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iPod touch Realistic Expectations for iPod Touch 3G
- Thread starter sportsfrk214
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be real
a GPS would only work on a iphone, with 3G or EDGE capabilities, the ipod touch 3G will not have a GPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, only google maps!!!!
most likely the ipod touch will have either at the most a 1.3 MP or 2.0 MP camera, yet i hardly doubt it!
second, the ipod touch won't get thinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it will stay the same!!!!!!
third, i think if the ipod touch would come in colors!!!!!!!!!!!!! like red, blue, yellow, white, green
the memory will increase!!! (if the iphone 3G S came out in 32GB then the ipod touch will have a 64 GB)
a GPS would only work on a iphone, with 3G or EDGE capabilities, the ipod touch 3G will not have a GPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, only google maps!!!!
most likely the ipod touch will have either at the most a 1.3 MP or 2.0 MP camera, yet i hardly doubt it!
second, the ipod touch won't get thinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it will stay the same!!!!!!
third, i think if the ipod touch would come in colors!!!!!!!!!!!!! like red, blue, yellow, white, green
the memory will increase!!! (if the iphone 3G S came out in 32GB then the ipod touch will have a 64 GB)
Its funny I have 7 other GPS's, not one of which has 3G or EDGE capability, but apparently you think Apple won't be able to figure out how to do something that dozens of other companies do on a daily basis.
Or most likely the same 3.0 MP still/video camera that the 3GS is using since the software is already worked out on it, and they will saving on part costs etc.
Actually its going to be fatter because of the camera. Maybe not increase the full 0.15 inches of the 3GS vs the 2G Touch, but its going to get fatter.
I really doubt colors are going to happen. This is an expensive device for Apple stores to be stuck with a bunch of unpopular colors. Want a color, get case, you should have one anyways. As for more memory, absolutely, 64 GB for sure, I wish it was 128, but probably not for another year or so.
-Tig
Oh my God. So my Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx does not work since it has no 3G or EDGE! Tell that to the people at Garmin. GPS works via satellite, not 3G.
Fitting a GPS into the current form factor might be an issue, but it does not need 3G or Edge or a phone connection.
It needs 3G to be accurate...
I think you don't understand how assisted GPS works in cellular devices - You are talking about GPS vs assisted GPS. Right now, the iPhone does indeed use 3G to get an exact pinpoint location along with an assisted GPS chip.
Your Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is not an assisted GPS unit
...it works the way you say - via satellite.CrackBookPro
It needs 3G to be accurate...
I think you don't understand how assisted GPS works in cellular devices - You are talking about GPS vs assisted GPS. Right now, the iPhone does indeed use 3G to get an exact pinpoint location along with an assisted GPS chip.
Your Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is not an assisted GPS unit
CrackBookPro
That doesn't mean the Touch couldn't use a real gps chip.
...it could, but the technology coinciding with a consumer price isn't there yet.
Maybe 4th of 5th generation, but it is not going to happen this time around.
I think we will first hear of "collaboration talks" with companies like Garmin and TomTom to see if they could work out a suitable chip.
CrackBookPro
It needs 3G to be accurate...
I think you don't understand how assisted GPS works in cellular devices - You are talking about GPS vs assisted GPS. Right now, the iPhone does indeed use 3G to get an exact pinpoint location along with an assisted GPS chip.
Your Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is not an assisted GPS unit
CrackBookPro
No it doesnt, it can do it off the satellites, with no 3G plugged in. Apple in fact says that on there website, but hey a real easy experiment. Take the phone chip out of your 3G or 3GS phone and go outside. Take a picture and geotag it, now walk 50 feet away, take another picture and geotag it. Amazingly even without 3G, you have two different coordinates for those two different pictures, all without a 3G connection. Its either magic or it uses the satellites, you decide.
-Tig
...who are you kidding
You're wrong bud... http://artoftheiphone.com/2008/06/10/iphone-3g-what-is-assisted-gps/
...the link will help Tig
CrackBookPro
That could work. I'll post a limitation of that later on though.
That's the problem. Apple does not have any deals with any companies offering offline maps. Garmin does. All other GPS companies either make their own, or have deals with other companies.
If Apple downloaded "Google Maps" (as in all the maps, so you can view them in offline mode) we would have a lawsuit within a month.
Apple has never been a company to make maps, and neither is it a company to buy maps. If they were, this would've happened in the iPhone 3GS already.
