Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[Omega Mac]

There are two aspects that continue to sit like elephants in the room when it comes to the idea Apple will EOL the entire Mac line, this assuming no ARM rebirth.

1) Apple keep rolling out macOS updates with new features and functionality.

2) iOS development will have no dev platform.

These are the roots that support the crown of the ever growing tree that is Apple.

Why poison the roots? Makes no sense.

 

[ocnitsa]

I feel Apple's in a catch-22 in terms of Macs: Apple doesn't update them because too few people buy them. However, too few people buy them because Apple doesn't upgrade them. Obviously, there are other factors, like component suppliers not making appropriate progress **cough** Intel **cough **

People are saying similar things...but Mac is basically a 25 billion dollar business (that's 10 percent of Apple's revenue)...It's still arguably a huge amount of business, especially if they can keep it steady (after going down since the 2000s) it can stabilize their profit as handsets get saturated.

 

[Count Blah]

I didn't really look at it from that perspective. That makes sense. However, it is something I appreciate about Apple products and it appeals to me. I don't want something I can "tinker" with. I want a sealed device. ... It is certainly not such a big issue to me.

You HAVE To be joking.

In your price differential with wintel, don't forget the $$$ for Applecare/Applecare+

You may not want to tinker, but when you get the $700+ bill for the repair of a $20 part, the day after Applecare runs out, you'll be wondering why it's not easier/cheaper to fix.

You know who also didn't want to 'tinker' with their devices? My wife, mother, two sisters, nephew, niece, in-laws. You know who DID 'tinker' and improve the performance of their Macs over time? ME. I saved my family thousands, over the years, because I 'tinker'.

Can you guess who now tells their family to NOT buy Macs anymore, because they are all sealed? Yep, you guessed it - ME.

Your argument is as unsound as the anti-3.5mm plug folks - Take it out, I don't use it. If you don't use it, what harm is there in keeping it for people who do?

Insanity!!

 

[EDS66]

Lenovo X1 Carbon 2018
i7 8550 4C/8T
16GB RAM
512GB SSD
UHD 620
1080p IPS
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$1300 direct from Lenovo over Memorial Day

Dell XPS 13 2018
i7 8550 4C/8T
16GB RAM
512GB SSD
UHD 620
4K IPS
$1600 @ Costco every day
$1300 during recent sale

[doublepost=1529538180][/doublepost]Just an FYI, Costco is running a promo on the X1 -- $100 off. So it's $1,499 now plus shipping.

 

[pier]

after going down since the 2000s

Going down?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263444/sales-of-apple-mac-computers-since-first-quarter-2006/

 

[Feenician]

Going down?

This thread and these complaints are always based on the premise that the Mac business is somehow failing. It's not true and never has been.

 

[tex210]

This thread and these complaints are always based on the premise that the Mac business is somehow failing. It's not true and never has been.

But the median or average (not really sure, won’t lie) looks to be flattening when it could have continued growth. Here’s hoping for a Phoenix to rise from the “ashes”.
Please, please call it PhoeniX.
Edit- nevermind

 

[ipponrg]

This thread and these complaints are always based on the premise that the Mac business is somehow failing. It's not true and never has been.

Not showing growth is also an important metric.

 

[Feenician]

But the median or average (not really sure, won’t lie) looks to be flattening when it could have continued growth. Here’s hoping for a Phoenix to rise from the “ashes”.
Please, please call it PhoeniX.
Edit- nevermind

Not showing growth is also an important metric.

You're both absolutely correct that inan ideal world (for Apple) that they would be increasing their marketshare.

Rather than ask what marketshare Apple have though, it's much more telling to ask what percentage of marketshare Apple have in sectors they actually care about. Ask what percentage they have of laptops over $2000 or what percentage of phones over $800. I think you'll find those figures look very different. Now ask yourself if Apple would, given the chance, swap their small marketshare for Dell or HP's much larger marketshare of mostly low or mid-priced hardware, with their razor thin margins.

People have been looking at Apple's marketshare and proclaiming doom forever. You'd think people would catch on eventually.

 

[forbegos34]

Rogue Amoeba developer Quentin Carnicelli, who works on Mac software like Airfoil, Audio Hijack, Loopback, and Fission, this week penned a critique of Apple's Mac lineup and the company's recent lack of Mac updates, and that missive has been gaining some attention from Mac fans.

Using MacRumors' own Buyer's Guide, Carnicelli points out that it's been more than a year since any Mac, with the exception of the iMac Pro, has been updated.

It's been 375 days, for example, since the iMac, MacBook, MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air machines were last updated, and it's been 437 days since the Mac Pro saw the price drop Apple implemented as it works on a Mac Pro replacement.

