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I believe all of what crackbookpro is saying, and I think he is right. But I think I see what Tig is trying to say. So let me take a crack at this.

If you are in the ocean, you are in wide open space. So regardless of whether or not you have 3G, you are going to get a highly accurate reading of where you are.

But doesn't the 3G really come into play in big cities, with tall buildings and lots of trees? These things block the satellite signal, so in this case, 3G would actually make your location more precise.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is all correct. The degree to which 3G makes your location more accurate depends on where you are. In an area where you can communicate with the satellite without anything blocking the signal, you are going to get a highly accurate location even without the "assisting" 3G. However in an area where you can't send a strong signal to the satellite (i.e. big cities), the 3G can help to make your location more accurate.

Please correct me if I'm wrong crackbook

You are right on OP!

Only thing is, I was offshore fishing in Clearwater, Florida near the time of the Phillies 09 spring season opener. We went for a Grouper excursion 2 miles offshore (in 3G service), then ran out 40miles to a wreck/reef to catch Amberjack. When we got out 40 miles, the accuracy of the GPS on the iPhone was drastic. Some of my buddies and I have experienced the same thing camping in 08.

...so let's say I was in an emergency while camping with friends. Would I trust my GPS more with 3G around or no 3G around :confused:

CrackBookPro:cool:
 
even though the iphone 3gS with contract is $179, according to this website

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/06/15/rogers-fido-no-contract-iphone-3g-s-pricing-revealed-eh/

the iphone 3G S 16 GB, originally cost with no contract!!! at all $699.99!!!

First of all thats Canadian prices in canadian dollars, and I think you are getting things messed up a little. A Phone with no contract, means Apple doesnt get money from it every month (ie what they do from AT&T and others) for 2 years. That pays for free software updates (which we pay $9.95 for on the Touch), it pays for R&D. Unlocked phones are always much more expensive. The 3G Iphone had a similar price last year. That didnt mean that the Ipod touch's didnt sell at $229, $299 and $399.

so imagine the good things about a iphone 3GS
-3G, GPS, 3.0 MP Camera, and Video, phone, SMS, etc.. = $699.99 at MSRP

so imagine an ipod touch 3G with
-GPS, 3.0 MP camera and video, etc...= (i would guess around $400)

but nobody will buy a basic 16GB, ipod touch 3G for no more than $400

Prices go down on Ipods (including the touch) and features increase every year. Look at the Touch prices over the last two years.

1G (Sept 2007)
8 GB -$299
16 GB - $399

1G (Feb 2008)
32 GB - $499

2G (July 2008)
8 GB - $229
16 GB - $299
32 GB - $399

Two years ago the 16 GB Ipod was $399 (ie your $400), this year its $299, I believe my guess is that it was going to go to $249 (ie down $50) with the new features in September when the 3G comes out. When the 16 GB Ipod touch ($299) got torn down last year it cost more then the 3GS 16 GB cost now ($179), and of course a touch with those new features is quite a bit cheaper. The features you are worried about (Camera and GPS) are $12.20 in parts, I just dont see why you think adding $12.20 in parts to the current Ipod (with all the price drops in parts over the last year) that they are going to have to sell the system for $100 more then they did last year.

apple wants to make the ipod appealing, but they need profits too.!!! :)

You need to read the quarterly reports if you dont think Apple is making huge profits on the Ipod, Iphone and all of Itunes (Songs/apps/etc). Financially Apple is in great condition, and I expect we are going to see great numbers next week for the 3rd quarter.
-Tig
 
Tigger, let's put this to rest for the better of this forum - Do you think GPS is coming in the new iPod Touch?

I don't, I just think it will just be google maps, and my reasons our due to the iPhone 3G & 3Gs still truly needing a cell tower (3G) to get an accurate position, and also because the recovery time and battery life would be awful without the 3G service helping the A-GPS.

I'm sure you disagree, so have at it, and elaborate on why you disagree in a clear fashion...and let's get back to the topic. ;)

CrackBookPro:cool:
 
Tigger, let's put this to rest for the better of this forum - Do you think GPS is coming in the new iPod Touch?

I don't, I just think it will just be google maps, and my reasons our due to the iPhone 3G & 3Gs still truly needing a cell tower (3G) to get an accurate position, and also because the recovery time and battery life would be awful without the 3G service helping the A-GPS.

