PowerMacs, iMacs and eMacs

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
One great thing about macs is they hold their value quite well. I have a G3 400 that is 5 years old, but I can't find one for under $400.00 on the web. You don't see any PC's holding their value like that.

I'd love to see new PowerMac's. I was sure they would come out at Macworld, but I was obviously wrong and I know two people that work at Apple. Guess they were yanking my chain NBD

I would like to see the next PowerMacs include:

• Full DDR Support w/200Mhz fsb
• 8x AGP or AGP Pro Slot with ATI 9700 Pro
• ATA 133 & Serial ATA connectors
• Built in Bluetooth
• Wireless Mouse and Keyboard
• 5.1 Surround Sound
• Two 80 GB HD standard.
• Two Optical Drives Standard One SD
• Firewire 800 - Expected
• 17" monitor included
• For Less than 3K - unexpected.

I'm sure I can think of other things, but this is a good start.

If it had full DDR support, it would never be 200 MHz, but 266 or 333 depending on the type of DDR used. I see this type of confusement often among mac users. How could it be "full" if it's only at 200 MHz? What do you consider full DDR support?

AGP Pro is the name of the AGP slot that comes with an extension to suply more power to the videocard, and doesn't say a thing about speed. Of course, AGP 8x would be nice just for the statistics, but even a heavily overclocked 9700 PRO doesn't benefit from it (I read a test somewhere, all benchmarks where identical), since a graphics card depends on it's build in memory, and for transfering textures or video AGP 4x is plenty.

17" monitor included? Why pay for something that I already have? Drop the monitor AND the price.

Wireless keyboard, I don't care. But a wireless mouse would be nice if there is a nifty way of recharging it.

Just too bad that $3k will be ?4k, even though dollars and euros are almost the same value.

edit: I see the euro symbol is turned into a questionmark..

 

[artistry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: when?

Originally posted by ffakr


Must be a US thing. Sorry.

There's a deal inthe UK at the moment where students lease a Mac for three years at some low price (£7 per month? Maybe higher!) and at the end either give it back or pay £50 and it's theirs.

Sounds good. Only problem is, the university has to administer it - I hear that it's not being taken up by many.

 

[Centris 650]

Originally posted by AssassinOfGates


What I meant was in a few weeks or months from now, not from when I bought it. True it wasn't top of the line it was just entry so I could afford it and upgrade in the future, as for the price, I shall complain because I worked my arse off all summer at my s*** job paying minimum wage just to buy it, getting little sleep every night. Im only 16.

While I do see your points, what I was trying to convey in my post was it is very humbling for me to work so hard for one computer, then see even better ones come out so soon. I thought it's generation would last as long as the previous quicksilver generation.

Ahhh...welcome to the real world! Just kidding! The only mac I've ever owned that seemed to last forever was my Centris 650. It last 5 years before I had the need to upgrade. My PB150, iMac revA and ibook SE have all had short life spans. (2-3.5 years)
The one thing that makes my machines old so fast is either 1) the OS or 2) games. I can live without the 2nd but the first...? I like having an up to date OS.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

FW800

DLD's will probably not be FW800 anytime soon as, like others have pointed out, no single, IDE hard drive today can even come close to saturating FW400.

Does anyone know, however, what kind of bandwidth an uncompressed SD or HD a/v stream would take up though? I wonder if uncompresed, pro-sumer camcorders are on the horizon.

Also, if you put a FW400 device on the FW800 bus, will it slow the bus down to 400mbit or will it just eat just to portion it needs? If so, then FW800 would be great for hanging lots of extra's off of it: MiniDV camcorder/deck, a few FW400 hard drives, FW400 scanner, etc...

 

[artistry]

Originally posted by AssassinOfGates


I shall complain because I worked my arse off all summer at my s*** job paying minimum wage just to buy it, getting little sleep every night. Im only 16.

I sympathise - I teaach in a UK university. It looks like we're moving to a US system of high student fees. All my students work pretty much full time. As I see it, the economy will suffer as burnt-out, underachieving graduates enter the workforce.