The Mac Pro has not seen a hardware update since December of 2013, more than 1600 days ago. Apple has promised its professional users that a high-end high-throughput modular Mac Pro system is in the works, but we thus far have no details on when it might see a release.

The Mac mini, Apple's most affordable desktop Mac, has gone 1338 days without an update, with the last refresh introduced in October of 2014. While Apple has made promises about a refreshed Mac Pro, no similar statement has been provided about a future Mac mini, aside from a comment from Apple CEO Tim Cook stating that the Mac mini continues to be important to Apple.

According to Carnicelli, the state of the Mac lineup is "deeply worrisome" to him as a person who works for a Mac-based software company. Customers are, he says, forced to choose between "purchasing new computers that are actually years old" or "holding out in the faint hope that hardware updates are still to come."As Carnicelli points out, Apple could reassure its Mac users with updates and speed bumps to its Mac lineup on a "much more frequent basis," calling the current lack of updates "baffling and frightening to anyone who depends on the platform for their livelihood."

Apple in 2017 refreshed much of its Mac lineup (iMac, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, and MacBook) at its Worldwide Developers Conference, but this year, Apple opted to focus instead on software, with no new Mac hardware announced. With no new hardware in June, based on past release history, we could be looking at an 18-month upgrade cycle this time around, as pointed out by iMore's Rene Ritchie, with new Macs making an appearance in September or October.

Some of the blame for Apple's lack of updates can perhaps be placed on its reliance on Intel, and in the past, some Mac refreshes have been pushed back due to delays with Intel chips. This is likely one of the reasons why Apple is planning to transition from Intel chips to its own custom made Mac chips as early as 2020.

MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac, and MacBook Air upgrades are not in the dire state that Mac Pro and Mac mini upgrades are in, but increased attention on issues with the MacBook and MacBook Pro keyboards has left Apple customers eager to see those machine updated, especially as Apple has not acknowledged these keyboard issues despite their prevalence in the media.

"Apple needs to publicly show their commitment to the full Macintosh hardware line and they need to do it now," writes Carnicelli.

Carnicelli's comments on the state of the Mac lineup came just before Apple released a new Mac advertising campaign. Called "Behind the Mac," the campaign highlights creators who use their Macs to "make something wonderful."

The first ad spots in the series focus on photographer and disability advocate Bruce Hall, who uses his Mac for editing photographs, musician Grimes, who uses the Mac "from start to finish" to write all of her music, edit music videos, and more, and app developer Peter Kariuki who used his Mac to code the SafeMotos app, which is designed to connect passengers with safe motorcycle drivers in Rwanda.

These ads, while inspiring, may be seen as too little too late by those who have grown frustrated with Apple's Mac lineup and have come to see the lack of updates as an indicator of a lack of commitment to the Mac.

Article Link: Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[doublepost=1529543964][/doublepost]Apple is a phone company.

 

[ipponrg]

You're both absolutely correct that inan ideal world (for Apple) that they would be increasing their marketshare.

Rather than ask what marketshare Apple have though, it's much more telling to ask what percentage of marketshare Apple have in sectors they actually care about. Ask what percentage they have of laptops over $2000 or what percentage of phones over $800. I think you'll find those figures look very different. Now ask yourself if Apple would, given the chance, swap their small marketshare for Dell or HP's much larger marketshare of mostly low or mid-priced hardware, with their razor thin margins.

People have been looking at Apple's marketshare and proclaiming doom forever. You'd think people would catch on eventually.

I don't think Apple cares about enterprise nor do they have any decent experience handling it (see recent Apple Maps debacle). It's not about margins in this case, but of course one could use that as an argument now given how successful they are in mobile. However if you look back in the day (XServe, Mac stations, etc), it was clear Apple was trying to build their company into more of an enterprise. They are fortunate that their failures at the time are overshadowed by their current success in iPhone/iPod.

 

[Feenician]

I don't think Apple cares about enterprise nor do they have any decent experience handling it (see recent Apple Maps debacle). It's not about margins in this case, but of course one could use that as an argument now given how successful they are in mobile. However if you look back in the day (XServe, Mac stations, etc), it was clear Apple was trying to build their company into more of an enterprise. They are fortunate that their failures at the time are overshadowed by their current success in iPhone/iPod.

I agree with you completely on enterprise. At least by the traditional definition. Realistically we're talking about windows domain environments and Macs just never integrated particularly well. Combine that with Apple never really having a great orchestration and management story of their own and they really were not a good fit. I do think the landscape looks a bit different these days for some businesses, with byod and less rigid central control but that really only applies to a relatively small amount of businesses.

