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The guy doing this seems to have the trouble distinguishing between piracy and EULA ...

I understand where the actual piracy is going on. It's illegal to distribute a hacked copy of OS X. I don't think anyone is agreeing with this activity.

That's not where most people are pointing the finger. I've been reading an awful lot of installing "OS X on generic hardware = pirating OS X" ...which is just wrong. It's violation of EULA.

-Clive
 
I think it's QUITE OBVIOUS that a G5 motherbaord will be different than a Pentium motherboard, don't you? Since Apple hasn't sold a G5 computer for two years, I guess you can be safely disregarded.

Except for that comment about cases...

Mac Pro:
overview-hero.jpg


Open Computer:
P182SEmirror.jpg



Only a blind man would prefer the cheese grater, and he'd have to look twice.

Call me blind. That cheese greater, curved handles and solid constructrion give me every damn day of the year.
 
Call me blind. That cheese greater, curved handles and solid constructrion give me every damn day of the year.

Give you what? Fits? Disgust? Lotsa lotsa mozarella for your pizza?

Poor Apple. With that design, they COULDN'T chrome the thing, for then the cheese grater would be REALLY obvious.

PsyStar are geniuses.... Apple must be populated with Microsoft moles.
 
I think it's QUITE OBVIOUS that a G5 motherbaord will be different than a Pentium motherboard, don't you? Since Apple hasn't sold a G5 computer for two years, I guess you can be safely disregarded.

Except for that comment about cases...

Mac Pro:
overview-hero.jpg


Open Computer:
P182SEmirror.jpg



Only a blind man would prefer the cheese grater, and he'd have to look twice.

I'm with the other blind guy. I think you'd have to be insane to prefer that flimsy looking and overly shiny...thing. The Mac Pro case is beautiful, and sturdy. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I am saying that I've never seen a better one.
 
That would be disastrous. Apple's business model is to use superior software to sell hardware. I understand that people here don't like apple's prices, but paying those hardware prices is what pays for the R&D on apple's very good and very reasonably priced OS and software.

If OS X (and consequently, all apple's other apps) can be installed on any PC, Apple will probably either drastically increase the price of its stand-alone software (because it will not longer be as well supported by hardware sales) or will stop using selling its OS retail. Neither is what we want to see.

IMO it's in our interest to see Psystar fail (and FWIW, I think they will).

To anybody still squabbling over this concept... this post is the answer to the entire thread.
 
I'm with the other blind guy. I think you'd have to be insane to prefer that flimsy looking and overly shiny...thing. The Mac Pro case is beautiful, and sturdy. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I am saying that I've never seen a better one....

...to grate cheese with.
 
remember that if pystar wins, osx will probably have to go up to about 600$ or something ridiculous. Its underpriced at the moment because you have to buy ridiculously expensive apple hardware to use the thing. So apple will just jack up the price of their OS to make up for their lost profits, we will probably end up in just about the same boat as before.

Dude seriously, if you are going to lie, be atleast a little less obvious about it. Apple hardware is not overpriced. Period. It may be expensive relative to a crappy Dell low end PC, but its also not equivalent to that crappy PC either. When you compare Apple hardware to similarly specced PC hardware the price is about the same often even CHEAPER for the Mac. For example:

GATEWAY ONE
$1499
19" 1440 x 900 screen
1.5ghz Core 2 Duo
2 GB RAM
400 GB HD
a/b/g/n wireless
2600xt 256 MB graphics card
Vista Home Premium

iMac
$1517
20" 1680x1050
2.0ghz Core2Duo
2 GB RAM
320 GB HD
a/b/g/n wireless
2600xt 128 MB graphics card
Mac OS X


So for about the same price (a $20 bill won't kill you) the Mac gives you a better screen and faster processor, the Gateway gives you a little more HD space and more video memory. The Mac gves you bluetooth, the gateway doesn't. The gateway gives you a built in card reader, the mac doesn't. The Mac gives you the full OS, the Gateway doesn't.

You can get an iMac with a better graphics card. You can't get a Gateway One with a better processor.

But yeah, that darn iMac is so overpriced. I could do this again for the laptops and the MacPro's and the results would be the same. Mac's as being somehow inflated in price is a myth.
 
That would be disastrous. Apple's business model is to use superior software to sell hardware. I understand that people here don't like apple's prices, but paying those hardware prices is what pays for the R&D on apple's very good and very reasonably priced OS and software.

If OS X (and consequently, all apple's other apps) can be installed on any PC, Apple will probably either drastically increase the price of its stand-alone software (because it will not longer be as well supported by hardware sales) or will stop using selling its OS retail. Neither is what we want to see.