But you do have a grerat computer and, at the risk of sounding patronising, it's more than I had when I was your age! (Sorry, that is patronising)

 

[Falleron]

Re: Re: G4 7457

Originally posted by Over Achiever

Well here's the Apple System Profiler for the 17" taken from MWSF...if you can understand it, cool.

That new powerbook must be the present G4 because it only has 254K cache + the new G4 will have 512k.

 

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by AssassinOfGates
New powermacs? its still hard for me to believe that after buying my dual 867 3 days after the release, and paying $1785 for it being a student, it already is going to be obsolete in a few weeks / months. If only they had the lifespan of a car....

You'd rather Apple never update? Also, be glad Apple doesn't update like every month as in the PC world. You PC is obsolete as you make your way to the check out counter.

 

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by cc bcc


If it had full DDR support, it would never be 200 MHz, but 266 or 333 depending on the type of DDR used. I see this type of confusement often among mac users. How could it be "full" if it's only at 200 MHz? What do you consider full DDR support?

AGP Pro is the name of the AGP slot that comes with an extension to suply more power to the videocard, and doesn't say a thing about speed. Of course, AGP 8x would be nice just for the statistics, but even a heavily overclocked 9700 PRO doesn't benefit from it (I read a test somewhere, all benchmarks where identical), since a graphics card depends on it's build in memory, and for transfering textures or video AGP 4x is plenty.

17" monitor included? Why pay for something that I already have? Drop the monitor AND the price.

Wireless keyboard, I don't care. But a wireless mouse would be nice if there is a nifty way of recharging it.

Just too bad that $3k will be ?4k, even though dollars and euros are almost the same value.

edit: I see the euro symbol is turned into a questionmark..

Thanks for your corrections regarding DDR. My point was that I'd like to see full implementation regardless of what the actual number. For the AGP pro, it's more for future releases. I like to make upgrades. The 17" screen included was a price option. If they can release a PowerBook with a 17" screen for 3400, then they should be able to include one in a PM. Laptops cost more than desktops, so I agree they should charge less. I'm sticking with the wireless keyboard and mouse.

 

[Dave K]

Originally posted by cc bcc


If it had full DDR support, it would never be 200 MHz, but 266 or 333 depending on the type of DDR used.

Actually, there is DDR-400 for a double pumped 200mhz system bus, but it's limited in it's performance benefits and haggled by compatiblity issues because the exact spec. wasn't final yet last I heard...

Agreeing on AGP 8.0. Nothing currently really taxes the 4.0 Bus, and most PC folk don't expect anything will until the Doom sequel ships next summer/fall/winter/"when it's done". At which point Apple may as well skip 8.0 altogether and just move straight to PCI-Express which would play much nicer with the 900 Mhz system bus of the 970 and offers twice the bandwidth of AGP8...

No one will come out and say it, but AGP as a spec is likely on it's last legs as PCI-Express makes it redundant and system manufactuers like to remove redundancies to save on costs...

 

[Le Big Mac]

Re: Re: When?!?

Originally posted by bbowdon



Meanwhile, I think if a new iMac line were close to release, it would have been part of the MacWorld announcements.

I think this is savvy marketing on Apple's part. If they release a lot of new products at MWSF, then the press has lots of news about it for a few days, but never focuses on the products. Within two weeks, everyone forgets about it.

Here, Apple introduces a couple of new products with some new features, gets the buzz going. People hear about it, and start thinking about Apple again. Then, in three weeks when they're getting serious, Apple comes out with some more new products. People say, sweet, I really wanted an iMac, and now I can get FW2, or bluetooth, or whatever, in an iMac, and I won't get the laptop. Meanwhile, the press coverage continues -- "Apple released further updates, etc." I

They're spreading out the news to keep the excitement fresh.