Simply put, Apple won't be able to use the GPS chip, they can only depend on other companies to put out applications to use the GPS chip.
Typically, that's not what Apple does.
...who are you kidding
You're wrong bud... http://artoftheiphone.com/2008/06/10/iphone-3g-what-is-assisted-gps/
...the link will help Tig
CrackBookPro
Given what I do for a living this is a pretty hilarious arguement for me to be having, but to help you out, as the very first poster said in the thread above, the guy is wrong, read his link and you will understand more of what is going on, and you can go to the apple site and read here:
http://www.apple.com/jp/iphone/features/gps.html
Again exactly why would I give an example thats easy for anyone with a 3G or 3GS phone to try if I was wrong.
-Tig
The App store has lots of apps that use the GPS, Tom Tom, Garmin and Navigon all are working or have finished apps for the Iphone, they are likely going to load maps onto your Iphone/Touch. I seriously doubt that Apple is going to lose out on the money that having the chip in the Ipod touch would bring in to not put a $2.25 part in the touch. I know all about not getting free maps, thats not the point here. Sure you are going to have to either load maps or only get coordinates and how far you have travelled, but being able to geotag photos, and find your way back to your starting location, doesnt even require a map, and you can do that right now with a Iphone with the phone chip pulled out so there is no reason that it can't work on a new Ipod Touch.
-Tig
Tig,
If you do something along these lines of 'GPS' for a living, please talk to an IT guy at Apple, so you are not giving out false information!
I'll make this easy, we started disagreeing when - I said, "you need 3G to be accurate" ... then you said, "No, it doesn't" - Well, you're wrong, it needs 3G to be accurate, and you clarified your own wrong statement with the link you provided
An Apple specialist will blatantly tell you what I am elaborating to you about...The iPhone works off of assisted GPS (A-GPS)... No? ...and 3G (or Wi-Fi) helps to make it an even more accurate position...No?
Tig, to put your point to rest - here's an analogy - If you were out in the ocean fishing 2 miles offshore (still in a 3G network), and then went out to 30 miles (not in a 3G network) would you still have the same accuracy on your GPS for both locations????
The answer is - NO, you are not as accurate without the 3G. You need 3G or a wifi hotspot to gain accuracy. This is true for the iPhone 3G and 3Gs.
Tig - call Apple, write to Apple, email Apple...they will tell you what I am telling you!
...goodluck
CrackBookPro
Basically (besides the given 64gig, Battery, Speed, all of that stuff) the biggest deal will be the camera. We don't know if the ipod touch will have a camera... But I think it's between a cheap camera and a microphone... Apple upgrades every year, so saving these small upgrades for future gens is worthwhile. I'm thinking a microphone is overdue, but I'd much rather have a camera... I'm going to guess a microphone and a 2mp camera with no recording. They want to keep the price down, and making the touch the same as the 3 GS isn't going to be price effective.
Tig,
If you do something along these lines of 'GPS' for a living, please talk to an IT guy at Apple, so you are not giving out false information!
I'll make this easy, we started disagreeing when - I said, "you need 3G to be accurate" ... then you said, "No, it doesn't" - Well, you're wrong, it needs 3G to be accurate, and you clarified your own wrong statement with the link you provided
Please actually read what I asked you to read.
You sent this article:
http://artoftheiphone.com/2008/06/10/iphone-3g-what-is-assisted-gps/
Written by Alan,
The first comment to this article by Jenkins tells you that this is not how A GPS works, please look at this article.
http://www.zenyee.com/2008/04/19/agps-not-a-real-gps/
After which we have a second comment for Alan, saying thanks for clarifying this.
In addition I sent you to the Apple site here:
http://www.apple.com/jp/iphone/features/gps.html
Where it says:
"But the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) solution on iPhone 3G goes a step further, using a unique approach to find the closest satellites and more quickly identify your position. That gives you a faster fix on your location than with regular GPS. "
Faster fix, like the other article says, nothing about more accurate. And then it goes on to say:
"In addition to A-GPS, iPhone 3G uses signals from GPS satellites, Wi-Fi hot spots, and cellular towers to get the most accurate location fast."
Again fast thats why you use AGPS and finding locations where you dont get satellite lock.
The iPhone has AGPS, yes, that means it doesnt use satellites, no. If you dont use the satellites your position is less not more accurate.
