PowerBook G5 - 'Some Time'

[SiliconAddict]

Something tells me that even if 7 GHz Uberbook G15's came out tomorrow you still wouldn't be satisfied.

Go ahead and switch. It won't hurt my feelings.

I'd be satisfied at seeing a G5 PowerBook that is somewhat future poof being a 64-bit CPU, and that has performance matching or at least nearly matching its competition. The single barefeats.com benchmark comparison between last falls G4 PowerBooks, a bunch of Pentium M's, and 2 mobile Pentium 4's showed that the G4 was anywhere from 20%-30% to a whopping 50% slower then the competition. No freaking way in hell I'm spending aprox $3,500 (Pricing it out it was closer to $4,000) on a 17" PowerBook with that kind of performance gap. Screw all the cute little special touches Apple puts in their systems. If it can't even keep up with the competition why should I shell out over 3 grand on a laptop?
I couldn't care less about your feelings. I do care that there are other PC users that feel the exact same way I feel about the PowerBooks craptastic performance. Apple puts on a nice show of how sexy the PowerBook is (And is is.) and what features they have. (and its packed.) But when it comes to the systems speed....well..maybe I missed it on their site but I’ve NEVER seen a recent benchmark comparing speeds equal to the PC platform. It’s a misdirection game on the part of Apple.

[Update]
http://www.barefeats.com/al15b.html

 

[gotohamish]

bro that is an awesome idea. case bending, NO MORE! to bad carbon fiber in its raw form cost around $50 per square foot.

Sssshhhh... Don't tell Arn, he may discover a world carbon fibre shortage article

 

[cb911]

hhmmm... they've been saying that for quite a while now... i'm feeling that they are just buying time, in case their release schedule is messed up because of unavailability of chips.

but it would be reasonable to see another G4 PowerBook release. think about it. the ones just realeased are only Rev. B, and if they released 1.8GHz PowerBook G4s that would probably keep people going... it's just that as soon as they released the G5 PowerMac no one could stop dreaming about having that in a PowerBook.

i think they also want to keep this really hush-hush. after what happened with the Rev.A AlBooks.... there were whispers that they've have a Moto chip with all sorts of goodies like increased clock speed, 1MB L2cache and killer stuff like that. well i was follwing those rumors very closely getting all hyped up on this killer chip that Moto was working on, and then it wasn't all that great anyway. but i'd much prefer that Apple keep the lid on the PowerBook G5... and then just surprise us with whatever they've got.

 

[garybooberry]

The PowerBook (especially at the prices they are asking) is supposed to be Apple's "top of the line" desktop replacement. The problem is, their current pro desktop is so wickedly fast that their laptop line isn't able to match par with it anymore.

Sure, the PowerBook is still the choice of videographers, photographers and designers on the go, but they arel putting processors in them that are a scant 250 MHz above the EOL'd G4 tower.

Three thousand dollars kids - for a 1.5 G4 processor. I'm sure there is market for these laptops, I'm just not it.

 

[Spagolli94]

Oh the pain! The horror!

Joswiak made similar comments before, with the same "not anytime soon" line. I'll look for it.

Def. not good news...

Edit: Here is the MacCentral Article .



That was from June 2003 btw. Not much has changed in almost a year.

Sure it has... The G4 PB is a whopping 10% (or whatever) faster!

 

[Fitzcaraldo]

Portable

I concur. I'm a professional editor who has both a desktop and a laptop. To me, I would gain more benefit from a dual G4 17" Powerbook than a single G5 Powerbook. Nonetheless, I'm upgrading my 1ghz TiBook to a 1.5ghz Albook. 50% speed increase is worth it.

It seems to me that the people who do all the whining are the very people who don't actually -need- the machines. Its about dick measuring. Single Processor G4s, clock for clock, aren't that much slower than a single processor G5 -- at least on the stats I've seen.

