[maflynn]

Same complaint I have against iOS--downloading updates to my device WITHOUT my permission.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it n the windows world, if you give the user a choice, they will not update their system and that had disastrious implications, due to the malware circulating. I could be wrong, but apple and google also have in the past pushed updates to their respective platforms without user acceptance, rare but it has happened.

For knowledageble people, windows has the pro version allows automatic updates to be turned off. For my usage in windows, I have automatic updates on.

 

[Omega Mac]

I suggested maybe two years ago on the forum, that the Spaceship campus may been a project that was diverting a lot resources across Apple at the expense of day to day.

Now that's it complete I already feel there has been a uptick in output and focus. Another year should clarify. Simply put there are a ton of meetings an decisions spanning over years that no longer have to take place on the subject of a new HQ, surely that frees up everyone to get on with the important tasks.

 

[guzhogi]

I feel Apple's in a catch-22 in terms of Macs: Apple doesn't update them because too few people buy them. However, too few people buy them because Apple doesn't upgrade them. Obviously, there are other factors, like component suppliers not making appropriate progress **cough** Intel **cough **

 

[theluggage]

The iMac and MacBook Pro are roughly 1 year old. The iMac pro was released at the start of the year. Apple has committed to a Mac Pro for 2019 and stated that a Mac mini is “coming soon”, though no time frame was given.

Yes, although its a pity that we didn't see iMacs and laptops with 6-core Intel 8th gen processors at WWDC this year, that only puts them a few months behind the curve - and they may be waiting for the appropriate CPU variations to become available in quantity from Intel. I don't think that's what people are getting riled about, though.

Last year's iMacs were pretty solid machines - I've got one and am generally happy, although I'd have preferred a modular desktop, my choice of screen, and twice as many ports.

The iMac Pro looks great if you want a $5000 computer where you can't change the screen or have a realistic choice of GPUs (...and if you go for an eGPU, that makes the internal screen with no external input look increasingly silly).

No, the problems are (a) the Mac Mini and Pro models that are important bricks in the line-up but which haven't been updated since 2013/2014 and (b) the lack of a proper "pro" laptop, not compromised for size and weight, to tempt all of those people still rocking 6-year-old MBPs. The new MBPs are lovely ultrabooks (if you work in a cleanroom, wear a hair net and wash your hands before touching the keyboard) but simply not what some of us (including those of us who shake the cookie crumbs off the keyboard every few weeks and have never had problems) want or need.

AFAIK all they have said about the Mini is "the Mac Mini is an important product in our lineup" - which, I'm afraid, sounds very much like corporate-speak for "what's a Mac Mini...? Hey, Tim, do we make something called a Mac Mini?" A truly important product in their lineup would have been upgraded since it was last downgraded in 2014. There have been several generations of intel NUC computers since then that show what a Mac Mini could be.

...and we still have absolutely no idea what the new Mac Pro will be, or when in 2019 it will appear, and the current Mac Pro is an expensive dead duck that even Apple have admitted is dead... which is a bit of a problem for, you know, pros who might have deadlines to meet and spending plans for next year to prepare.

When products have been allowed to go to seed for so many years, its easy to be cynical about promises that don't come with tech details. There should have been a Mac Pro pre-announcement at WWDC even if it risked a short-term dip in iMac Pro sales - long-term, pro customers who need some sort of long-term certainty will now be walking away and, once they've made the effort of switching platform, they won't be walking back.

 

[LordVic]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it n the windows world, if you give the user a choice, they will not update their system and that had disastrious implications, due to the malware circulating. I could be wrong, but apple and google also have in the past pushed updates to their respective platforms without user acceptance, rare but it has happened.

Microsoft was put in a rather hard place regarding updates.

They were sued when they didn'tforce updates and users didn't update than got caught by some security flaw.
Then they forced updates and they got sued for being overbearing and draconic.

no matter what they chose to do, they have been blamed. There's no great way of doing updates that doesn't piss of some group. Apple has the same problems, smartphone vendors have the same problems.

Microsoft at the end of the day decided that safety of the OS and user security trumped the "convenience" of blocking updates.

its annoying, but I'm willing to accept it if it means that 90% of users out there are secured and aren't a vector for attack / spreading of malicious programs. There have been several high profile security vulnerabilities that have hit windows (wannacry) that was rendered completely useless as Win10 forced the patch out months before it spread rampantly. this is a net win,despite the frustration of the update policy.