IMO it's in our interest to see Psystar fail (and FWIW, I think they will).
To anybody still squabbling over this concept... this post is the answer to the entire thread.
I completely agree. If anyone doubts that Apple uses software to sell hardware look it up yourself. Even Steve Jobs has said they are first and foremost a hardware company.
 
Is this a similar scenario to that of people being locked into Apple's designated carrier? Plenty of people seem happy enough to unlock their phones against Apple's will.

Being a relatively new switcher, I'm impressed with the Apple experience, though admitting it does come with a financial premium.

I'm not sure whether, as a first timer, I like [be confident] to switch to a hybrid alternative. Especially by a new start up like Pystar.

If they can survive on a customer base of current Mac users picking up cheaper more versatile kit for a reasonable length of time, then they could appear attractive to switchers in the medium to long term.

If they survive for just a little time, will there be a gold rush of others jumping in too, with Dell and HP having ago?

It's different, with the iPhone analogy, it would be like if you buy a Mac you are forced to use only "X" Internet Service Provider, so people then unlock it to be able to use it with any ISP.

However IMO it will never be a Mac if it's not made by :apple:.

Many will like to do this: buy parts, assemble a computer, then call it what you want.
________
e cigarette
 
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To anybody still squabbling over this concept... this post is the answer to the entire thread.

So what exactly is the difference between paying $2,000 to Apple for an iMac with OS X whether that's split up as $1,800 for the computer and $200 for the software or $1,500 for the computer or $500 for the software?

Or are you saying that Apple wouldn't lower the prices on the hardware if they raised software prices, even though countless people in this thread have used the argument that part of the hardware's cost subsidizes "cheap" software?
 
Why is it so unreasonable that Apple wishes to protect their business model.

Leopard isn't $129 because that's what Leopard costs. Leopard costs $129 because it runs on hardware purchased from Apple, and the price takes into effect the hardware profits as well. This is quite well understood, I thought.

Apple is in the business of selling a product, which is "a computer with an operating system", and if someone comes along and undercuts with crappy hardware, it hurts Apple's model, and we'll wind up paying more for upgrades.

If you guys want "cheap" at the same time as "quality", then you haven't been in business for yourself yet. There's a saying: Cheap, Quality, Price. You only get to pick two.

And, in the end, if you don't want it, don't buy it. If Honda made cars and built roads, it's perfectly reasonable for them to not let other people on their roads. Ridiculous analogy.

Since when does any company implicitly have the LEGAL right to "protect their business model" ? Do you realize how draconian and monopolistic that sounds?

My guess is you will not even see Apple attempt to fight this in court based on the EULA at all because in all likelihood the EULA will lose. Of course, Apple has enough money to drag this case out on many fronts until this company is broke, but who in their right mind is cheering for that? Geez, that's like cheering for Microsoft IMHO!

Where Apple has a case is with copyright infringement of the Apple or Mac name or DMCA due to the EFI emulator. This is where Apple legal will pounce. But I'm not even sure I'd cheer for Apple in this regard either. What if IBM had attempted to close the PC market from clones based on its copyrights? Of course IBM, unlike Apple, was too stupid to copyright a lot of things they should have back then, but what if they had? Boy would the world be different.

Ultimately, if this machine is a piece of junk, few will sell.
Apple only has something to worry about if the machines are any good.
Can you say PowerComputing?

If Apple were smart from a marketing and PR perspective, they'd get off their asses and just release a similar product that hits this niche market. It's not like people haven't been clamoring for a mid-range, somewhat expandable tower for years! Geesh! That is how Apple got hurt by the previous Mac clone market, not hitting key markets and price points. Then no one will even remember who this Psystar is anymore and no legal challenge will even be necessary. Why would Apple want to even risk losing in court on EULA or anything really. If they did lose, the Mac clone market would once again be wide open and even Dell could jump in if they wanted.

Finally, here's a more interesting scenario...
What if Apple sues them on multiple fronts in such a way that Psystar has no way of fighting from a money standpoint. Then Apple quietly settles the lawsuit by BUYING Psystar for a measly million and then releases a nicer version of the product designed by Apple! Case closed. :)
 
Forget the EULA, what about hacking the OS?

In a way, I'd like to see OS X available to everyone, so the general public can show their support for a great product - however, there are a lot of plusses to Apple keeping their OS proprietary.

I was surprised by the move by Psystar, not only to have such a confusing name (sister or sigh-star or an anagram of rats pys), but also because of the fact that the EULA is the least of their worries. They have to patch the operating system to get it to install, which means that they are tampering with the software provided and selling it as such.