I quite fancy the idea of a portable desktop for the purpose you mention. By this i mean the un-compromised power of the desktop combined with a piggyback clamshell screen and keyboard. An altogether better thought out portability with built in tough-box qualities would seem a nice little niche product for the traveling creative with a car. Space for a module in the keyboard (jog shuttle, or a master fader) would be nice too.

Fitzcaraldo

 

[stockscalper]

Exactly. The bus is the major problem given the increased speed and hence increased heat generation.

Thank you for saying that. I was going to, but you beat me to it.

I read about the "Mhz myth" but the real myth is that the 970fx is "so much hotter" than the G4 running at equiv speeds. The only *facts* that anyone quotes with links show the G5 and G4 using roughly equiv power at equiv speeds. For all the people saying that it is a "heat pump" compared to the G4, please show us a link. There are plenty of links from IBM on here showing the opposite. The bus is another issue of course.

If Apple were to put a G5 in a Powerbook don't expect it to run at speeds any faster than the current G4. The frontside bus would run at 233 Mhz and the chip around 1.4 to 1.6 Ghz. At those speeds the battery drain is better than the current G4 and the heat output manageable. The speed increase would be modest and noticeable. The problem with using the G5 at this time is multifold. First, they aren't in great enough production. Second, some of the supporting components are in short supply at this time. Third, the marketing folks at Apple are not pleased with the current form facor that is being used in the prototypes. As has been pointed out above there will be heat from the bus and other components and the case has to be redesigned to promote air circulation and heat dissapation. What has been shown so far are cases that are 1.25 to 1.4 inches thick, much thicker than Apple wants to see in the production model. The new G5's will not be as thin as the TI or AL books, but they are shooting for less than 1.2" in thickness and with a design that will look radically different from any laptop on the market. There all kinds of different looks being shown now, some look crappy, but some really look futuristic. By the time they get all these issues worked out IBM will likely be on the next generation 64 bit chip, the 60 micron process (they're working on it parallel with the 970 FX) and that would be my guess for what you will see in a laptop.

 

[gotohamish]

I quite fancy the idea of a portable desktop for the purpose you mention. By this i mean the un-compromised power of the desktop combined with a piggyback clamshell screen and keyboard. An altogether better thought out portability with built in tough-box qualities would seem a nice little niche product for the traveling creative with a car. Space for a module in the keyboard (jog shuttle, or a master fader) would be nice too.

Fitzcaraldo

I see your point, however, I think the issue is more than WANT. It's still about NEED.

I NEED a portable for my work and travel. I WANT a G5. Well, know what? I can't have one. So if I absolutely HAVE to have a new computer, I'd get a Powerbook. Then upgrade to the G5 model later. NEED and WANT are powerful things.

Let's do benchmarks for NEED vs WANT.

 

[JtheLemur]

1. A BLADE SERVER REQUIRES A 'BLADE CENTER' TO OPERATE.
2. A BLADE CENTER HAS A HUGE POWER SUPPLY
3. A BLADE CENTER HAS HUGE FANS.
4. A BLADE CENTER HAS HUGE COOLING CAPABILITIES (SEE #3).
5. A BLADE CENTER HAS HUGE AREA, UNLIKE A POWERBOOK (SEE #4).

6. Turn off caps lock.

7. All a blade server is missing to operate on its own technically is a power supply and cooling.

8. Obviously and regardless of support structure needed, the point was IBM has shoehorned dual 970s into a blade form factor. If they can do that, Apple can get one into a PowerBook form factor.

9. Relax.

 

[Nemesis]

Welcome!

Oh the pain! The horror!

Edit: Here is the MacCentral Article .

That was from June 2003 btw. Not much has changed in almost a year.

Welcome to Apple's world.
Those guys INDEED have a G5 PBook, but still think they can milk some money out that old G4 cow ...

 

[Nemesis]

he frontside bus would run at 233 Mhz and the chip around 1.4 to 1.6 Ghz.