 

[maflynn]

Microsoft was put in a rather hard place regarding updates.

No question and there were a number of serious malware issues (ransomware I think) where MS made the then unprecedent move of patching windows XP, even though it was long after support expired.

its annoying, but I'm willing to accept it if it means that 90%

It can be, I'm working to find a process with the updates that doesn't impact me too much

 

[LordVic]

No question and there were a number of serious malware issues (ransomware I think) where MS made the then unprecedent move of patching windows XP, even though it was long after support expired.


It can be, I'm working to find a process with the updates that doesn't impact me too much

I've just set my quiet hours for my desktop while I'm at work. come home and it's updated. Laptop is a little more cumbersome, So I tend to set the quiet hours to when I'm sleeping.

I think in the last 2 years, I've been interrupted by updates maybe once or twice total. And each time Windows asked to reboot first.

 

[alien3dx]

Microsoft was put in a rather hard place regarding updates.

They were sued when they didn'tforce updates and users didn't update than got caught by some security flaw.
Then they forced updates and they got sued for being overbearing and draconic.

no matter what they chose to do, they have been blamed. There's no great way of doing updates that doesn't piss of some group. Apple has the same problems, smartphone vendors have the same problems.

Microsoft at the end of the day decided that safety of the OS and user security trumped the "convenience" of blocking updates.

its annoying, but I'm willing to accept it if it means that 90% of users out there are secured and aren't a vector for attack / spreading of malicious programs. There have been several high profile security vulnerabilities that have hit windows (wannacry) that was rendered completely useless as Win10 forced the patch out months before it spread rampantly. this is a net win,despite the frustration of the update policy.

Any windows can stop updating by stop the service or linux, while OSX don't have this functionality in GUI .

To me, if the server don't connect to internet.. Don't ever2 update .... once update.. ALL going to mess not running..

 

[maflynn]

Any windows can stop updating by stop the service

For me, I'd rather keep current, its safer that way.

 

[alien3dx]

For me, I'd rather keep current, its safer that way.

Windows have many times event upon update, restarting futile. If normal usage, just update . If server, make a backup image first.

The the most diff apple user and other os.. We will see rarely android user asking update to latest , so as windows user , so as linux user(unless he/she want to try to debug if failure happen)

 

[maflynn]

Windows have many times event upon update, restarting futile.

I'mn not grasping what you're getting at with this sentence.

If server, make a backup image first.

I support servers for my job, and I can tell you the number of times an update caused issues on a windows server. In my current job where I've been at for about 12 years, I think a bad update happened just once. We don't patch to the latest, we first test them out, and then rollout the updates, typically a week after patch tuesday. Still the patching process has been incredibly solid, and stable.

For desktops, I've never seen an issue. I'm not saying there are none, but I've not experienced any.

We will see rarely android user asking update to latest

Yes, but not because they don't want too, but rather they cannot. They need to wait for their carrier to provide the update and those folks don't roll out updates. Just look at how much marketshare the latest version of android has - its embarressing, so much so google has been struggling to get a soltution in place.

 

[Skeptical.me]

You could say that about the entire mac lineup at the moment.

Yeah, you're probably correct in saying that. Although, I don't mind the iMac Pro's.

 

[alien3dx]

I'mn not grasping what you're getting at with this sentence.


I support servers for my job, and I can tell you the number of times an update caused issues on a windows server. In my current job where I've been at for about 12 years, I think a bad update happened just once. We don't patch to the latest, we first test them out, and then rollout the updates, typically a week after patch tuesday. Still the patching process has been incredibly solid, and stable.

For desktops, I've never seen an issue. I'm not saying there are none, but I've not experienced any.


Yes, but not because they don't want too, but rather they cannot. They need to wait for their carrier to provide the update and those folks don't roll out updates. Just look at how much marketshare the latest version of android has - its embarressing, so much so google has been struggling to get a soltution in place.

I had many issue on windows server, but rarely happen to linux server. Good for you if had lesser problem on windows server.

 

[Val-kyrie]

Can you point out where you can get a laptop at half the price of the MBP with anywhere near the same quality? Because believe me I've been looking and I've found prices to be on par for the most part. Its only the high end spec machines where something like a Dell is cheaper.

