Powerbook and PowerMac Updates - October 19th?

[digitalbiker]

Java on Apple is slow compared to Windows. The sooner Intel PBs are released, the better for better Java performance.

Eclipse 3.1 on my PB isn't bad, but then its signficantly slower than running on Windows.

I don't think the poor Java performance on Apple has anything to do with the CPU. It is more a function of Apple's implementation of the JVM under OS X.

Unless there is a major update of Java when it is released for Intel OSX it should still run slower than the windows counterpart.

Same holds true for OpenGL. In general OpenGL is very good, however Apple's implementation under OS X is poor.

 

[igetbanned]

About DDR2

Concerning the cost of DDR2, I get it for the exact same price as DDR.

No 'Apple Tax' involved!

 

[simon.brunner]

IMHO something else is wrong with java in general.

I don't know if the codebase has reached it's 'bloat point of no return' or what, but java is slow on most platforms these days.

This is simply not true. Java performs rather well for example on Solaris. I did some testing running Tomcat on different platforms:

http://www.simonbrunner.com/java/performance.html

I don't claim that this is serious benchmarking, but it gives some indications on the general java performance of a platform. Note that the elsewise much Sun Blade 1500 with an single UltraSPARC IIIi at 1.06 GHz is nearly as fast as a Dual G5 at 1.8 GHz.

 

[0423379]

What's the point in having DDR 333 or 400MHz RAM for that matter (which they currently have). No one wants to talk about what a major embarrasement the powerbooks are. Celeron's have a faster bus for god's sake.

What i'll find amusing is if they actually do get the (OH BOY!) 200MHz bus, people will be freaking out over the performance gains since we've been stuck at 167 for a few years.

But this one goes to 11!

a 200mhz bus won't do you **** over a 166 with the same cpu. remember, with a "wider" bus you only enable more lanes of information. with more lanes and the brain can only handle so many cars/ so much info at the time... it's no point whining about bus speeds...

I swear to GOD that I know this for fact! I've spent YEARS overclocking both AMD and Intel computers. And the REAL difference in those two was when AMD went 64. even tho the 64 bit part of the cpu isn't as fast as dedicated 64 bit processors. it's still faster at 32 bit than any other pc based 32 cpu.

And up til Athlon 64 came out, the real pain in AMD processors wasn't the Bus speed. I could overclock a pally 1800+ or a Barton 2500+ to frickn 2.8 ghz. (last I checked they maxed out at 3.1) and that's super unstable and a clock with almost 70% increase) that son of a bitch would STILL fly!!
but the increase came when AMD got Dual Memory Controllers on the DIE!
so it's more to it than just FSB and Speed. Nowdays an A64 is running 200FSB with, cpu's at aprox 2-2.5 ghz.
I'd say a dualcore freescale still at 166mhz FSB would scare the living **** out of any INTEL based laptop. And regardless, I do believe that MOST PC laptops are running 333mhz busses and not 400. atleast no AMD. And it's not really a problem. it's more architecture, tweaks, how the cpu performs and the setup of the rig.

we also discovered that every processor has its "gold spot". a 1.8ghz cpu might not run any better at 230fsb vs. 200fsb (stock) when run at native clock speeds. This was quite fun 'cus I remember how the Athlon64 when it first came out, I had a motherboard that would do 300FSB and i got the best results fiddling around 250 FSB. and the next cpu I got was 200mhz slower and the sweespot was 245 at the same cpuclock speed as the 3200+. yeah ofcourse you get top results running 320FSB x 2000 on the multiplier if you got a cpu that can handle it... but I'm talking everyday use in a crashfree enviroment.

 

[PBGPowerbook]

Butts Bigglio I LIKE YOUR STYLE MAN!

 

[eric_n_dfw]

I don't think the poor Java performance on Apple has anything to do with the CPU. It is more a function of Apple's implementation of the JVM under OS X.

Unless there is a major update of Java when it is released for Intel OSX it should still run slower than the windows counterpart.

Very possible - my Mac at work is MUCH slower than my Linux PC (500Mhz G4 vs. 2.4GHz P4) so I cannot objectively compare Eclipse performance between them. (although it is surprisingly usable on my Mac)

I'm hoping that with the move to Intel, that the source code for the Linux versions of the JDK can be ported to OS X more easily and Apple will no longer have to "re-invent the wheel" for each release.

On a side note, it's pretty surprising to me that Java would be such a 2nd class citizen on OS X when WebObjects is a big user of it.

 

[igetbanned]

This is simply not true. Java performs rather well for example on Solaris. I did some testing running Tomcat on different platforms:

http://www.simonbrunner.com/java/performance.html

I don't claim that this is serious benchmarking, but it gives some indications on the general java performance of a platform. Note that the elsewise much Sun Blade 1500 with an single UltraSPARC IIIi at 1.06 GHz is nearly as fast as a Dual G5 at 1.8 GHz.

Wouldn't you think that java would run perfectly under Solaris?

Hmmmmm........

And regardless, I do believe that MOST PC laptops are running 333mhz busses and not 400. atleast no AMD.