I'm sure you disagree, so have at it, and elaborate on why you disagree in a clear fashion...and let's get back to the topic. ;)

CrackBookPro:cool:

I don't think the iPod will get GPS for the reasons you listed. I do however think that there is a good chance the Touch will be compatible with this new TomTom device they announced for the iPhone. If I'm not mistaken, this device has its own GPS chip, and uses the iPhone simply as a large screen to display the information on.

And I'm glad I was in the right ballpark with my previous post lol, I seem to have a good grasp on this.
 
You are right on OP!

Only thing is, I was offshore fishing in Clearwater, Florida near the time of the Phillies 09 spring season opener. We went for a Grouper excursion 2 miles offshore (in 3G service), then ran out 40miles to a wreck/reef to catch Amberjack. When we got out 40 miles, the accuracy of the GPS on the iPhone was drastic. Some of my buddies and I have experienced the same thing camping in 08.

...so let's say I was in an emergency while camping with friends. Would I trust my GPS more with 3G around or no 3G around :confused:

Of course you arent pointing out that if you were really getting an inaccurate number on the GPS only mode, its because you werent getting 4 satellites, or waiting long enough for the device to settle. You also seem to be completely glossing over threads on this very website where the 3G's AGPS is putting people in the wrong buildings and even miles away from there actual location using the cell towers only. Right now Lionboys 3G thinks we are on the East side of the Tennessee River, thats a good 1.5 miles off, yet if I take the 3G chip out, walk outside and wait for it to find 4 satellites, amazingly it and either of my very expensive GPS systems here at work are within feet of each other. So AGPS gets me 1.5 miles off, 4 satellites gets within 10 feet, thats a real world test, done today. Look at the thread here for another such story.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/738720/

AGPS is faster to find a position, it can approximate where you are when you dont have satellites (inside, tree cover, etc), its not more accurate, its not intended to be.
-Tig
 
Tigger, let's put this to rest for the better of this forum - Do you think GPS is coming in the new iPod Touch?

I think it would stupid to remove a $2.25 part from the Iphone 3GS BOM when they make the Ipod Touch BOM because there is alot of things that can be done with the chip just in GPS mode, and also you keep glossing over that Apple's AGPS implementation (as several links point out including the thread I posted about above), actually prioritize with wi-fi vs Cell towers. And the Ipod touch has wi-fi. The gentlemen whose phone constantly thought he was at his university housing over the summer, had 3G, had signals from the cell phone towers, it thought he was on the other side of the city because he brought his router home for the summer.
-Tig
 
I am going to first bring up where the saga began - I made a post(reply#106) to old-wiz(reply#105), telling him that the GPS on a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is different then the GPS used in the iPhone. He was unclear about how A-GPS works on the iPhone - Do we agree on that Tiggie? - The GPS on a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is not the same GPS on an iPhone :confused: You then commented by a 'quoted post' telling me I was wrong, and that 3G does not give way to accuracy positioning on the iPhone :rolleyes: ....Tig, this is where I started second guessing you :eek: You either understand that, or you just don't bud :confused:

I said you dont need 3G to get GPS coordinates with the IPhone, you disagreed I gave you an example with taking out the phone chip, you didnt try it, but you still disagreed. (see Message 110). Now you tell us a story about going fishing and being really accurate 2 miles out (with 3G) and then going out 40 miles and the GPS wasnt very accurate (no 3G). Now which is it, does it have to have 3G to work (ie what you first said) or is it not very accurate without 3G (what you are now saying) or should we go with the truth, that like other GPS devices it takes a long time for TTFF with a Iphone, after that it works pretty good. I'm going with #3, because I can prove that here in my parking lot to anyone that wants to see it.

...you can experience it first hand by going to the boonies or go offshore fishing or a trip to the desert and/or wilderness. Find a place where you aren't even close to a 3G cell tower, and see what you find. Then, see the accuracy when you get in range of 3G.

Of course the articles you keep listing gizmodo, etc, keep pointing out that its faster, less battery power, not more accurate, in fact the gizmodo article says its an approximation, as anyone that read the thread by the gentlemen in Scotland understands it can actually be not a very good one. Where I use my GPS systems I dont have 3G service, I dont worry about how quickly it will work or how much battery it uses. You dont have to get away from a 3G tower to test this, just take the chip out of your phone as I told you back in message 110. Now it can't talk to the towers, amazingly however, you can get GPS signals from the satellites, and a good one on a clear day if you are willing to be patient.
-Tig
 
I don't think the iPod will get GPS for the reasons you listed. I do however think that there is a good chance the Touch will be compatible with this new TomTom device they announced for the iPhone. If I'm not mistaken, this device has its own GPS chip, and uses the iPhone simply as a large screen to display the information on.