Sorry, but that's bullsh*t. PC laptops run at faster processor speeds and have faster busses, and nobody complains about it. And they're pretty THIN too, even with DVD burner. Thise new Toshibas and Sony's kick ass!
So, lets make some sense, please.

 

[Fitzcaraldo]

Well... yeah... so do I... but... oh, you know what I mean!

Yes we know what you mean

Power and portability will always be an issue, and handle on desktops don't quite answer the need they address? The current Desktops don't fulfill my needs and powerbooks address an entirely different crowd. while i continue to want (=Need for the laid back chilled types) a truly portable desktop would suit me very nicely for doing the prep work while i wait for the power i need to fulfill my creative ideas.

 

[SiliconAddict]

The PowerBook (especially at the prices they are asking) is supposed to be Apple's "top of the line" desktop replacement. The problem is, their current pro desktop is so wickedly fast that their laptop line isn't able to match par with it anymore.

Sure, the PowerBook is still the choice of videographers, photographers and designers on the go, but they arel putting processors in them that are a scant 250 MHz above the EOL'd G4 tower.

Three thousand dollars kids - for a 1.5 G4 processor. I'm sure there is market for these laptops, I'm just not it.

Mhz is relative. I hoping no one here is expecting a 2Ghz+ G5 CPU in a PowerBook when they are released. But even a 1.5-1.6Ghz G5 will most likely be able to kick out performance superior to a 1.5 G4 simply because they support a FSB greater then what is being currently offered by the G4.
And, at least for me, I'm not expecting Apple's PowerBook line to jump across the 2Ghz line anytime soon. Personally I'm OK with that, as long as they bring the rest of the dang system up to a respectable speed so the combined system speed is comparable to a PC laptop.
The entire PowerBook line needs a major overhaul and my growing fear is that to do that Apple is going back to the drawing board, which means a time frame greater then last falls 1 year est until a G5 would hit the market. I hope to god I'm wrong but unless Jobs displays a working G5 PowerBook at WWDC with a release timeframe of 4th quarter, I'm starting to think I could be right.

 

[eSnow]

If Apple were to put a G5 in a Powerbook don't expect it to run at speeds any faster than the current G4. The frontside bus would run at 233 Mhz and the chip around 1.4 to 1.6 Ghz. At those speeds the battery drain is better than the current G4 and the heat output manageable. [...] As has been pointed out above there will be heat from the bus and other components and the case has to be redesigned to promote air circulation and heat dissapation. What has been shown so far are cases that are 1.25 to 1.4 inches thick,

I believe, you are contradicting yourself here. If the battery drain is lower for a 1.4 - 1.6Ghz 970FX than a 7447A (which is highly likely), then the power uptake of the CPU is lower as well. Which means less heat given off than in current PBs.

Apple should be able to move the system controller to a 90nm process if this is the chip that produces so much heat, instead of waiting another 18 month till IBM gets the design down to 65nm. At least some bright heads at Apple have to notice that the G4 is bandwidth-starved - 233Mhz DDR is much better than 167Mhz DDR with a hacked RAM interface.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Current Powerbook G5 prototype

 

[stockscalper]

Not contradicting myself; the power drain at 1.4 ghz is around 12 watts, which compares favorably to the G4 at 22 or 23 watts. However, when you crank it up to 1.8 ghz it jumps considerably, plus the heat really pumps up at that speed. Because of those issues, it's not practical for them to use the G5 at speeds faster than 1.4 to 1.6 at this time.

 

[mkwilson68]

Missing the point?

The real issue here is that we all want Apple to do well, right?

Currently, their PB's are destroyed performance-wise by the (albeit largely terrible) wintel laptops. This makes it hard to improve the sales numbers. Of course we all want a PB G5 with 8 hrs battery life with higher res screens etc. And of course the existing G4 PB's are fast enough for the vast majority of ordinary people. But many PB users are professionals in media businesses, and performance for them (us) is a need, not just a want.