IOS, iPhone mainly, is a different story with MDM built right in and 3rd parties federating that.

 

[Lone Deranger]

Just thinking about the posts where people are saying:

‘Well the Mac isn’t too important revenue wise anymore, so we shouldn’t all be surprised’.

True, it’s not, but the Mac is used by the ‘1 percent’ to create content etc for the 99%.

Apple stands to lose the following critical sorts of people if they mess up the Mac:

- Mac devs (especially small developers)
- iOS devs (they probably won’t lose them outright but they’ll annoy them)
- Film/tv post production creative pros
- music and audio production creative pros
- advertising creative pros
- Web & digital graphics and animation creative pros
- Business people in the creative industries & tech
- College students (or at least a sizeable portion of them)
- Not to mention the soon to be crucial AVR and VR industries
- scientists (the www was invented on a NEXT computer)
- and I’m sure that there’s more...

That’s a lot of influential and important people people & industry sectors that Apple is now in the process of annoying.

I concur. As a 20 year Film & TV Visual Effects (CGI) veteran, I can tell you the last time I saw a Mac being used for actual day-to-day content creation was 7-8 years ago. Nowadays Macs have been relegated to simple production tasks like scheduling for producers and coordinators. But nothing creative/artistic. Sure, there are small exceptions here and there, like lone-wolf freelancers valiantly (some would say stubbornly) battling on with aging Mac Pros. But the big studios like Weta, IL+M, MPC, Framestore, D-Neg, etc. (the companies that provide the vast majority of Hollywood's content), are using Linux and Windows workstations. Macs are quite simply deemed too expensive and not powerful enough to do the heavy lifting. Now more so than ever. And no, an iMac Pro is unlikely to be considered a valid candidate for this sort of work.
It's sad, but that's the reality of it.

 

[Michael Scrip]

That argument only goes so far, since I can now buy an i7 45w, hex-core intel processor and an nvidia 1060/1070/1080. They've been out for a while not (earlier this spring). So for laptops its harder to accept that its intel's fault for Apple not rolling out new MBPs, more so as the days click off in the summer.

Thank you! Too many comments here are blaming Intel for Apple's problems.

You're right... Intel 8th-gen chips have been available for months. And everyone except Apple has shipping laptops with those chips inside.

So what does that say?

It's even less of an excuse for desktop chips. Not only has Intel made regular updates to low-power desktop chips that would be suitable for a refreshed Mac Mini... Intel themselves have jumped into the mini-desktop market with the Intel NUC series.

Meanwhile... the Mac Mini has sat untouched for years. So again... what does that say?

Look... there's no doubt that Intel has run into production issues over the years.

But considering that everyone else seems to update their machines on a fairly regular cadence... but Apple doesn't... the problem points to Apple... not Intel.

The way people blame Intel around here... you'd think HP, Dell, Lenovo and others have been stuck selling Haswell/Broadwell machines for the last few years.

But they haven't. That's just Apple....

 

[montycat]

This is probably one of the most compelling threads on MR in a long time. Ive noticed that the most coherent and intelligent posts are by long time MR members. My first and foremost interests on this site are the Mac forums. I rarely look at the iPhone or iPad forums. I do enjoy reading about the Apple Watch though, which I think is a great product. I miss the days when the focus at Apple and MR was about the Mac.

 

[EdT]

There are two aspects that continue to sit like elephants in the room when it comes to the idea Apple will EOL the entire Mac line, this assuming no ARM rebirth.

1) Apple keep rolling out macOS updates with new features and functionality.

2) iOS development will have no dev platform.

These are the roots that support the crown of the ever growing tree that is Apple.

Why poison the roots? Makes no sense.

My Apple history started with the Apple II, but there was a gap from 1984 until 2008 before I owned another Apple computer. So I missed out on the entire PowerPC era, and the trouble Mac owners had when Apple changed from an ARM based processor to a Wintel based one. I'm already leery of the proprietary systems that Apple has been implementing the last 5 or 6 years, and I'm not sure I want to continue using an Apple computer that only Apple provides software and peripherals for.

 

[ocnitsa]

Going down?

View attachment 767100

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263444/sales-of-apple-mac-computers-since-first-quarter-2006/

Percentage of revenue.

 

[KPandian1]

Going down?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263444/sales-of-apple-mac-computers-since-first-quarter-2006/

Percentage of revenue.

Please embed the actual article - statista doesn't allow any kind of reading.

 

[throAU]

It is not the size of the pebble but the size of the ripples it creates which matters.