Nope, Pentium M's run 400 or 533.

2M cache on the 533's.

 

[nagromme]

Hmm, I'm thinking: 10.4.3 will include a usable resolution independent display, similar to the one you can enable in Tiger with a bit of work

That will be GREAT when it happens--but I think we're talking Leopard. Developers need to get their apps ready for it or you have a very mixed bag. (Plus I think it will take Apple themselves longer to get their UI graphics truly ready. Which will, I hope, come with more consistency in window styles.)

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Wouldn't you think that java would run perfectly under Solaris?

Hmmmmm........

You might, but there are a ton more eyeballs on the Windows JVM so I'd bet it gets the most attention for optimizations.

 

[super mini (mac]

ibm chips?

in nthe post line it aid that the power macs are supposed to be the new ibm chips, what wasnt clear was if the new power BOOK chips will be the ibm chip also?

 

[lcde]

If your going to dream you might as well dream big.

I figured since they have been sampling AND freescale signed a new deal with Apple for further support why sign a deal for an old worn out G4.

I assume apple is freescales largest customer. they might hold off the dual core MPC8641 until january because powerbook shipments for christmas.

dream a little dream with me.

 

[0423379]

Nope, Pentium M's run 400 or 533.

2M cache on the 533's.

ahh that's right... I just stopped caring after I switched!
anyway... sucks to say that Intel got lucky on Dothan and now are using the same base structure for all its new cpu's
All dothan needed was a faster bus and dual memory controllers.. the architecture of that cpu is pretty awesome!

I'm not sure tho, but I don't think they can match AMD yet

for 7448 info....
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps...ncsg/06-20-05_MPC7448.html&title=News Release
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=0162468rH3bTdG8653
The e600 PowerPC core is virtually identical to the G4 core, but with enhancements to L2 cache and AltiVec implementation, and it is manufactured in 90nm technology. Software written for the MPC7447 and MPC7447A will run seamlessly on the MPC7448. MPC7448 can be a pin-for-pin compatible drop-in replacement for MPC7447A.

I'd say you could technically just solder on the 48, put in DDR400 memory and overclock the motherboard to 400fsb. most motherboards SHOULD handle that when the memory does... dunno if it's worth it tho... I'd rather risk a 2ghz overclock! with the 1mb cache I think that cpu would be a nice upgrade from todays powerbook. even at stock 1.7ghz

now I just wanna buy a mini mac and buy a 7448 from FreeScale... solder it on and see if it'll work! hell, even changing it to 2mb L3 cache would make that ****er fly even more! mohahah
KILLER mini-mac goin after imac ;D
too bad macs are so hard to overclock.... anyone know about any forums where they overclock macs? not the kits...

 

[Stella]

The guy asked for MY opinion.

if you want a private conversion, then sent a private message , don't conduct it on a public message board.

And THIS is my opinion...

I whole heartily disagree, Java performance on Windows is absolutely fine.. now that does depend on the speed of your machine. I'm using an average PC, average speed, and all is fine!

See how it works... other people start commenting on a public discussion..

The guy asked for MY opinion.

Now, if your experience is different, then that's YOUR opinion.

Java, is slow on windows, IMO.

See how that works?

 

[VicMacs]

i wonder why the 12 inch pb wont get a nicer upgrade... it sells more than the 17 inch from what I have seen...

anybody have sales numbers for the pbs?

 

[RobHague]

Why would Apple add PCI-Express to the PowerMac line? I have to wonder.

There isnt anything out for the Mac that uses PCI-express... none of the low end cards will make any use of it, hell the hi-end cards now dont make proper use of it. Soooo Apple will be re-hashing the entire line, getting hold of X800's and X600's? and whatever else in PCI-express mac compatible form just so they can asy 'look PCI-express' with BTO's ???? What about soundcards, and everything else... where are the mac versions to make PCI-express worthwhile and usable on Mac? How long will we have to wait to see them arrive - Intel is coming..

What will happen to PCI-X? PowerMac is aimed at professionals yeah?... will PCI-X cards work with their new PCI-express PowerMac....

Also why would they add DDR2? iMac and PowerBook/iBook whatever sure - it uses less power = less heat = good news for small systems. The PowerMac's are not small systems, and they do not run at a bus speed that would being any performance advantages - isnt DDR2 still running at higher latancys too?

Surley a Dual Core G5 will cost more than what a standard G5 would cost, to produce and of course the yields of chips. So they are going to stuff 2 into each machine and keep the price the same? Oh and of course, meet demand. Wouldnt that make something like the Dual Dual 2.0Ghz own previous PowerMac's just because it now has 4 cores! And at the very least, 2 if the software is not multi-cpu aware.

 

[igetbanned]

if you want a private conversion, then sent a private message , don't conduct it on a public message board.

And THIS is my opinion...

I whole heartily disagree, Java performance on Windows is absolutely fine.. now that does depend on the speed of your machine. I'm using an average PC, average speed, and all is fine!

See how it works... other people start commenting on a public discussion..

We've just gone around in a complete circle!