And I'm glad I was in the right ballpark with my previous post lol, I seem to have a good grasp on this.

I'm speculating... it will have its own GPS chip, and use the screen off the iPhone/Touch for display.

I think the TomTom GPS Adapter is something that the Apple iPhone & Touch owners will cherish... I am definitely purchasing one if it is around $50 to $80. :D Anything over $100 will make me hesitate...

cheers,
CrackBookPro:cool:
 
I'm speculating... it will have its own GPS chip, and use the screen off the iPhone/Touch for display.

I think the TomTom GPS Adapter is something that the Apple iPhone & Touch owners will cherish... I am definitely purchasing one if it is around $50 to $80. :D Anything over $100 will make me hesitate...

cheers,
CrackBookPro:cool:

I will be purchasing the tomtom gps adapter as well as long as it does not exceed 100 USD. Anyone have any idea when they will announce a price and sale date for this?
 
I will be purchasing the tomtom gps adapter as well as long as it does not exceed 100 USD. Anyone have any idea when they will announce a price and sale date for this?


At $100 I'm not sure how interested I'd be, I got my wifes tom tom for $70 for Egghead with free shipping and Garmin's can be had for sub-$100 prices as well.
-Tig
 
Photos image quality?

Did they fix that problem in 3.0?

I have the first generation iPod Touch. Reading from polls and certain online sites people still aren't able to upload high/or lets say decent quality of photos through iTunes.
I don't have constant Wi-Fi connection, so mailing all the photos is still not a great option for me :(

If this problem still occurs, I'll add this to my wishlist of improvements of the 3rd generation!

Will buy the new iPod Touch in Hong Kong (november :(), in the hope its a bit cheaper
 
due to the iPhone 3G & 3Gs still truly needing a cell tower (3G) to get an accurate position

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You actually think a 3G cell tower is going to give you a more accurate position than a GPS receiver? GPS technology, even on a cheap unit, is far more accurate than anything 3G is capable of. The only thing the cell tower (or a WiFi connection) can provide to better a GPS system is online access to maps, to display the position determined by the receiver. If I didn't know from your other posts that you know a little about GPS tech, I would deduce from this quote alone that you have no clue what you are talking about and are just blowing smoke out your ears.

Edit: I take that back, upon rereading your earlier posts it is evident that you have absolutely no clue what you are effing talking about. Get off the crack :p
 
I think i'll just get the 2nd gen for my Bday in like 2 weeks. Because, i have no need for a camera as bad as the iPhone's. as far as photos are concerned, if i want to take photos, I'll take w/ my camera. It doesn't bother me that the speakers suck, that's why we use headphones, The Oleophobic coating apparently scratches easier according to some 3GS owners so i'm just gonna stick an anti-glare film on there that is more scratch resistant. I don't really care about GPS, i have only used the google maps function on my touch a few times. For those who want GPS, they can buy the Tomtom app or whatever from the app store. and i don't need 64Gb of storage. 16 gb is enough.
 
I don't think the Touch will get GPS, unless it gets a camera. Geo-tagging photos you take is a perfect excuse, and the fact that all apps wanting location info can get it will be icing on the cake.

I doubt they'll change the screen. We'd have heard something from a supplier if they were buying up millions of a different panel (OLED for example).

I love the fact that by making a new version (to keep sales up) every year Apple HAS to add something new this september. They could go long or short though. They tend to underwhelm me, no doubt saving something for "next year".
 
I don't think the Touch will get GPS, unless it gets a camera. Geo-tagging photos you take is a perfect excuse, and the fact that all apps wanting location info can get it will be icing on the cake.

But we are pretty sure its getting a camera. The new cases show it having a camera, the Touch manufacturers have leaked they are buying lots of camera chips for apple, given the big addition for the 3.1 software is non destructive editing, if they want the touch people to buy it, they probably are going to need a video camera on board for 3.1 to be a must get for new touch owners. A look at macrumors page 1 for the last couple weeks, one of the items that keeps coming up is new Touch with camera, thats why I think they will throw the GPS chip in, its cheap, the R&D is done, geotagging is the thing now as you have pointed out.
-Tig
 
Plastic Backing: No
We all hate the metal backing of the iPod, but I don't expect that to change. It has been the backing of all of Apple's highest end iPods, and there seems to be no reason to change it. I think Apple likes the fact that it scratches so easily, it makes people want to buy new ones every year. Although there's no doubt a plastic backing would be welcome by many, I don't think it will happen.