Tig, to put your point to rest - here's an analogy - If you were out in the ocean fishing 2 miles offshore (still in a 3G network), and then went out to 30 miles (not in a 3G network) would you still have the same accuracy on your GPS for both locations????
The answer is - NO, you are not as accurate without the 3G. You need 3G or a wifi hotspot to gain accuracy. This is true for the iPhone 3G and 3Gs.
CrackBookPro
Absolutely the same accuracy as long as you can get satellite links in fact GPS off the satellites is more accurate (not less) then cell towers because of roundoff error in calculations. You dont use AGPS for accuracy, you use it for speed to TTFF, you also use it where you can't get a fix on the satellites. Speed to TTFF and finding your location when you can't get a satellite fix is the advantages of AGPS, accuracy is not one of them, due to roundoff errors caused by using cell towers which each have GPS wiggle in them.
-Tig
Tigger,
Don't know where to begin...
The link I sent was the easy clarification for YOU in Laymen's Terms because I looked at some of your previous posts, and it seemed clear you are back n' forth and speculate a ton in your posts, and furthermore make the reader/viewer believe you know the truth when you are totally wrong. The link was correct back than about A-GPS, and still holds partly true, but they clarified it even more in the next link -http://journal.zenyee.com/2008/04/19/agps-not-a-real-gps-myth-or-fact/.
So, let's make things easy - call up Apple and ask what I told you in my previous post!
Let's get one thing straight, what Apple writes on their website is not 100% clear - They market products & services in Laymen's Terms to make the consumer understand a complex issue. I read up, and even called an Apple specialist in 08 to talk about A-GPS, then called again in June to see if the iPhone 3Gs had a different A-GPS. It did not, they just upgraded the compass...
Tig, only one thing left to do... call Apple, and ask for a specialist, and listen to what they say!
CrackBookPro
p.s. Only thing right in your post, is that 3G helps with speed, but guess what - it helps the A-GPS in an iPhone be more accurate.
Don't know where to begin...
The link I sent was the easy clarification for YOU in Laymen's Terms because I looked at some of your previous posts, and it seemed clear you are back n' forth and speculate a ton in your posts, and furthermore make the reader/viewer believe you know the truth when you are totally wrong. The link was correct back than about A-GPS, and still holds partly true, but they clarified it even more in the next link -http://journal.zenyee.com/2008/04/19/agps-not-a-real-gps-myth-or-fact/.
So, let's make things easy - call up Apple and ask what I told you in my previous post!
Let's get one thing straight, what Apple writes on their website is not 100% clear - They market products & services in Laymen's Terms to make the consumer understand a complex issue. I read up, and even called an Apple specialist in 08 to talk about A-GPS, then called again in June to see if the iPhone 3Gs had a different A-GPS. It did not, they just upgraded the compass...
Tig, only one thing left to do... call Apple, and ask for a specialist, and listen to what they say!
CrackBookPro
p.s. Only thing right in your post, is that 3G helps with speed, but guess what - it helps the A-GPS in an iPhone be more accurate.
You send me back the link I sent you as if it would be new to me, really does show you dont know how to begin. Read the article that you are sending back to me and which I had previously sent you twice. I quite clearly points out you are wrong. AGPS is used to find a position faster (it helps with the TTFF problem) and it can find a position in a building or when you can't a satellite fix, it is not more accurate using 3G then with the satellites.
Actually the link was partly correct years before Apple had a phone, its not how it works these days, its not how it works in the Iphone, the second article (the one in the URL above) shows how it works these days, and again points out why you use AGPS, faster at finding first position, find position when you dont have satellites, not more accurate.
No, it doesnt, taking 3 or more approximations to calculate a final number, doesnt make a better final number, thats basic number theory, you probably learned that in school. Again if you have a 3G or a 3GS let me know and I'll tell you another test you can run to prove I'm right, but since you didnt run the photo test which would have shown you that you dont need the 3G chip to geotag on the Iphone, I dont expect you to run this one either.