Many here are in positions to influence the buying decisions of others directly and others here are the reason iOS (and macOS) is so flush with with quality apps. Without the small percentage of enthusiast voices and software developers, there will be no future success for Apple. If Apple does not address the concerns of the vocal minority, it will lose their support and by the time Apple sees the ripples of its failures in sales, it will be too late.

Definitely.

I have been directly responsible for say 5-10 people becoming apple customers and will also be responsible for diverting the same or similar number away due to being the person who gets asked amongst my social circle.

I'm not alone. You lose goodwill with the people who others turn to for advice, and the impact is significant.
[doublepost=1529553093][/doublepost]

For knowledageble people, windows has the pro version allows automatic updates to be turned off. For my usage in windows, I have automatic updates on.

You can not turn updates off in Windows 10 (even Pro, or Enterprise version), you can only defer them a bit.

The only way to get around windows 10 updates is to install your own WSUS infrastructure and block the updates there.
[doublepost=1529553535][/doublepost]

I feel Apple's in a catch-22 in terms of Macs: Apple doesn't update them because too few people buy them. However, too few people buy them because Apple doesn't upgrade them. Obviously, there are other factors, like component suppliers not making appropriate progress **cough** Intel **cough **

My big problem with the mac lineup at the moment is nothing to do with intel.

I'd be reasonably happy with a skylake or kabylake machine so long as the rest of the hardware is actualy reliable and not 50% over priced.

 

[alien3dx]

Definitely.

I have been directly responsible for say 5-10 people becoming apple customers and will also be responsible for diverting the same or similar number away due to being the person who gets asked amongst my social circle.

I'm not alone. You lose goodwill with the people who others turn to for advice, and the impact is significant.
[doublepost=1529553093][/doublepost]

You can not turn updates off in Windows 10 (even Pro, or Enterprise version), you can only defer them a bit.

.

Yes , you can. Open command prompt, type services.msc or search also work. Find Windows Update and Background Intelligent Service. Disabled it.

** I'm using windows 10 enterprise version

 

[Roadstar]

I hope all those computers where Windows Updates are purposefully disabled are kept disconnected from the Internet. However, in that case such disabling wouldn't be necessary in the first place and the thought of the whole scenario makes me sad.

 

[throAU]

Yeah, you're probably correct in saying that. Although, I don't mind the iMac Pro's.

I "don't mind" them but i built a superior spec machine (to the base model) for about half the price.

Sure it didn't include the monitor but i do not need or want a monitor. I already have one.

(R7-2700X, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB Samsung Evo 860 SSD, 2x RX Vega 64 for around $4k AUD).

To get anywhere similar spec to that (still inferior) I'd be looking at $7k AUD.

(replaced the R7 with a threadripper as appropriate if you want more cores. it's still way cheaper).

And i have slots in the PC.
[doublepost=1529559182][/doublepost]

Yes , you can. Open command prompt, type services.msc or search also work. Find Windows Update and Background Intelligent Service. Disabled it.

** I'm using windows 10 enterprise version

Well, ok you could do that. But thats not really a supported method. Disabling BITS also breaks a heap of other stuff that you may want to use BITS for, e.g., large file copies across the WAN, etc.
[doublepost=1529559308][/doublepost]

I hope all those computers where Windows Updates are purposefully disabled are kept disconnected from the Internet. However, in that case such disabling wouldn't be necessary in the first place and the thought of the whole scenario makes me sad.

See, people wouldn't have to be doing this stuff if Microsoft actually provided the option for more fine grained user control over the process.

But they aren't interested in that. If you run Windows 10 you're a product to monetise.

 

[tex210]

You're both absolutely correct that inan ideal world (for Apple) that they would be increasing their marketshare.

Rather than ask what marketshare Apple have though, it's much more telling to ask what percentage of marketshare Apple have in sectors they actually care about. Ask what percentage they have of laptops over $2000 or what percentage of phones over $800. I think you'll find those figures look very different. Now ask yourself if Apple would, given the chance, swap their small marketshare for Dell or HP's much larger marketshare of mostly low or mid-priced hardware, with their razor thin margins.

People have been looking at Apple's marketshare and proclaiming doom forever. You'd think people would catch on eventually.

Absolutely I agree that financially Apple is doing great, but I remember being there for Apple when they where struggling to get to 10% U.S. market share.

 

[pipis2010]

Yes, although its a pity that we didn't see iMacs and laptops with 6-core Intel 8th gen processors at WWDC this year, that only puts them a few months behind the curve - and they may be waiting for the appropriate CPU variations to become available in quantity from Intel. I don't think that's what people are getting riled about, though.

Last year's iMacs were pretty solid machines - I've got one and am generally happy, although I'd have preferred a modular desktop, my choice of screen, and twice as many ports.

