PowerMacs and PowerBooks Delays?

[satty]

Has anyone seen a Xserve G5 yet?

Many here are talking about Xserves running G5 and it wouldn't be a problem to use the 970FX also in a PB.

First, I wouldn't compare a Xserve with a PB.
Second, the estimated shipment (6 to 8 weeks) did never change since the first announcement in January. Has someone a confirmed date when the first Xserves will actually be shipped?

To me it appears they have still some issues with the Xserve G5.

 

[James_C]

G5 Powerbooks are not coming any time soon. Apple has said that they are working on them, but they have to resolve the engineering issues. They have also stated that there is plenty of life left in the G4. That's why I believe that we will see one more G4 Powerbook speedbump before the G5 Powerbook. In my view it is very unlikely we will see any G5 Powerbook announcement before September 2004.

 

[Gaffa Bug]

Not PCI-X

PCI-Express x16
Well could be, but ATI has allready finished the cards (native x16 PCI-Express), it might be because there isnt enough cards.

Thanks for the correction Army_Guy ;

 

[UKMacBod]

It's frustrating that (for whatever reason) upgraded PowerMacs are not forthcoming - at least not for the next few weeks or so!

IBM are producing quality chips - Apple need their Pro line of desktops upgraded.

 

[windowsblowsass]

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.

actually there would be fans how do you think the water wold be cooled by magic? its called a raidiator

im not saying there arent advantages to water cooling just saying it uses fans to

 

[Steven1621]

G5's earlier then expected?

It would seem to me that if Apple was going to put out an updated G4 PB, it would be here soonier than the end of April. It probably wouldn't be a ground breaking update. Most likely, there would be a speed bump. Possibly faster HD's and a faster Superdrive. I would expect the new ATI video card to be in there as well. Outside of the purported ATI shortages, I see no reason why they couldn't have this out by the end of March or earlier. This leads me to think, though rather wishfully, that a G5 might make it into the PB in late April. A single 1.6 Ghz chip might be able to run cool enough for the portable. This is certainly a very spectulative guess, but it just seems that a G4 update shouldn't take that long.

 

[RBMaraman]

At this rate we might as well just wait till September for the promised 3 GHz chips. Also, I don't care about a G4 Powerbook update. No way I'd buy until it has a G5 in it.

I think you might be right. We all got used to somewhat frequent updates with the G4 chip, but maybe something different is happening with the G5.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Apple and IBM surprised us with a 3GHZ chip next month.

 

[JamesDPS]

What will a slightly faster PM G5 do for you that the current one won't?
QUOTE]

Nothing, it'll just do it faster 😉

Actually, as a composer (using Logic), there are things that a faster machine will do that a slower one (even with all other things being nearly equal) can't, namely number of simultaneous independent samples, number of simultaneous effects, etc., which rely on processor as well as RAM. Sure, I guess I could buy a PM and a wintel machine with Gigastudio, but as many have also said, I'd rather not buy a 6-month old computer for "new computer" prices, and I want a complete studio in one PM! A TB of internal storage would be sweet, too 😀 (but clearly that's irrelevant with those nifty LaCie FW800 externals).

Not that I mean to step on any toes -- I definitely like your line of thinking! 😎

 

[AidenShaw]

No, not HyperTransport !

including a HyperTransport bus speed that could be as high as 800 Mhz (if the chip is 1.6 GHz and the do a 2-to-1 ratio.)

The HyperTransport bus is *not* the memory bus or the Front Side Bus. The FSB is the one that currently is at 2-to-1 (although other ratios are possible).

Check this picture at http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html:

HyperTransport is between boxes 4, 6 and 7. The 2-to-1 FSB is link #1 and #2.

HyperTransport can run at 200, 400, 500, 600 or 800 MHz. It runs at 800 MHz in all of the Power Mac G5s.... (see http://www.cotsjournalonline.com/pdfs/2003/06/cots06_hardassets3.pdf).

 

[ultrafiel]

Let's be optimistic

Ok, so I'm still waiting to buy my G5 tower. I want one now, but it's not going to happen until the update whenever that is. In the meantime, I get more money, and can buy more RAM and whatever when the time comes. Good thing is that if these rumors are true, then new video cards will be out, and possibly they will put PCI Express for those new cards. ATI's roadmap shows that there new cards will have two versions for each model one AGP8x and the other PCI Express, this will happen for the next year, until it is only PCI Express. (My info comes from a linked story through slashdot). Also, if the whole line goes dual that would be great, as then the low-end becomes much more attractive and saves me money. If it is dual then it should be close to what the dual 2.0 is today, but at a much cheaper price. As long as I have 8 slots for RAM and some PCI-X then I'm good to go. So let's look on the bright side. I'm all up for models coming out soon though, my birthday is next week, that would be great, although I'm not counting on it.