Lenovo X1 Carbon 2018
i7 8550 4C/8T
16GB RAM
512GB SSD
UHD 620
1080p IPS
$1600 @ Costco every day
$1300 direct from Lenovo over Memorial Day

Dell XPS 13 2018
i7 8550 4C/8T
16GB RAM
512GB SSD
UHD 620
4K IPS
$1600 @ Costco every day
$1300 during recent sale

 

[maflynn]

I had many issue on windows server, but rarely happen to linux server. Good for you if had lesser problem on windows server.

Very much so, perhaps its our workflow, but I manage over 30 servers and my organization has two large datacenters that seeming have hundreds upon hundreds of servers. Patching them is very stable, maybe even boring if you will and boring is a good when it comes to updates
[doublepost=1529501627][/doublepost]

I feel Apple's in a catch-22 in terms of Macs: Apple doesn't update them because too few people buy them. However, too few people buy them because Apple doesn't upgrade them. Obviously, there are other factors, like component suppliers not making appropriate progress **cough** Intel **cough **

That argument only goes so far, since I can now buy an i7 45w, hex-core intel processor and an nvidia 1060/1070/1080. They've been out for a while not (earlier this spring). So for laptops its harder to accept that its intel's fault for Apple not rolling out new MBPs, more so as the days click off in the summer.

 

[bluecoast]

Yes, although its a pity that we didn't see iMacs and laptops with 6-core Intel 8th gen processors at WWDC this year, that only puts them a few months behind the curve - and they may be waiting for the appropriate CPU variations to become available in quantity from Intel. I don't think that's what people are getting riled about, though.

Last year's iMacs were pretty solid machines - I've got one and am generally happy, although I'd have preferred a modular desktop, my choice of screen, and twice as many ports.

The iMac Pro looks great if you want a $5000 computer where you can't change the screen or have a realistic choice of GPUs (...and if you go for an eGPU, that makes the internal screen with no external input look increasingly silly).

No, the problems are (a) the Mac Mini and Pro models that are important bricks in the line-up but which haven't been updated since 2013/2014 and (b) the lack of a proper "pro" laptop, not compromised for size and weight, to tempt all of those people still rocking 6-year-old MBPs. The new MBPs are lovely ultrabooks (if you work in a cleanroom, wear a hair net and wash your hands before touching the keyboard) but simply not what some of us (including those of us who shake the cookie crumbs off the keyboard every few weeks and have never had problems) want or need.

AFAIK all they have said about the Mini is "the Mac Mini is an important product in our lineup" - which, I'm afraid, sounds very much like corporate-speak for "what's a Mac Mini...? Hey, Tim, do we make something called a Mac Mini?" A truly important product in their lineup would have been upgraded since it was last downgraded in 2014. There have been several generations of intel NUC computers since then that show what a Mac Mini could be.

...and we still have absolutely no idea what the new Mac Pro will be, or when in 2019 it will appear, and the current Mac Pro is an expensive dead duck that even Apple have admitted is dead... which is a bit of a problem for, you know, pros who might have deadlines to meet and spending plans for next year to prepare.

When products have been allowed to go to seed for so many years, its easy to be cynical about promises that don't come with tech details. There should have been a Mac Pro pre-announcement at WWDC even if it risked a short-term dip in iMac Pro sales - long-term, pro customers who need some sort of long-term certainty will now be walking away and, once they've made the effort of switching platform, they won't be walking back.

The Mac Mini and Mac Pro (and maybe the Air) product pages should have a prominent disclaimer on them warning that these products are only around for customers who need replacement (or additional) units ie universities, companies etc.

AND that they are not recommended for new business or consumers.

Presumably they won’t do this as it would be incredibly embarrassing and look really really bad - which speaks for itself.

Not doing this and letting ‘casual consumers’ accidentally buy the mini or air - which have components in them that are 4-5 years out of date - is inexcusable.

Finally, I genuinely cannot think of another leading technology company that still sells hardware that’s so out of date & that which markets and promotes them on prominent areas of their website.

 

[Endorphine88]

So...with the risk of being torn apart and ripped to shreds by everyone in this thread... Why is it expected for hardware to be updated so frequently? I feel like my Macbook Pro is still new even though the update was technically 2 years ago. Same with my iPad Pro. I feel like frequent refreshers just for the sake of updates are a little redundant. I'd much rather see a refresh less frequently, but delivering more of an impact and a radical change. I'm sorry, I just don't share the view that the state of Apple hardware is ridiculous.