 

[wumpus]

More overclocking

Contrary to what others have said, the 1.25ghz G4s are overclocked, for all intents and purposes. The 7455 was not meant to go above 1ghz - as with any chip, some at the fab CAN run a bit faster if cooled properly. While these 7455s may be 'rated' at 1.25ghz and 'overclocking' means running a chip above its rated speed - as the Register said, this is a 'distinction without a difference. These are last year's chips [1ghz] running hotter and faster than before'...Apple is desperate, they can't use DDR properly or run above 1ghz (look a the Moto product sheets), so they have had to overclock them and engineer a hack to use DDR...There have been good reports of dualies at Apple running at 1.5ghz, but not enough chips can be clocked that high for Apple to sell them to the public..

...Remember, these chips are for Cisco first and for the Mac second - if the 7457 does have a 200mhz bus, it is only because the IBM 750FX can run on a 200mhz FSB and Moto wants to compete with it in embedded markets...

..Unless Moto can get full DDR support, lower cache latencies and a better FSB out FAST with the 7457, we have little to look forward to until the 970 - the first desktop PPC since the original 750...

 

[whiteboyphil]

better to wait for new G4's?

I've been saving up some ca$h to put together a system for digital music production. Would it be better to wait another month or so to see if Apple makes enhancements to the PowerMac's or should I just buy now? If FW800 is likely, it would be a shame if I missed out, since most mfg's will probably start cranking out portable drives with that standard this year. Being a mac newbie, please help me here...would it be difficult to upgrade from a current 1.25GHz system to the next anticipated version, assuming it would contain the features that most people are speculating about in this thread?

Still waiting for ProTools for OS X and eMagic will probably need to make some updates to their OS X version of Logic from what I've gleamed, so I guess this is more of a driving factor.

WBP

 

[locovaca]

Re: More overclocking

Originally posted by wumpus
Contrary to what others have said, the 1.25ghz G4s are overclocked, for all intents and purposes. The 7455 was not meant to go above 1ghz - as with any chip, some at the fab CAN run a bit faster if cooled properly. While these 7455s may be 'rated' at 1.25ghz and 'overclocking' means running a chip above its rated speed - as the Register said, this is a 'distinction without a difference.

Check It Out. Apple is not overclocking because THEY define whether or not it is overclocking.

 

[arn]

Re: More overclocking

Originally posted by wumpus
These are last year's chips [1ghz] running hotter and faster than before'...Apple is desperate, they can't use DDR properly or run above 1ghz (look a the Moto product sheets), so they have had to overclock them and engineer a hack to use DDR..

But they are rated by Motorola to run at 1.25ghz... not Apple.

arn

 

[cc bcc]

Re: better to wait for new G4's?

Originally posted by whiteboyphil
I've been saving up some ca$h to put together a system for digital music production. Would it be better to wait another month or so to see if Apple makes enhancements to the PowerMac's or should I just buy now? If FW800 is likely, it would be a shame if I missed out, since most mfg's will probably start cranking out portable drives with that standard this year. Being a mac newbie, please help me here...would it be difficult to upgrade from a current 1.25GHz system to the next anticipated version, assuming it would contain the features that most people are speculating about in this thread?

Still waiting for ProTools for OS X and eMagic will probably need to make some updates to their OS X version of Logic from what I've gleamed, so I guess this is more of a driving factor.

WBP

I would definately wait (actually, I am waiting too.. ) because the powermacs are due for an update and I'm pretty sure that they will be updated within a couple of weeks. Powermacs update about only twice a year, so I suggest waiting to get a much better machine for the same money.

 

[Dave K]

Re: Re: When?!?

Originally posted by bbowdon
What's the shortest amount of time after a MacWorld that Apple has announced a new product upgrade (of the magnitude that new iMacs would be)??

IIRC, Apple has updated the PowerMacs roughly 1 month after each MacWorld for the last year or so. Which is all any changes to the iMacs are likely to be. Processor upgrades and minor system tweaks.

Dropping the 15" models and shifting to 17" across the line doesn't really justify a major announcement as that's more of a natural evolution in the product than anything else...