So if Apple's SALES are to improve, they need the PR and performance of a G5 PB.

I too fear that we may be in for a long wait though - the G5 is still a pretty new chip and top-notch portables (and let's face it, the PB's, while not that quick, are the best designed laptops in the world) are about a gazzilion times harder to design and manufacture than desktops... and we're not exactly getting those by the boatload these days are we.

All I can say to Apple is: make them worth the wait please.

 

[stockscalper]

Sorry, but that's bullsh*t. PC laptops run at faster processor speeds and have faster busses, and nobody complains about it. And they're pretty THIN too, even with DVD burner. Thise new Toshibas and Sony's kick ass!
So, lets make some sense, please.

Yes, people do complain about battery life and heat issues. Have you held one of the PC laptops? They blow hot air out side vents like hot exhaust out of the rear of a Ferrari. Plus battery life is nil at those high speeds. And have you noticed how thick the cases are? Between 1.5 and 1.7 inches, not nice and thin like the Macs. The Centrinos do get better battery life and are thinner, but the clock and bus speeds are much lower too, more in line with the Macs.

The bus speed I quoted is a fast as is practical keeping in balance speed of the cpu and battery and heat issues.

 

[uzombie]

agreed!

Yes, people do complain about battery life and heat issues. Have you held one of the PC laptops? They blow hot air out side vents like hot exhaust out of the rear of a Ferrari. Plus battery life is nil at those high speeds. And have you noticed how thick the cases are? Between 1.5 and 1.7 inches, not nice and thin like the Macs. The Centrinos do get better battery life and are thinner, but the clock and bus speeds are much lower too, more in line with the Macs....

I sold off my 1stGen PowerbookG4 because it was too hot, the battery lasted 2 hours (if that) and you couldn't play iTunes with the lid closed (there was no utility to disable the mag latch). Assuming the iPod was the solution to the latter, I still felt the powerbook was not quite ready-for-primetime. (Peeling paint, powerbook lettering transferred to lid, poor airport reception, key marks on screen, flexing lid, bad hinges, powersupply cord failure, power jack failures ...)

IMHO, the G5 will remain a staple for the workstation. Apple won't create a laptop that supercedes its bread-n-butter: the venerable, but loud, G5 desktop. Not yet anyway....

(Wait, one more soapbox moment)

So, Apple, do it right. Make a quad-G5 desktop, and a dual-G5 laptop. But please, include Bluetooth and don't make it an option!

And where are the Desktop revisions???

Done.

 

[Trab]

8. Obviously and regardless of support structure needed, the point was IBM has shoehorned dual 970s into a blade form factor. If they can do that, Apple can get one into a PowerBook form factor.

If only it was that simple... There's still a big difference between fitting stuff into a 1U blade server format versus a notebook, especially a thin notebook like the Powerbooks. I have an old Sony laptop with a ~700Mhz Intel chip in it, and that thing gets pretty hot after an hour's worth of processing. I can only imagine what a high-end P4 or G5 chip would do.

Getting rid of that excess heat is not a simple task, and I'm willing to bet that Apple isn't willing to go the route that most PC laptop makers go, in having a 'portable' notebook that weighs as much as a boat anchor and has a leaf blower inside it to vent the heat out.

 

[jamilecrire]

WTF?

I would like a desktop replacement that can adequately run Pro Tools. The powerbooks don't even come close, even with the updates. I would love it if I could reduce my audio hardware to just a g5 powerbook with a firewire interface and a small rack of outboard gear. Ahhhh...just dreaming.

Your sig says you run a dual 500MHz G4 but a 1.5GHz Powerbook won't meet your needs? I call BS. I have a P-III 1.13GHZ that is 2 years old and it is more than enough for everything I need in Windows/Linux. I am getting a Thinkpad T41 anyway because the Centrinos are very fast (1MB Cache does make a difference) and it is thin (I cannot stand trackpads so the Point-Stick is my preference).