 

[TRiPod]

the delay is worth saving the money on the graphics card for me. i dont need 256mb, but i do need 128. this is gonna save me lots.

 

[Grimace]

I think one of the most undervalued aspects of a computer is the hard drive speed. Put in 10,000RPM drives!!!

 

[ryanw]

DUAL CPU laptop?
What at under 1" you must be joking, what about your battery life, it isnt Apple to do this.

Part of the marketing campaign for the DUAL PowerBook could be that you could take it with you on camping trips. Show a guy taking a few pictures early morning, come back to the camp site open the powerbook, kinda' warm his hands up as he touchs the powerbook. Dump his morning pictures into iPhoto, close the top, flip it upside down n' put on a pot of coffee and start frying eggs right on the belly of the laptop.. cut to him wiping down the powerbook, throwing it in his bag and then to the sunrise with him in a hamock sipping his steaming coffee with a big smile on his face. Fade to black with white apple logo center screen. Like on the back of the powerbook.

That actually sounds like fun. I might have to make that short film....

 

[invaLPsion]

It's so obvious!

Apple wouldn't have any problems cooling a dual 2.5 GHz. But they might have problems cooling a dual 3 GHz! People, the next updates aren't going to be up to dual 2.5, they're going to be up to at least dual 3.0! They will keep these around until MWSF 2004, then update to the G6 at 4+GHz.

Me and NeatGekko are going to be right on this one. These will be the specs of the next update:
1. up to dual 3.0 GHz
2. 4 models
3. dual 3.0 GHz will be $3000+.

As NeatGekko says, cheers! 😀

 

[WM.]

LOL! This has to be one of the funnier posts on these forums. I'm definitely a math-and-science kind of guy, but gimme a break! Lemme translate some of this:

Originally posted by mdriftmeyer
Known: Conductive Heat Transfer clearly shows that the more current required to power a surface area the greater amount of heat that black body surface will emit.

"More power = more heat."

Experimentations: The Convective Heat Transfer of this volumetric housing for the Workstation will require a flow increase from fans to move the increased amount of conductive heat transfer these processors will produce.

"More heat ---> bigger fans."

For a single CPU this is not an issue because the system will emit lower amounts of heat dissipation than the prior 970 CPU.

"Newer design = less heat = less problems with heat."

The cost of these systems must be the same or less than their predecessors at similiar configurations, in order to be competitive within the market.

"People like cheap stuff."

The time to market cannot be delayed too long in order to maintain a positive market perception.

"It looks bad when you don't update your products often enough."

Suppliers have to be able to provide parts in quantities that are on par or greater than those supplied for the current system configurations, assuming a market growth curve.

"You need parts to make Power Macs."

Acceptable heat measurements have to be tested, in various work environments to determine the feasibility of hardware designs that will house these new CPUs.

"You gotta test stuff before you release it."

In the end, if the market pressure to roll out new systems supercedes the option of Quad Processor Systems than a fallback design has to be rolled out, in place of the desired configuration,

"You gotta have a Plan B."

until such systems exceed the Factors of Safety (FS) required of them for end user consumption.

"Customers don't like products that are too hot."

I'm not trying to be an *******, but really, you don't need to use all them big fancy words to say what everyone else already has...

Thanks for the laugh
WM

 

[Soire]

Apple wouldn't have any problems cooling a dual 2.5 GHz. But they might have problems cooling a dual 3 GHz! People, the next updates aren't going to be up to dual 2.5, they're going to be up to at least dual 3.0! They will keep these around until MWSF 2004, then update to the G6 at 4+GHz.

Me and NeatGekko are going to be right on this one. These will be the specs of the next update:
1. up to dual 3.0 GHz
2. 4 models
3. dual 3.0 GHz will be $3000+.

As NeatGekko says, cheers! 😀

Just as he said they'd be out by the end of February?

The more people blabber about how 3Ghz G5s are coming out any day now, the more likely it seems nothing is going to be released until june, and then we won't get our hands onto them until september. What misery...

 

[Vlade]

P4EE die size: 237mm^2
970fx die size: 60mm^2

And the 100 watts for the P4 is max, 25 watts for a 970fx would be nominal, max is something like 50-55 watts (each).