64 GB: Yes
Seems logical. I don't think that Apple likes having the same maximum capacity on both the iPhone and the iPod Touch. The iPod is meant to be a media device more so than the iPhone, so it's only logical that the highest end model have more capacity. I would expect 16, 32, and 64 gig models replacing the current lineup and the same price points.

Fingerprint-resistant oleophobic coating: Yes
Apple quietly put this on the iPhone 3GS, meaning it's not a huge deal. Apple usually likes to play up even minor additions (i.e. MMS and Video Recording). So the fact they didn't play this up tells me its rather simple and I expect it to reach the iPod, also quietly.

Camera: Yes
Call me crazy, but I think this is going to happen. One reason was an Apple job listing looking for people to work on cameras for the iPod. The second reason is logical. Apple's 2G Touch was a very incremental update. It changed its appearance slightly, added a volume rocker, a speaker, and several other small changes. This was a very small upgrade, and Apple is not usually known to do 2 minor upgrades on iPods back-to-back. I think many people resisted the temptation to upgrade from 1G to 2G, and Apple needs to do something big to the iPod to get people to upgrade. So even though it's a toss up, I'm predicting it will have the same camera as the iPhone with video recording. It's the slam dunk new feature that Apple could use to drive sales of the device.

GPS:???
Would love to have it, but I just have a gut feeling you won't see it on this iPod. Can't explain it, just don't think it will happen.

Microphone: Yes
The inclusion of the Voice Memos application on the iPod Touch 3.0 software sealed the deal on this for me. It makes no sense to have a non removable app like that on the Touch if very few of its owners can use it. Out of the box, every iPod user should be able to use every Apple application, including Voice Memos. Although, I'm not necessarily saying the microphone will be on the device. In fact I think it's more likely the microphone will be on the headphones, similar to the iPhone's headphones. Just expect there to be a microphone somewhere inside the Touch's packaging.

3G: No
I don't know why anyone thinks this is possible. The iPod is not a cell phone.

Thinner: Yes
But only slightly. Ever so slightly. Likely unnoticeable.

Better battery life, faster performance: Yes
This is a given, every Apple product is always more battery efficient and faster than the previous model. It will be interesting though to see just how much better they get. The battery will likely only get incrementally better, but the faster performance is a tough one. It will definitely be faster, but whether it is incremental like the 2G Touch, or considerably faster like the iPhone 3GS, remains to be seen. I'm leaning more towards 3GS.

Compass: ??
I think the average person is only going to use the compass on the 3GS to aid in using the GPS. Since the iPod won't have GPS (in my opinion), the compass is almost useless.

Voice Control: ??
This makes sense. Since I believe a microphone will be included with every device, it's logical to include this feature.

Front-facing camera: No
This will never happen on any iPod. Apple is all about clean design. Nothing looks worse than a camera protruding out on the front of the device. It's ugly and I don't think Apple believes enough people would use the feature to warrant its inclusion.

Better speaker: Yes
The speaker on the 2G Touch is lackluster. Better speakers exist for the iPhone. Expect an upgrade, even though it likely won't be heavily advertised.

AM/FM Tuner: ?
People have wanted this forever, and it will never happen. Never has, never will. Even more so now that there are apps that let you listen to radio over the internet.

Aluminum unibody design: ?
While I could potentially see this in the future, you won't see it on the 3G Touch. I expect the Touch's physical design to remain very similar to the 2G model. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if it's identical (aside from the camera on the back).
 
I hate to quote my own-self, but...because another newbie(blackdove) is taking me out of context, I will share my previous thoughts. Newbie, you need to realize the other newbie(Tigger) actually gave some insight and does pose some knowledge on this thread. But on the otherhand, BlackDove you are a newbie who failed in your post to me, just like you failed in your first thread made on here only a couple weeks ago... (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/742235/) Put away the twinkie, come up for air, and stop smashing the keyboard with your paws :eek:

Read this - http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/14/shouldve-bought-a-garmin-testing-the-iphone-3gs-gps-capabilit/

...and then read where I quoted myself below.