-Tig
Gps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
even apple.com stated it " But the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) solution on iPhone 3G goes a step further, using a unique approach to find the closest satellites and more quickly identify your position. That gives you a faster fix on your location than with regular GPS"
the ipod touch can't have this cause, it has no 3G abilities!!!!!!!!, so assisted GPS is not truth!!!!, the ipod touch 3G most likely won't have GPS! of any sort, since it only uses wi-fi!!!!!
and i don't think, that apple would place a 3.0 MP camera, cause originally an iphone 3G S would orginally cost over $600 dollars!!, imagine an ipod touch with a 3.0 camera, and a GPS, $$$$$$$$ (where is the money?) that ipod would cost around $500!, that's bad business, apple wants people to buy the iphone 3G S, i don't think that apple would create a device so similar to the iphone, that literally makes the iphone feel like nothing.
i would imagine a 2.0 MP camera, b/c it's a standard camera, for most mobile phones,
even apple.com stated it " But the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) solution on iPhone 3G goes a step further, using a unique approach to find the closest satellites and more quickly identify your position. That gives you a faster fix on your location than with regular GPS"
the ipod touch can't have this cause, it has no 3G abilities!!!!!!!!, so assisted GPS is not truth!!!!, the ipod touch 3G most likely won't have GPS! of any sort, since it only uses wi-fi!!!!!
and i don't think, that apple would place a 3.0 MP camera, cause originally an iphone 3G S would orginally cost over $600 dollars!!, imagine an ipod touch with a 3.0 camera, and a GPS, $$$$$$$$ (where is the money?) that ipod would cost around $500!, that's bad business, apple wants people to buy the iphone 3G S, i don't think that apple would create a device so similar to the iphone, that literally makes the iphone feel like nothing.
i would imagine a 2.0 MP camera, b/c it's a standard camera, for most mobile phones,
...call Apple & let's put this to rest Tiggie
Tiggie,
Here's a start to ending this saga...
...so we disagree about 3G giving accuracy for the iPhone's A-GPS, and we agree that 3G helps in recovery & speed for the iPhone's A-GPS.
...there's only one way one to end it... call Apple Tiggie
...the truth hurts, but get it. I know you "do this for a living," so be good at what you do, and ask for some help.
CrackBookPro
Tiggie,
Here's a start to ending this saga...
...so we disagree about 3G giving accuracy for the iPhone's A-GPS, and we agree that 3G helps in recovery & speed for the iPhone's A-GPS.
...there's only one way one to end it... call Apple Tiggie
...the truth hurts, but get it. I know you "do this for a living," so be good at what you do, and ask for some help.
CrackBookPro
Yes, the Ipod Touch with the same chip would be slower finding the original satellite position, it would be just like every other GPS navigation device (Tom Tom, Garmin, etc), which is what I have been saying the entire time. The Iphone does not need the phone chip in it, to geotag pictures and give you your location anywhere on the planet while outside, there is no reason that the Ipod Touch couldnt be equally as capable as this.
The Iphone 3GS 16 GB costs $179 in parts and labor, sure there is R&D, but the Touch doesnt have near as much because its mostly been done for the Iphone 3GS (btw this $179 is cheaper then what it cost to make the 16 GB 2G Ipod Touch last year). The 3 MP chip costs $9.95 in parts, I really dont think they are going to try and put a less capable camera in the Ipod Touch, which means they have to support two cameras in 3.x software, source two parts, all to save a fraction of $10 (ie the difference between $9.95 and whatever the 2 MP camera would cost). Apple bills the Ipod Touch as the funnest IPOD yet, if you could capture movies and send them to Itunes (ie what people are doing in droves on the Iphone 3GS), that would be another selling point, that would be something that makes the kids want to replace there Ipod touchs, because with 20 million of them out there, thats what apple needs, people swapping up, not people going ho hum, I'll keep my 1G 32 MB.
-Tig
I believe all of what crackbookpro is saying, and I think he is right. But I think I see what Tig is trying to say. So let me take a crack at this.
If you are in the ocean, you are in wide open space. So regardless of whether or not you have 3G, you are going to get a highly accurate reading of where you are.
But doesn't the 3G really come into play in big cities, with tall buildings and lots of trees? These things block the satellite signal, so in this case, 3G would actually make your location more precise.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is all correct. The degree to which 3G makes your location more accurate depends on where you are. In an area where you can communicate with the satellite without anything blocking the signal, you are going to get a highly accurate location even without the "assisting" 3G. However in an area where you can't send a strong signal to the satellite (i.e. big cities), the 3G can help to make your location more accurate.