Neato!

You might, but there are a ton more eyeballs on the Windows JVM so I'd bet it gets the most attention for optimizations.

I doubt it.

Sun doesn't like Microsoft.

Microsoft doesn't like Sun.

They simply tolerate each other.

Microsoft even attempted to exclude support for the JVM on XP, until Sun starting making noise.

I doubt Sun is going the 'extra mile' to make sure that the JVM runs on Windows better than their own server software.

 

[0423379]

Why would Apple add PCI-Express to the PowerMac line? I have to wonder.

There isnt anything out for the Mac that uses PCI-express... none of the low end cards will make any use of it, hell the hi-end cards now dont make proper use of it. Soooo Apple will be re-hashing the entire line, getting hold of X800's and X600's? and whatever else in PCI-express mac compatible form just so they can asy 'look PCI-express' with BTO's ???? What about soundcards, and everything else... where are the mac versions to make PCI-express worthwhile and usable on Mac? How long will we have to wait to see them arrive - Intel is coming..

What will happen to PCI-X? PowerMac is aimed at professionals yeah?... will PCI-X cards work with their new PCI-express PowerMac....

Also why would they add DDR2? iMac and PowerBook/iBook whatever sure - it uses less power = less heat = good news for small systems. The PowerMac's are not small systems, and they do not run at a bus speed that would being any performance advantages - isnt DDR2 still running at higher latancys too?

Surley a Dual Core G5 will cost more than what a standard G5 would cost, to produce and of course the yields of chips. So they are going to stuff 2 into each machine and keep the price the same? Oh and of course, meet demand. Wouldnt that make something like the Dual Dual 2.0Ghz own previous PowerMac's just because it now has 4 cores! And at the very least, 2 if the software is not multi-cpu aware.

I think you've got PCI-X and PCI-E mixed up. PCI-E is PCI-Express...
and apple already HAS pci-x, pci-x is just a faster PCI bus used in servers. for quite some time now.
and PCI-E is just one or two ports. it doesn't mean the whole system has to be redesigned! there will still be regular PCI hell powermacs hardly have PCI slots anyway

and DDR running at 533mhz or 266mhz if you want, won't have CAS2.5 it'll be more like CAS3. And at memory modules at 2gb I don't think there is much of a difference. I've never really tried this... But I got to test an Intel with DDR2 and it has some advantages. I'm sure it's faster when the mac goes dual dualcore. and it'll also get Apple one step closer to MacTel. Intel will strictly be using DDR2. Where as AMD is still stuck with DDR.
but I agree with you a little, it's just a sales gimmick. But for technology to develop, one must use the new technology avaliable. or we'll be using DDR until march 2030.

 

[nagromme]

i wonder why the 12 inch pb wont get a nicer upgrade... it sells more than the 17 inch from what I have seen...

I like the "12-inch being scrapped, hello 13-inch widescreen" theory

 

[capone2]

Apple to hold special press conference in New York Oct. 19

pro macs and powerbooks ??

 

[cal6n]

Apple to hold special press conference in New York Oct. 19
pro macs and powerbooks ??

Link please?

 

[tekmoe]

pro macs and powerbooks ??

where are you seeing this information?

 

[0423379]

pro macs and powerbooks ??

you bet!!!

X700, HD, FrontRow, DDR2....
and the 12" prolly becomes a 13" with X600 and same specs as above.
I'm almost sure the 7448 will be sported with a 200mhz fsb.
Not safe to say if it'll be dualcore, I DOUBT it tho.... :s

as for powermacs it's evident. DDC with X600 and X850 option.
DDR2 and no FrontRow.

 

[lcde]

False Alarm

where are you seeing this information?

Its an apple seminar for "Affordable Storage Solution"


http://www.seminars.apple.com/cgi-b...wa/eventsByEventSeries?s=20&eventSerieId=5697



if that is the case it might as well be in orlando also:
http://www.apple.com/education/hed/educause/

 

[djkny]

you bet!!!

X700, HD, FrontRow, DDR2....
and the 12" prolly becomes a 13" with X600 and same specs as above.
I'm almost sure the 7448 will be sported with a 200mhz fsb.
Not safe to say if it'll be dualcore, I DOUBT it tho.... :s

as for powermacs it's evident. DDC with X600 and X850 option.
DDR2 and no FrontRow.

total pipedream.

 

[RHMMMM]

Here's the link for next week - NEW MACS!!! (I hope)

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/10/14/nypro/index.php


Contents:

Apple to hold special press conference in New York Oct. 19

By Jim Dalrymple jdalrymple@maccentral.com

Apple Computer is once again gathering the press together as it rolls out new innovations. The latest invitation-only event will be held in New York City on October 19, 2005 on the eve of PhotoPlus Expo. Apple doesn’t say exactly what the press conference will be about, but the invitation sent to MacCentral asks to join them as “we unveil Apple’s latest pro innovations.”

This will be the third special product focused event that Apple has held in just over a month. On September 7, Apple launched the iPod nano and just this week they unveiled the video iPod and new iMac.