They’ve been hosting the whole thing, that costs money as well as paying engineers etc to keep Things going. It’s the same as Twitter, that’s why ads were the main revenue for those cites.
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Popular Reddit App Apollo Shutting Down After Today, Pixel Pals Migration Feature Added
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For me, this was always why I couldn’t get behind the protests.
There are several other Reddit apps that have said they’ll charge a monthly subscription and continue providing software.
Surely, the largest (I assume, based on all the drama) iOS app for Reddit could have come up with a pricing model that made sense.
He says these power users use too many API requests and he doesn’t believe anybody will pay that amount.
First, if they’re power users, they will. They won’t like it, but if they spend 8 hours a day on Reddit making hundreds of API requests, they’ll likely pay.
Second, either he’s very dumb, a horrible businessman, or he thinks everyone else is brain dead.
In his examples he quotes the average API requests from power users and says they won’t pay that but they don’t even need to. There will be tons of people that pay but don’t come anywhere near the top numbers.
It’s like a gym. If everyone that bought a membership used the gym the gym wouldn’t be able to handle the number of people. But, like most things, one group uses it a lot and some people go once or twice and never come back.
His numbers don’t make sense.
Third, he could offer Apollo on a monthly subscription but say that $5 a month gets you X API requests per month. Go over that and you pay more. Or he can have different tiers which allow more API calls. It’s how MidJourney works and a lot of other services.
Bottom line, having been in the business world for over 30 years, I’ve never seen someone throw up their hands and walk away from a profitable business without at least trying to make it work.
I’ve been making the prediction that this was all either a big PR stunt to benefit Apollo’s or it snowballed out of control.
I think he wrote that post and he rattled the cages at the tech media companies thinking Reddit would cave easily but when they didn’t he was stuck holding the bag and now had to justify why he was killing Apollo when he had other options available to him.
In fact, I’ve been wagering with some friends that before 2023 is through, he relaunches either Apollo or a similar product and claims he figured out a way to make it work.
All the Apollo fanbois will throw money at him and call him a hero for standing up to Reddit and he’ll make plenty of money.
The Apollo developer has always been pretty good at maintaining his fanbase. As a result, his prices are always a bit excessive. He also has a lot of sleazy tactics, but it is what it is.
For instance, the "decline the refund" and "donate to me because the API is going away and I can't charge you anymore" is sleazy. The same is true for the wallpaper packs and etc. You also so it with the pricing on the pixel pals app. It costs more for a lifetime sub than Apollo did and it does less!
He'll stay top side as he has done a masterful job building a following.
I don't think he's dumb, but his business plan was a horrible one (at least if he assumed it things would continue as they had been, forever), but I do think he clearly sees a mob supporting him and this is an opportunity for one last pay day. Really feels like a grift though.
On the contrary, the hypocrisy of people calling reddit a big bad evil company for not paying mods and users, but are totally onboard with Selig being a victim because the app that he created as a front end for a platform reddit built, and content users provided, is going away.
You can't make this stuff up.
My understanding is that, at least reading some comments from this thread, his original business plan made him millions... not exactly the kind of results that comes to mind when thinking about an "horrible business plan" unless you are horrified by significant success.
I also don't understand what's the problem in him claiming the business is nonviable with the new costs: it's ultimately his call to make for what pertains his own app and it's not an unreasonable claim: it's very unlikely that the demand for his app is so inelastic that he can simply offload the costs to the users without affecting the numbers of users willing to pay significantly.
@cupcakes2000 ok let's take a step back and be real about this.
Just imagine any other party, where this is an ok stance. I've typed many of these examples before but I dont mind showing you again.
IF - you bought internet from your ISP for a year. Then they shut down the service in June. And then they emailed you saying "Dear user, we will be shutting down. We will be refunding the money for the plan for the remaining half of the year. BUT. This money is essentially coming out of our pockets. So if you please don't mind, call your credit card company to pause the refund that would be appreciated."
Now - look at straight in the eyes. Tell me that you are not offended by that email.
If you cant at least at admit that, then we can't have a conversation.
That's a very unrealistic scenario. His refunds alone is a quarter million USD. Just let that sink in for a moment.
But regardless I agree with you, it's all a guessing game. But I'll leave you with this popular reddit post
It’s not Apollo that’s the problem. It’s the Mods. Any that took part in the blackout need to have their keys taken away. Site ban them, and move on.
I think it’s pretty simple. A developer was making money off Reddit with subscriptions disguised as tips. We have no real idea how much he was making along with all the other 3rd party apps. I seriously doubt it was a small amount. But I also don’t think it was millions and millions. He did and said some shady stuff. As did other developers. That said Reddit put an unrealistic price on API’s. That said Apollo and the others could have immediately filed a class action lawsuit against Reddit. But they all just shut down. Why? Why give up so suddenly and quickly? The whole thing stinks and should have been looked at in a legal way. I will still use Reddit. I enjoy the subreddits I am on. And honestly the improvements to the app the last year have made it easier.
Taking your example, the ISP might have to discontinue service for some reason outside of their control. If that's the case, it's actually possible that they are being compensated for that by whatever third party is causing the issue, or they might be covered by some policy. This means refunds would not come (at least entirely) out of the ISP pockets, they would come (at least in part) out of the compensation the ISP is receiving.