 

[manu chao]

Wow! Patronising and hillariously naive...

So Apple are the most valuable traded company in the world (One reason for which could be that their shares are overvalued) - based predominantly on a single product type (smartphones) which is reaching market saturation after 10 years of exponential growth. What could possibly go wrong...?

...but you still managed to miss the main point of my post which was that Apple can survive without the Mac, but the Mac can’t survive without Apple.

...and Apple’s services may only be 10% at the moment but it’s an area they are actively trying to expand, in contrast to the Mac...

If I were to go through your posting history from, let's say, five years ago, would your predictions back then for Apple have materialised by now? Or asked differently, can you think of a way that could prove you wrong? Meaning are the possible benchmarks that one could evaluate several years into the future that, if fulfilled, would prove you wrong?

 

[fuchsdh]

Agree or disagree, Mac value holds up extremely well and lifespan are increasingly pushing the boundaries...Look at MacBook Air from 10 years ago still fetching over $100 dollars on eBay. People are keeping their devices longer and longer no need for product refreshes every year. IMO.

I would agree, except that still doesn't excuse the Mac Pro and Mac mini being left to languish (even with the thermal constraints of the Mac Pro they could have at least updated to one or two generations of Xeons in the meantime), and if Apple is going to have arbitrary update timeframes that are longer than a year, they need to at least commit to regular update schedules.

I don't see the issue with updating hardware every 18-24 months in mature lines, hell even the iOS devices are starting to reach that state where even two or three generations don't have the same quantum leap they used to, but if you're in the market for a purchase it's maddening not knowing if an update is ever coming out, let alone when that will be in the next year.

 

[technole]

I’m going to ignore your childish implication. I’m fully aware that the Animoji developers would have nothing to do with Mac hardware. You’re clearly missing the point. The point is that Apple as a company employs enough iOS devs to do things like that, yet, clearly can’t keep up with Mac hardware needs. If Mac development stagnates it will have larger implications to the rest of the company.

You're the one being childish by bringing it up. You just were called out on it.

Mac is doing just fine.

 

[manu chao]

The Mac Mini and Mac Pro (and maybe the Air) product pages should have a prominent disclaimer on them warning that these products are only around for customers who need replacement (or additional) units ie universities, companies etc.

They could call them the Mac Mini Classic and the Mac Pro Classic (analogous to the iPod Classic).

Finally, I genuinely cannot think of another leading technology company that still sells hardware that’s so out of date & that which markets and promotes them on prominent areas of their website.

Camera companies do this sometimes. Sony does so quite comprehensibly. Their most extreme example is the RX100 which Sony sells six iterations of, released over a six year period:
2012: RX100
2013: RX100 II
2014: RX100 III
2015: RX100 IV
2016: RX100 V
2018: RX100 VI
All are still sold as new.

But others also have kept selling up to three generations of the same camera model concurrently.

And there are also real dinosaurs, like the Nikon Df, released in 2013 that is still sold unchanged without any successor. Or three Nikon 1 models (V3: 2014, J5: 2015, AW1: 2013), a system with interchangeable lenses that is basically dead (no new products since 2015).

 

[Omega Mac]

What you guys want is a ProX range or Pro+ range, maybe one version on top of each range. If apple might even ceed you one model in a range, it wouldn't be hard to re-tool for one size simlar to mid MCP cases size with modern updates that are not thinning.

Heck they could even differentiate up to 17" for the hardcore - I know screen size might be issue with higher density pixel screens for retina - maybe just have space to dock you iPhone on the screen , however we go there on this post.

Take a Macbook Pro X, 15":

In terms of rouged functionality (excepting processors & chipsets, lets say that remains same with reasonable updates when available or apple is ready).

Case: Couple extra mm's thick. Leverage thermal space for performance havoc if needed.

User upgradable:

RAM: 64/128 (base 32gb)

HD Config options:

x3 SSD sticks
x2 1.8"
x1 2.5"
​

Ports: Combo USB-A/SD-slot x1, USB-C x2, lighting port, mini jack in, mini jack out, ethernet -

Battery: W/extra mm's and the extra thermal room inside a 15mm let put 33% more cell for longer range mobile, break it into two modules with a physical ratio of 80/20 - if a battery module dies you have a secondary, easily swappable both but one fails you have the other as reserve.