 

[chubakka]

hey arn!

is there a future G4 thread that we can check out?

what's the next bus speed to be used? as far as you've heard.

and where's new order? he pegged the prices before they were announced.

 

[trebblekicked]

Re: better to wait for new G4's?

Originally posted by whiteboyphil

Still waiting for ProTools for OS X and eMagic will probably need to make some updates to their OS X version of Logic from what I've gleamed, so I guess this is more of a driving factor.

WBP

- i believe protools for osx was one of the first things steve demo'd at MWSF this year. i can't remember how long he said, but i'm pretty sure it's under a month. looks pretty good. i'd suggest waiting also, but i haven't heard word one on FW2 (FW800) periphs from digidesigns.

 

[Abstract]

Re: FW800

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
DLD's will probably not be FW800 anytime soon as, like others have pointed out, no single, IDE hard drive today can even come close to saturating FW400.

AGP Pro is the name of the AGP slot that comes with an extension to suply more power to the videocard, and doesn't say a thing about speed. Of course, AGP 8x would be nice just for the statistics, but even a heavily overclocked 9700 PRO doesn't benefit from it (I read a test somewhere, all benchmarks where identical), since a graphics card depends on it's build in memory, and for transfering textures or video AGP 4x is plenty.

Who cares? It looks better on paper. Apple needs to promote something related to hardware improvements, excluding a 100 Mhz speed bump, which any layman knows is crap, especially if you're a potential switcher living in the PC world.

Add AGP 8x, and add FW800. Who cares if it doesn't help much. You know better, but most people don't. Apple is dying because it doesn't look like its making much progress in the hardware department. I say make the upgrades for show. Most writers who write technology reviews for new products would probably not know the difference either, and say, "Wow, Apple just released a PowerMac with AGP 8x and FW2!!!" Apple needs to counter their image as a company who sells obsolete crap. If everybody is at USB 2.0, then you need to install FW800 and tell people that its 2x faster than USB 2.0, even if nothing is going to take advantage of it right now.

 

[MacKid]

Re: FW800

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
DLD's will probably not be FW800 anytime soon as, like others have pointed out, no single, IDE hard drive today can even come close to saturating FW400.

Does anyone know, however, what kind of bandwidth an uncompressed SD or HD a/v stream would take up though? I wonder if uncompresed, pro-sumer camcorders are on the horizon.

Also, if you put a FW400 device on the FW800 bus, will it slow the bus down to 400mbit or will it just eat just to portion it needs? If so, then FW800 would be great for hanging lots of extra's off of it: MiniDV camcorder/deck, a few FW400 hard drives, FW400 scanner, etc...

Unfortunately, if you tried to daisy chain it with a hub, the hub won't have a bandwidth large enough (at least for another year+) to harbor it all, so the peripherals will all be the same or lesser speed of FW 400 because the main hardware can't take advantage of it.

 

[bigpics]

Apple -- in order to "differentiate" its product line -- continues to practice what I call "PC-jr ism."

-- In other words, why not put the 1.2 GHZ chips in the iMac refresh?

They're nothing new by now and the PPC's have TWO of 'em and will be bumped up besides --

--or the ability to use dual unmirrored monitors

--or FW800 (which will need all the ports it can get to compete with USB 2.0 -- even if it's a better product). That is, where's the motivation for manufacturers to add it if only new PowerMac users have it.

Apple's intention is clear. If an iMac is too good, people will buy it instead of a PowerMac and steal revenue from the top line.

However, selling intentionally crippled hardware is part of why IBM is not only no longer the leader in selling "IBM compatibles" but doesn't even make its own anymore.

Sez I: Make each machine the best it can be and let the market place sort out the winners and losers instead of deciding which is which in advance and eventually your customers will be more enthusiatic and let you know which way you should be evolving your lines.

But I don't see that happening.

 

[orthodoc]

Originally posted by bigpics
Apple -- in order to "differentiate" its product line -- continues to practice what I call "PC-jr ism."

-- In other words, why not put the 1.2 GHZ chips in the iMac refresh?