Since this case does involve a third party and does also involve an intermediary which deals with payments and refunds and since not everyone knows how those work, I don't find unwarranted to specify that the refund is not being compensated by any third party, which is what the "out of pocket" remark ultimately means.
Now, you might not like a letter asking you to forfeit the refund anyway and I agree it's IMHO not the most "elegant" of requests, but I'd say it's a pretty significant detail to know whether the seller has already been compensated somehow for that money or not.
theres no need to complicate the example. Theres no "third party". It's between you and the ISP. That's it. You paid them money. They stopped the service. They are begging you to not take the money that are now "his". How does that makes sense. It doesn't. It's fanboism.
I can’t look you in the eye. This is the internet. But I can absolutely say, no. That wouldn’t offend me in the slightest. I wouldn’t care less in fact. So long as I was getting my refund who the hell cares?!
The question is not whether the request to cancel the refund makes sense: as I stated I also don't like such request. The question is whether it makes sense to specify that the refund is out of the developer's pockets.
There are reasons and instances when a refund might be covered in part or in full by a third-party, making the refund not come entirely out of the seller's pockets. For this reason, it's actually meaningful to specify one way or another.
Imagine if the developer was asking for cancelling the refund but at the same time he's being covered in part or full by some Apple refund protection policy. I think it's fair to specify it's not the case since not everyone necessarily knows how those refunds work actually.
ok we can agree to disagree. But I think it's dishonest to think that if Apple for example did this, there wouldn't be a massive protest.
You can’t look at these two (or several) examples through the same lens though. It’s not so black and white. And it’s not at all as clear cut as that.
Firstly, this is an indie dev, not one of the worlds richest tech company or a multinational service provider.
Secondly, and possibly just as importantly, the way Reddit operated was underhand. There was absolutely no need to pull the rug like that. There was little the guy could do about losing what has been his main livelihood for 6ish years. I would feel the same if a much larger company treated a much smaller company the same way no matter who either of them were.
Thirdly, and vitally, the guy has just asked this question simply because he could, and some of his user base requested it. It’s largely irrelevant to anyone unless they sub, and even then only relevant if you specifically want to do it.
You seem to be fighting an issue that’s upset you, as if it’s massively affected you in some way. I could have sympathy for your cause if only I could understand what’s actually happened to you.
It doesn't actually affect me because I paid for Apollo but I dont have the sub so I cant even get a refund. I am just deeply concerned why a multi millionaire needs to guilt trip his users to donate him more money when no service will be provided. It's honestly quite vile to even type it out.
In the end, like your said perspectives matter. This big guy crushing "the little guy" narrative is absolutely insane. He's not a little guy. He gets gifted $7000 displays from his users just on a whim. He has earned multiple millions of US dollars in these 6 years. He's not having his livelihood taken from him. He's having a gravy train taken from him of which he freeloaded for many years. The guy is rich beyond dreams. He has converted all his users to his other pet apps and is making millions there. Just his REFUNDS alone is a quarter million dollars! Just think about that. This is a MASSIVE business. There's no little guy here.
Let this serve as a lesson to everyone. When an app uses another site’s API, don’t be shocked and amazed when the other site starts to charge real world money (or increase the price) to utilize it. The Empire changed the deal and pray it doesn’t change any further…
I feel bad for the Apollo team and feel they got the screw job, but let’s all take a step back and see the forest. Don’t use someone else’s API and then scream when they charge or increase the charge.
I feel bad for the Apollo team and feel they got the screw job, but let’s all take a step back and see the forest. Don’t use someone else’s API and then scream when they charge or increase the charge.
I have no idea if he’s a multimillionaire. Even if his business was making that kind of money it by no means means he was. It’s unlikely he was, but we won’t know. however at this time you’re just making things up rather than staying solid facts. I don’t know why.
He is an indie dev with barely any (if any) employees v’s Reddit. He’s clearly the little guy. Come on!
He made a successful app by using a freely available api. That’s not freeloading anything.
They withdrew the api without negotiation, leaving him stumped.
Who cares if was gifted anything that’s irrelevant.
This is beginning to sound a little like the green eyed monster.
I think that's the part you forgot. He had NO costs. And the reason that is? He didn't host his own servers. He freeloaded it off reddit's servers. This is where again, the details matter.
It’s been said a million times already, but I’ll reiterate for you. The backlash is because Reddit decided to up the charge from $0/mo to about $2million/month for Apollo and gave developers 30 days to comply.
Btw the “Apollo team” was one dev and another person who helped with some backend stuff. He was more than willing to pay for API usage, but not only were the charges much much higher than expected, it’s also unreasonable for any app dev (or team) to figure out a correct pricing model in 30 days and then dev that logic into the app, especially when many users have already locked in a 12-month subscription based on the previous API pricing (or lack thereof).
The “screaming” is due to Reddit leadership’s mishandling of the situation every step of the way and has nothing to do with Reddit choosing to charge for API usage.
No costs? Are you joking? You can’t have a serious conversation if you don’t understand how business works, or even life. Just because one thing was freely provided, that doesn’t mean everything was. You talk of details yet you don’t factor anything in other than the freely provided api.
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why is there a backlash for charging for servers that you own? Makes no sense. Reddit was giving away their servers forr free. Surely it's within their rights to withdraw them at will. They shouldve just pulled it over night, why even give 30 days?
Like if you lend your lawnmower to your neighbour and forgot about it for some time. You went to him one day to get it, do you also give him 30 days notice?