That is the 130nm die, the 90 will be smaller (for the P4). But really die size isn't that big of a factor in cooling, it is mostly the HSF and case cooling.

And I always am talking max power, because thats what apple and intel have to go by, because there are millions of people that are using the full power with programs like Folding and SETI. And I am almost positive that 25 watts is max for the 90nm 970, and 50 was max for the 130nm version

 

[Vlade]

The standard cooler will run the CPU at 65 Degrees C when idle and roughly 75 when under load thats damn hot considering the use of a heatsink that big and a fan thats as load as a jet engine (45-55db's). Really you liquid cool the b##stard and run in in silence I say, like I said air-cooling is dead. Apple is concerned with the noise I think.

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.

 

[Florida Gator]

Im not trying to make a technical argument here, but wouldn’t from a marketing standpoint, a G5 Powerbook make a lot of sense? I mean wouldn’t apple be trying to rush them out asap?

 

[Rocketman]

Nice thought but marketable suicide! What use would a powermac be if you could have the same performance as a portable!?!

That is a bad thing how?

The future is portables AS primary machines and peripherals for your desktop work.

I have been using a portable as a primary machine for about 3 years now and couldn't be happier. When I need a large monitor, I plug it in. When I need RAID I plug it in.

If you need anything faster there is always an X-serve system (or a 4U set of X-serves) to handle fiber channel or fast math.

Rocketman

 

[skinEman23]

Im not trying to make a technical argument here, but wouldn’t from a marketing standpoint, a G5 Powerbook make a lot of sense? I mean wouldn’t apple be trying to rush them out asap?

a rushed product is often a crappy product. I'd rather have a quality G4 than a rushed G5 with all sorts of kinks.

 

[ionas]

why should that be impossible?

...yet my bet is Apple wants a G5 Powerbook to be as fast as a desktop and quite possibly be the first EVER to bring out a dual processor laptop. This is DEFINITELY something Apple would LOVE to do as it's a virtual impossibility with PC hardware and close to that with the G5...

it is possible with the pentium-m / centrino; intel has to release a new chipset, and its done.

it wont happen, cause it doesnt make much sense (personally i would welcome a powerbook system with 4 1ghz g5 more than one with a single 2ghz, but that wont just happen imho)

 

[G5support.com]

While no specifics are available, one would assume that Apple will be using the new PowerPC 970FX upcoming revisions. The 90nm chip should run cooler than its 130nm counterpart.

These processors actually run hotter because they are smaller in size. That could be one reason they are going to water-cooling. I'm sure you will see the PowerBooks water-cooled also.

 

[AidenShaw]

it's degrees, not BTUs

These processors actually run hotter because they are smaller in size. That could be one reason they are going to water-cooling. I'm sure you will see the PowerBooks water-cooled also.

That's a key point - it's not that there's more heat than other CPUs, the problem is that it's more concentrated.

Picture:

• a 25 watt Titanium Powerbook
• a 25 watt light bulb
• a 25 watt soldering pen (typical for electronics)

The Powerbook gets kind of warm if it runs for a long time, particularly if the airflow is somewhat restricted (on your lap, or on cloth).

The light bulb isn't super hot, but you won't be able to hold your fingers against it for very long.

The soldering tip - you don't want to touch at all.


All three of these produce the same amount of heat, but the concentration is different.

So, if Apple goes to a Cooligy-like liquid cooling system, it won't because of massive amounts of heat - it will be because it's the best way to deal with a concentrated heat source.

On the other hand, pure silver is only about $7 per ounce, so a silver heat sink connected to heatpipes might be far cheaper and more reliable! (http://www.kitco.com/market/)

 

[173080]

Those numbers are absolutely crap, or your source has VERY bad cooling! I am into PC Overclocking, so I know that ideally you want about 40degrees C for a stock machine, 50 for a little hot, and 60 for extreme hot. Any hotter you are really hurting your CPU.

Those numbers are absolutely crap too. 60C and you're hurting the CPU? Come on! My Athlon MP's are rated to work at up to 95C, so I seriously dont see how 60C is a problem.


Anyway, I'm still waiting for the updated PowerBooks. I really want a 15" PowerBook G4, but I seriously dont want a notebook that is already 7 months old. I dont *need* it right now, so I might as well just wait. The only thing I'd like improved in the 15" PowerBook is the Video Card. The 64MB 9600 is just too weak. I want 128MB for serious gaming during class 😀