So for their analogies - it would be like selling a Honda with a Ford body, or like selling Microsoft Windows with a patch to stop product activation - and that would be naughty, wouldn't it?
 
To anybody still squabbling over this concept... this post is the answer to the entire thread.

A more expensive OS that installs on generic hardware is the best solution... and I am confident that users will embrace it. Meanwhile, there will remain a challenge for Apple to create superior products... which is good.

Someone said it before, and I will echo it: If I could purchase OS X for >$129 and install it on hardware of my choice, I would. Apple won't meet my hardware needs and so any purchase from me is going to be few and far-between. Quite honestly, it'd probably work out better for Apple to just sell me OS X every two years for $300 than rely on me as a source of hardware income. I've gone for 6 years on an iMac, and I'm *thinking* of getting a MacMini this year...

-Clive
 
Give you what? Fits? Disgust? Lotsa lotsa mozarella for your pizza?

Poor Apple. With that design, they COULDN'T chrome the thing, for then the cheese grater would be REALLY obvious.

PsyStar are geniuses.... Apple must be populated with Microsoft moles.

I can't stand chrome. Chrome electroplating is cheap and eventually the bonds break down leaving a flaked surface.
 
To anybody still squabbling over this concept... this post is the answer to the entire thread.

Originally Posted by QCassidy352
That would be disastrous. Apple's business model is to use superior software to sell hardware. I understand that people here don't like apple's prices, but paying those hardware prices is what pays for the R&D on apple's very good and very reasonably priced OS and software.

If OS X (and consequently, all apple's other apps) can be installed on any PC, Apple will probably either drastically increase the price of its stand-alone software (because it will not longer be as well supported by hardware sales) or will stop using selling its OS retail. Neither is what we want to see.

IMO it's in our interest to see Psystar fail (and FWIW, I think they will).

Apple's business model is to try and stay about five years ahead of the competition. Unfortunately, this keeps Steve Jobs in the position of living in Future World where iPhones on chips implanted directly into the brain have the total capabilities of MacPros today and desktop computers no longer exist. And completely abandoning users who need cutting edge large desktop computers, TODAY.

This strategy will ultimately prove to be self-defeating. If Mr. Steve Jobs is not interested in serving the needs of power users TODAY, other companies will only be so happy to step in and do so, and at a highly reduced price.

Apple can no longer rest on its laurels, or rely on their PAST reputation of being cutting edge to cut the higher premium people pay for their mere logo on a piece of barely competitive hardware, TODAY.

Mr. Steve Jobs can continue to live in the future if he so desires, but he'd better find someone fast who is concentrating SOLELY on meeting the needs of current power app cutting edge customers, or he will end up with a company selling tiny cheap gadgets, or as I like to call it, iCrap.

Maybe that's the goal. It sure looks like it.

IMO it's in MY (and other power users') best interest to see that PsyStar succeeds and gives Apple the much needed kick in the pants it needs from competition in the marketplace; my posts, warnings, and complaints have fallen on some VERY deaf ears; sound just doesn't travel that well through time.
 
A more expensive OS that installs on generic hardware is the best solution...

No it's not! Just look at the spot Microsoft is in with Windows. So many drivers, compatibility issues and bloat. That's one of the reasons I switched to the Mac.

IMO it's in MY (and other power users') best interest to see that PsyStar succeeds and gives Apple the much needed kick in the pants it needs from competition in the marketplace; my posts, warnings, and complaints have fallen on some VERY deaf ears; sound just doesn't travel that well through time.
I'm not deaf, I'm just not stupid.
 
If this is the level of intelligence they have at their company they will be drinking water out of a toilet in a few months. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

A better analogy would be "...after you buy their car, you could only use Honda replacement parts." Well Honda might say that, and does say that from time to time. At at times it is within their right.

Don't get me wrong, I would like a powerful cheap mac from these guys. But I think their logic is messed up, and the only way around Apple is to sell a computer sans OS, then let the end user violate the agreement by installing the OS his/herself. They could even bundle the OS in the sale, but the user would need to install it.

Apple would be nuts to go after all the end users. And the company could say, "hey we are just selling generic PCs with no OS."
This is the key point. Most of the other analysis here is focussing on the rights of an individual under the EULA to do X, Y, or Z. The point is these guys are a company and pre-installing OS-X in direct violation of the EULA as well as encouraging others to violate the EULA.

I would argue that even by bundling OS-X with their product, in combination with the information on their site that the computer will run OS-X is actually a "conspiracy to violate" (the EULA), and thus also disallowed.

Ultimately, these guys may be able to stay in business providing clone boxes for x86 enthusiasts, but (ironically), only if they remove all the information from their site saying that their boxes can be used for such purposes. Perhaps that is their goal in the first place, to get enough name recognition that they can continue in business even after Apple legal makes them remove all the damning info that violates and encourages others to violate, the EULA.
 