If you asked Apple IT about the actual process the A-GPS really goes through - the truth is that the iPhone does not always get a great satellite connection. Apple wishes, but they can't because they do not have a strong enough chip module yet (Apple will tell you & market otherwise). As the Apple specialist could have relayed to you if you asked him clarification - it more or less, needs & uses 3G to gain it's accuracy, because the iPhone is not spec'd properly to always get a clear signal.

here is an Engadget article & New York Times article in 08 about the "poor" GPS chip:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/11/iphone-3g-review/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/technology/personaltech/09pogue.html?_r=1

The GPS module in the iPhone 3G & 3Gs are the same, and are far from being solely a stand alone GPS. The current GPS unit still needs to use A-GPS for accuracy & positioning.

So, here is the conclusion(and try not to take it out of context)... The 3G access is what makes this current GPS 'sing' in speed, position, & accuracy, because of the poor GPS chip in the current model.

CrackBookPro:cool:
 
I am predicting the highest-end 3rd Gen Model to have:

A camera!

A mic will be added as I believe the video camera is coming along with it as well, and there is also great features coming with a built-in mic. I am 100% sure of a camera, my reasons are mostly do to business decisions made by Apple - Adding a camera releases tons of apps to the Touch user, and also relinquish's Apple's motto of it being "the funnest iPod ever." Plus, we already saw a couple different postings of job offers for an engineer in that department, as well as leaks from 3rd-party companies making cases that show an area for a camera.

Better battery life is something Apple has to upgrade because the prior battery was so subpar, and a faster CPU & GPU are expected by Apple.

I also see a 64 GB model be a 'given' for their most expensive model :cool:

The only other thing I would maybe expect to happen, but believe won't happen - is a FM Transmitter. It could, but Apple missed 'the boat' on FM Radio awhile ago for notorious reasons. I would love this, but Apple through the years, has made a stance on FM radio.

I also wholeheartedly believe we will NOT get a GPS due to the lack of a "strong" GPS chip. Apple knows they have an issue with their weak satellite signal, which makes me assume they are doing R&D as we speak to fix that for future generation Touch's & iPhones. So, for those who want & think you are getting a GPS this time around. It's coming, but it is not here yet ;)

cheers,
CrackBookPro:cool:
 
i'm not reading through all these pages but did anyone mention vibration? if they're targeting the iPod touch to gamers, and most games use vibration, then why not add vibration to it.
 

Yet neither of the articles say anthing about it being a Poor GPS chip. They talk about Antenna nothing about the chip. Its a small phone, it has a small antennae, it wont work good in the big city for GPS turn by turn, I hate to point this out but my tom tom doesnt do particularly well in downtown atlanta for that very reason, thats what the AGPS features are for including the skyhook features. Of course there are lots of threads on here about the weakness of that very same skyhook feature, but you want to keep talking like wi-fi and 3G can get you more accurate then actually using the GPS satellites, so you want to gloss all over that. The fact is that if I take my router from work, 20 miles to my house, and dont reset it to its new coordinates, the 3G phone and AGPS will think I am at my office. I dont know how you think thats more accurate, then me walking outside and getting the sats to tell me where I'm at within 10 feet or so, but you still are arguing that point.

The GPS module in the iPhone 3G & 3Gs are the same, and are far from being solely a stand alone GPS. The current GPS unit still needs to use A-GPS for accuracy & positioning.

No it doesnt. Its easy to prove. Take the phone chip out of your phone, go outside, link with 4 satellites, get a great position. It works, anyone here with a 3G or 3GS phone can see that if they spend 15 minutes doing a test instead of hours on here arguing that they talked to an "expert" at Apple and he told them the total truth, which is different then the total truth they told me. You claim to have a 3G phone, really do the test, its easy and then you wouldnt be posting silly things like you need 3G to get an accurate fix on the GPS, its faster with 3G, it works inside, it uses less power, its not more accurate.

So, here is the conclusion(and try not to take it out of context)... The 3G access is what makes this current GPS 'sing' in speed, position, & accuracy, because of the poor GPS chip in the current model.

Again it has nothing to do with the "poor" chip you keep talking about, that GPS chip is used in several other devices. The chips fine, antennae is the issue and being sure to wait for good TTFF. If Apple told everyone it just takes 15 minutes for the GPS to work the first time you turn the phone on, and btw it will take a good strong drink out of your battery while doing it, and it isnt accurate unless you can get 4 satellite links, noone would think of that as feature, approximate your position by using cell towers to get your initial sat data, and wi-fi using skyhook and use the sats when you have them and this is a much more useful feature much more quickly, however approximations arent more accurate then actually shooting the sats, and so using the 3G is not more accurate.
-Tig
 
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