The iMac Pro looks great if you want a $5000 computer where you can't change the screen or have a realistic choice of GPUs (...and if you go for an eGPU, that makes the internal screen with no external input look increasingly silly).

No, the problems are (a) the Mac Mini and Pro models that are important bricks in the line-up but which haven't been updated since 2013/2014 and (b) the lack of a proper "pro" laptop, not compromised for size and weight, to tempt all of those people still rocking 6-year-old MBPs. The new MBPs are lovely ultrabooks (if you work in a cleanroom, wear a hair net and wash your hands before touching the keyboard) but simply not what some of us (including those of us who shake the cookie crumbs off the keyboard every few weeks and have never had problems) want or need.

AFAIK all they have said about the Mini is "the Mac Mini is an important product in our lineup" - which, I'm afraid, sounds very much like corporate-speak for "what's a Mac Mini...? Hey, Tim, do we make something called a Mac Mini?" A truly important product in their lineup would have been upgraded since it was last downgraded in 2014. There have been several generations of intel NUC computers since then that show what a Mac Mini could be.

...and we still have absolutely no idea what the new Mac Pro will be, or when in 2019 it will appear, and the current Mac Pro is an expensive dead duck that even Apple have admitted is dead... which is a bit of a problem for, you know, pros who might have deadlines to meet and spending plans for next year to prepare.

When products have been allowed to go to seed for so many years, its easy to be cynical about promises that don't come with tech details. There should have been a Mac Pro pre-announcement at WWDC even if it risked a short-term dip in iMac Pro sales - long-term, pro customers who need some sort of long-term certainty will now be walking away and, once they've made the effort of switching platform, they won't be walking back.

AFAIK all they have said about the Mini is "the Mac Mini is an important product in our lineup" - which, I'm afraid, sounds very much like corporate-speak for "what's a Mac Mini...? Hey, Tim, do we make something called a Mac Mini?" A truly important product in their lineup would have

Yes, although its a pity that we didn't see iMacs and laptops with 6-core Intel 8th gen processors at WWDC this year, that only puts them a few months behind the curve - and they may be waiting for the appropriate CPU variations to become available in

I concur. As a 20 year Film & TV Visual Effects (CGI) veteran, I can tell you the last time I saw a Mac being used for actual day-to-day content creation was 7-8 years ago. Nowadays Macs have been relegated to simple production tasks like scheduling for producers and coordinators. But nothing creative/artistic. Sure, there are small exceptions here and there, like lone-wolf freelancers valiantly (some would say stubbornly) battling on with aging Mac Pros. But the big studios like Weta, IL+M, MPC, Framestore, D-Neg, etc. (the companies that provide the vast majority of Hollywood's content), are using Linux and Windows workstations. Macs are quite simply deemed too expensive and not powerful enough to do the heavy lifting. Now more so than ever. And no, an iMac Pro is unlikely to be considered a valid candidate for this sort of work.
It's sad, but that's the reality of it.

What exactly do you use in Linux? Am interested really

[doublepost=1529560060][/doublepost]

I concur. As a 20 year Film & TV Visual Effects (CGI) veteran, I can tell you the last time I saw a Mac being used for actual day-to-day content creation was 7-8 years ago. Nowadays Macs have been relegated to simple production tasks like scheduling for producers and coordinators. But nothing creative/artistic. Sure, there are small exceptions here and there, like lone-wolf freelancers valiantly (some would say stubbornly) battling on with aging Mac Pros. But the big studios like Weta, IL+M, MPC, Framestore, D-Neg, etc. (the companies that provide the vast majority of Hollywood's content), are using Linux and Windows workstations. Macs are quite simply deemed too expensive and not powerful enough to do the heavy lifting. Now more so than ever. And no, an iMac Pro is unlikely to be considered a valid candidate for this sort of work.
It's sad, but that's the reality of it.

What do you use in Linux exactly?

 

[Lone Deranger]

[doublepost=1529560060][/doublepost]

What do you use in Linux exactly?

The majority of our toolset really. Which in most VFX houses consists of (but is not limited to):

• Autodesk Maya, Mudbox and Arnold
• Side Effects Houdini
• Foundry Nuke, Katana & Mari
• Pixar's PR-Man, Tractor/Alfred
• Chaos Group V-Ray
• Isotropix Clarisse
• Lots and lots of proprietary tools that do specialized tasks that range from asset management to pipeline integration.

Most of these tools have over the years been painstakingly ported over to OSX. Often months if not years behind their Windows counterparts. In some cases due to Apple's lethargic attitude towards OpenGL and their disdain for nVidia/CUDA.