I have a G4 Tower QS 733 and an iBook 933 (G3). The G3 kicks the sh_t out of my tower so I primarily use my iBook and ignore my 22" Cinema Display. I will buy a Powerbook once they have a G5 in them. Until then my iBook will work fine.

 

[otter-boy]

8. Obviously and regardless of support structure needed, the point was IBM has shoehorned dual 970s into a blade form factor. If they can do that, Apple can get one into a PowerBook form factor.

Quick comparison:

Xserve G5 (up to dual proc.)-1.73 inches (4.4 cm) high by 17.6 inches (44.7 cm) wide by 28 inches (71.1 cm) deep = 852.54 in^3 @ 33-37 lbs

PB17- Height: 1.0 inch (2.6 cm) by Width: 15.4 inches (39.2 cm) by Depth: 10.2 inches (25.9 cm) = 157.08 in^3 @ 6.9 lbs

PB12 - Height: 1.18 inches (3.0 cm) by Width: 10.9 inches (27.7 cm) by Depth: 8.6 inches (21.9 cm) = 110.61 in^3 @ 4.6 lbs

the overall volume of the Xserve is about 5.4 times bigger than the PB17 and 7.7 times bigger than the PB12. Remember that the internal volume of the PBs are greatly reduced due to the screen and keyboard which do not have analogous components in the Xserve (whereas you could say the HD, DVD drives, etc, are analogous between the two).

That Apple can get two G5s into something at least 5.4 times larger, does not mean that they can put it into a PB at the moment. However, the low 970fx yields could be creating a ripple effect across the pro lines, pushing back PM and PB updates.

 

[1macker1]

I for one am waiting for a G5. Do i need it now,nope. But the 64bit machine will last a lonnng time. Speaking for my self, i dont plan on buying a new computer every 2 or 3 years. I want the G5 because i know it's here for a while. It's an investment in the things to come.

 

[john123]

Hey! The current 1.5Ghz laptop is high performance!

No, it's not...

It's frustrating to see how many people insist that the current offerings provide more than enough power for any user.

If that's the case, then why is there any reason for G5s in the first place?

The reality is that for intensive tasks, the G4 lags. PC laptops -- heavier, uglier, etc. as they may be -- offer a more powerful mobile experience. I contend that anyone who disagrees really hasn't used PCs all that much in the first place.

The simply G5 helped Apple catch up with a performance gap with PCs that has been growing ever since the introduction of the G3. And now that Apple is more on par with its PC counterparts in terms of desktops, getting that chip into laptops needs to be a top priority, because informed power users (like me!) won't buy one of these current PowerBooks.

 

[Bhennies]

Your sig says you run a dual 500MHz G4 but a 1.5GHz Powerbook won't meet your needs? I call BS. I have a P-III 1.13GHZ that is 2 years old and it is more than enough for everything I need in Windows/Linux. I am getting a Thinkpad T41 anyway because the Centrinos are very fast (1MB Cache does make a difference) and it is thin (I cannot stand trackpads so the Point-Stick is my preference).

I have a G4 Tower QS 733 and an iBook 933 (G3). The G3 kicks the sh_t out of my tower so I primarily use my iBook and ignore my 22" Cinema Display. I will buy a Powerbook once they have a G5 in them. Until then my iBook will work fine.

Trust me...it will NOT meet my needs. I've played around with the (now outdated) 1.33 17" set up on Pro Tools. It's not even close to enough. Only a g5 will allow the plug-in count that I need. By the way, my dual 500 tower doesn't do the trick either- not even close- in fact I've put my music on hold until I get a new g5 because I'm running Pro Tools at 99% CPU power with 1024 buffer and I still get that fun little message "CPU out of power". I have 2 record labels waiting for my EP, and I'm waiting for a new g5 and some inspiration.