Applecare: Custom, bronze, silver & gold coverage and bespoke parts cover.

You'll pay more for it & Apple will make more too - but you'll love it...​

The rest of the range can be as is for the mass consumer.

 

[scoobs69]

I’ve spent the entire day compiling the components for my new PC build. Very heartbreaking but liberating at the same time. Kind of feels like breaking up with a lost love that is no longer there for you.... Tim’s Apple is a lonely place. I miss Steve.

At first, when I started this process, I was disappointed as well. But when you realized you can actually tailor a build to your budget and needs, then the light goes on. At least it did for me. And when I finally ordered my parts, it became real. LOL

Once it was booted up, and all of my software installed, and I started using it for work.... I kept wondering, "what the hell was I waiting for"?

Not kidding when I say, this is one of the best websites on the internet.

https://pcpartpicker.com

Makes component selection a price tracking a breeze. I watched numerous build videos on Youtube, and it was far easier than I expected. ...though I got a couple of wires crossed up and it wouldn't start. As soon as those were readjusted, it's been going every since. ...literally non-stop. I don't shut this thing off. Maybe an occasional restart.

My 8-core 7820x Capture One Pro 11 photo editing build with no RGB and no keyboard is $1,681.00.

I created a part list for an Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop build with an i7-8700 (non-k) for $1,100. That's a cheap little beast. If Apple offered that system up in a triple height Mac Mini mini-tower for $1,400 (with a $200 upgrade for an 8GB RX 580 video card) I'd consider switching back to Apple. ...but I'm no longer care what Apple does at this point. From this point on, I'll be buying their least expensive computer (laptop or otherwise) for my personal use at home whenever I need to upgrade. ...whenever that day may come.

 

[mdbradigan]

So...with the risk of being torn apart and ripped to shreds by everyone in this thread... Why is it expected for hardware to be updated so frequently? I feel like my Macbook Pro is still new even though the update was technically 2 years ago. Same with my iPad Pro. I feel like frequent refreshers just for the sake of updates are a little redundant. I'd much rather see a refresh less frequently, but delivering more of an impact and a radical change. I'm sorry, I just don't share the view that the state of Apple hardware is ridiculous.

I think you're missing the point here a little bit. Apple has ceased producing computers that are repairable; you can no longer open them up and tinker, adding updated components. Instead, they are selling (more and more) sealed appliances. As such, people are on very disparate upgrade cycles. Some upgrade on year 3, some on year 5, some on year 2, etc. The point is - these people should be able to walk into an Apple store and pick up an appliance that is as good as (or better than) the competitors. In previous years, this was true, with the exception of gaming graphics, for consumer-facing and somewhat demanding specs. This year, we have competitors with specs that provide 20-40% performance improvements over previous generations available since November of 2017 (not to mention non-available feature sets such as touch-screen, pen-input, upgrade-possible ram/ssd's, more ports, etc.).

Therefore, Apple has both restricted upgrades, and neglected to modernize their appliances, compared to the competition. Apples have always been on the top-end price wise. Many of us believed in the past that it was worth it for the software. That value proposition is getting harder and harder to swallow in the face of competition with massively better specs at equal or lower prices.

You don't need to upgrade now. Cool. A lot of people do. They're on a different upgrade cycle than you. They should be able to get an up-to-date computer. If Apple doesn't want to sell one... a lot of folks are beginning to look over the wall at other options. Apple needs to hurry up here, or risk losing a small but very influential (in my opinion) portion of the market. When content creators on YouTube, influential tech bloggers, etc. are all saying "don't buy an Apple computer right now - there are better options" - that has a reverse-halo effect, and is potentially dangerous to the future of the company's computer division.

"radical change" is nice and all and I'd love to see some too; but incremental improvements in the meantime helps us all get work done faster and better, making our lives better and easier.

[edited for grammar]

 

[scoobs69]

Why should a thread be locked where people are fully expressing themselves, and in a round about way possibly communicating to Apple how uneasy their user base is? I’d call that productive.

They shouldn't lock this thread. If people don't like this thread, they don't need to read it. They can move on to something else. ...Aside from one person getting their underwear twisted into a knot about this thread, it's been pretty civil with a lot of good friendly opinions.