They're nothing new by now and the PPC's have TWO of 'em and will be bumped up besides --

--or the ability to use dual unmirrored monitors

--or FW800 (which will need all the ports it can get to compete with USB 2.0 -- even if it's a better product). That is, where's the motivation for manufacturers to add it if only new PowerMac users have it.

Apple's intention is clear. If an iMac is too good, people will buy it instead of a PowerMac and steal revenue from the top line.

However, selling intentionally crippled hardware is part of why IBM is not only no longer the leader in selling "IBM compatibles" but doesn't even make its own anymore.

Sez I: Make each machine the best it can be and let the market place sort out the winners and losers instead of deciding which is which in advance and eventually your customers will be more enthusiatic and let you know which way you should be evolving your lines.

But I don't see that happening.

I couldn't have said it better myself. In my opinion, the iMac should have a single processor of the same speed as the fastest dual processor chip in the powermacs. This is differentiation enough. The pros will still buy powermacs for their ability to upgrade. But don't purposely hold us "casual" users back simply to make the pro machines look better.

My two cents.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Re: FW800

Originally posted by MacKid


Unfortunately, if you tried to daisy chain it with a hub, the hub won't have a bandwidth large enough (at least for another year+) to harbor it all, so the peripherals will all be the same or lesser speed of FW 400 because the main hardware can't take advantage of it.

Let's asume a FW800 hub or, even better no hub at all here. Daisy chain them all (let's just say the Scanner has 2 FW ports like the HD's would)

The question is, will we be sharing 800 Mb bandwith or 400?

I'm asuming it would be like ethernet, unless you have a switch (which the FW800 hub may act like) one 10 Mbit adapter on the network would cause all of the 1000/100/10 Mb adapters to have to run in their 10 Mb mode.

 

[MacKid]

FW800 backwards compatibility

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Let's asume a FW800 hub or, even better no hub at all here. Daisy chain them all (let's just say the Scanner has 2 FW ports like the HD's would)

The question is, will we be sharing 800 Mb bandwith or 400?

I'm asuming it would be like ethernet, unless you have a switch (which the FW800 hub may act like) one 10 Mbit adapter on the network would cause all of the 1000/100/10 Mb adapters to have to run in their 10 Mb mode.

Well, if you wanted to do thing with a scanner or HD, then, if you could find a wire that would split one FW800 to two FW400's, then you could probably get that to work. All I'm saying is if you take a whole bunch of FW400 peripherals, it would probably take advantage of the 800's bandwidth unless the main wire or hub you are using is meant for FW400.

 

[Shrek]

On upcoming iMacs I would like to see:

• 1GHz and 1.25GHz clock speeds respectively
• Support for DDR
• Up to 2GB of RAM
• 167 MHz Bus Speed
• Up to 120GB Hard Drive
• 19" Screen Option
• Expandable AGP Graphics Card Slot
• Expandable PCI Sound Card Slot
• Bluetooth Built-In
• Support for 802.11g Airport Card
• Gigabit Ethernet
• Firewire 800 & USB 2.0

That would sell a lot of iMacs! A lot more iMacs. This would actually make the iMac line a very profitable one once again (and attract a lot of PC users! ), but I don't think that it will disrupt sales of PowerMacs too much. PowerMacs will still have many features that iMacs don't have (such as dual processors, support for dual displays, and support for up to four 120GB hard drives).

Personally, I would like to see two 17" models with 1GHz and 1.25GHz processors and two 19" models with 1GHz and 1.25GHz processors respectively and all with Superdrives. And maybe one 15" model with a Superdrive.

Feature packed iMacs is the name of the game!

eMacs should have the same clock speeds, and DDR RAM, but lower bus speeds and not be as feature packed. This should help win back the education market from Dell:

• 1GHz and 1.25GHz clock speeds respectively
• Support for DDR
• 133 MHz Bus Speed
• Up to 1.5GB of RAM
• Up to 100GB Hard Drive
• Support for 802.11g Airport Card
• Firewire 800

That's my 2 cents.