I think the real issue here is not that I would want to have a computer other than a Mac to run OSX, its just that I resent the over priced under specced hardware that Apple use. And given the sales of the iPhone in Europe, it seems I'm not alone.

Since the move to Intel the components now appear to be pretty much standard, albeit in a nice looking package, and the pace of updates appears to be very slow.

Watching the Apple apologists justify the existence of combi drives is an amusing sport but it gets wearing after a while. Apple routinely take the piss with their pricing, especially given that the vast bulk of their systems are "closed" and hence you cant upgrade.

Yes I can add extra USB ports via a hub, a bigger external hard drive, but given the price I've paid for a computer, should I have to? I think its a sick joke that the iMac has less USBs than a Mini, and when they do next upspec the mini anyone want to guess how much they will charge for memory knowing how difficult it it for the casual user to fit it?

If nothing else, I'd like Apple to be suitably embarrassed over this - but Jobs of course doesnt do embarassment!

Let's break your comments down a bit.
"I resent the over priced under specced hardware that Apple use."
This statement isn't very clear. However, the specs on the components within an Apple computer are significantly tighter than those in any other 'budget' PC. They are also specifically chosen to work with the current version of the OS the machine is expected to run and as such are likely to have higher specs as a result. The proof of this is that Apple requires the version of OS X installed to be "no lower than the version onboard when it comes from the factory."

"Since the move to Intel the components now appear to be pretty much standard, albeit in a nice looking package, and the pace of updates appears to be very slow."
The first part of this is answered above; however, it appears you mistake upgrades for updates. Unlike Windows updates (SP1, SP2 etc...) Apple updates OS X quite frequently. The version of Leopard I am currently running is 10.5.2, which means that there have been two updates to Leopard since the end of October, '07 vs one update to Vista (SP1) since October, '06. Carried further, it was about 18 months between the upgrades of Tiger (10.4) to Leopard (10.5) vs 7 years from Windows XP to Windows Vista.

"Yes I can add extra USB ports via a hub, a bigger external hard drive, but given the price I've paid for a computer, should I have to? I think its a sick joke that the iMac has less USBs than a Mini, and when they do next upspec the mini anyone want to guess how much they will charge for memory knowing how difficult it it for the casual user to fit it?"
Actually, such hardware upgrades as you describe aren't that difficult for the knowledgeable user, not really any more difficult than a Windows box. While I haven't done so in my current iMac, I swapped out hard drives in my previous one (after warranty) with no difficulty at all and they even make a convenient panel for me to install additional RAM. While my Mini didn't have a panel, it wasn't that hard to open it up and install more RAM and I could have upgraded the hard drive then if I'd so chosen. As for adding hard drive space to my current 24" iMac extreme, I chose to add drive, USB ports and Firewire ports all in one little package that looks a lot like a Mac Mini and conveniently fits on the iMac's base to look like it's part of the machine itself. I also have an external monitor attached giving me almost twice the desktop area.

However, I agree that something like a compact Mac Pro that allows internal upgrades by the user would be appreciated by a lot of current Mac users. Myself included.
 
This is the key point. Most of the other analysis here is focussing on the rights of an individual under the EULA to do X, Y, or Z. The point is these guys are a company and pre-installing OS-X in direct violation of the EULA as well as encouraging others to violate the EULA.

I would argue that even by bundling OS-X with their product, in combination with the information on their site that the computer will run OS-X is actually a "conspiracy to violate" (the EULA), and thus also disallowed.

Ultimately, these guys may be able to stay in business providing clone boxes for x86 enthusiasts, but (ironically), only if they remove all the information from their site saying that their boxes can be used for such purposes. Perhaps that is their goal in the first place, to get enough name recognition that they can continue in business even after Apple legal makes them remove all the damning info that violates and encourages others to violate, the EULA.
It's too bad this point was made very early in the thread ... of course, no one is reading it.

"Since the move to Intel the components now appear to be pretty much standard, albeit in a nice looking package, and the pace of updates appears to be very slow."
The first part of this is answered above; however, it appears you mistake upgrades for updates. Unlike Windows updates (SP1, SP2 etc...) Apple updates OS X quite frequently. The version of Leopard I am currently running is 10.5.2, which means that there have been two updates to Leopard since the end of October, '07 vs one update to Vista (SP1) since October, '06. Carried further, it was about 18 months between the upgrades of Tiger (10.4) to Leopard (10.5) vs 7 years from Windows XP to Windows Vista.
I think he meant hardware updates.
 
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