Please correct me if I'm wrong crackbook
If you are in the ocean, you are in wide open space. So regardless of whether or not you have 3G, you are going to get a highly accurate reading of where you are.
But doesn't the 3G really come into play in big cities, with tall buildings and lots of trees? These things block the satellite signal, so in this case, 3G would actually make your location more precise.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is all correct. The degree to which 3G makes your location more accurate depends on where you are. In an area where you can communicate with the satellite without anything blocking the signal, you are going to get a highly accurate location even without the "assisting" 3G. However in an area where you can't send a strong signal to the satellite (i.e. big cities), the 3G can help to make your location more accurate.
Please correct me if I'm wrong crackbook
You have no source that says its more accurate, the source you are quoting in fact says its faster and can work without satellite reception (which I have been saying all along), but says nothing about it being more accurate. Somehow you think taking 3 or 4 cell towers each with GPS drift in there position and using them to calculate a position is more accurate then shooting the satellites themselves and just having one GPS drift in the equation. How this miracle happens you dont understand, but you are sure it is happening.
...there's only one way one to end it... call Apple Tiggie
:
And when I called apple what answer did I get crackie, that the satellite link is more accurate. Gee I was so surprised by that that. Oh wait no, I was not surprised by that. Now the funny part of this story is that one of my engineers has to wear GPS collar all tomorrow because he thought you were right and that was the wager, but its going to be hot tomorrow so we'll probably let him take it off by lunch. So you make it down this way sometime, or get your hand on an Iphone 3G or 3GS, and I'll prove it to you or you can call Apple back and ask if positioning from the cell towers is more accurate then getting a satellite fix and get confused when they explain that you are wrong.
-Tig
its all about the $$$$$$$
even though the iphone 3gS with contract is $179, according to this website
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/06/15/rogers-fido-no-contract-iphone-3g-s-pricing-revealed-eh/
the iphone 3G S 16 GB, originally cost with no contract!!! at all $699.99!!!
so imagine the good things about a iphone 3GS
-3G, GPS, 3.0 MP Camera, and Video, phone, SMS, etc.. = $699.99 at MSRP
so imagine an ipod touch 3G with
-GPS, 3.0 MP camera and video, etc...= (i would guess around $400)
but nobody will buy a basic 16GB, ipod touch 3G for no more than $400
apple wants to make the ipod appealing, but they need profits too.!!!
ipod touch 8GB 1st gen, macbook w/ 10.5.7 leopard, ipod shuffle, ipod nano,
even though the iphone 3gS with contract is $179, according to this website
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/06/15/rogers-fido-no-contract-iphone-3g-s-pricing-revealed-eh/
the iphone 3G S 16 GB, originally cost with no contract!!! at all $699.99!!!
so imagine the good things about a iphone 3GS
-3G, GPS, 3.0 MP Camera, and Video, phone, SMS, etc.. = $699.99 at MSRP
so imagine an ipod touch 3G with
-GPS, 3.0 MP camera and video, etc...= (i would guess around $400)
but nobody will buy a basic 16GB, ipod touch 3G for no more than $400
apple wants to make the ipod appealing, but they need profits too.!!!
ipod touch 8GB 1st gen, macbook w/ 10.5.7 leopard, ipod shuffle, ipod nano,
Tig, Tigger, Tiggie,
...nice work, I am glad you called
But you probably were not clear on the phone just like you are not clear in all of your posts... You have to ask clear questions, to get clear answers... Tig, sometimes you have to get to the root of the problem...
...and, unfortunately the root of the problem is you - not the GPS collar or whatever childish bet you made with your co-worker I am going to first bring up where the saga began - I made a post(reply#106) to old-wiz(reply#105), telling him that the GPS on a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is different then the GPS used in the iPhone. He was unclear about how A-GPS works on the iPhone - Do we agree on that Tiggie? - The GPS on a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx is not the same GPS on an iPhone
You then commented by a 'quoted post' telling me I was wrong, and that 3G does not give way to accuracy positioning on the iPhone ....Tig, this is where I started second guessing you You either understand that, or you just don't bud If you asked Apple IT about the actual process the A-GPS really goes through - the truth is that the iPhone does not always get a great satellite connection. Apple wishes, but they can't because they do not have a strong enough chip module yet (Apple will tell you & market otherwise). As the Apple specialist could have relayed to you if you asked him clarification - it more or less, needs & uses 3G to gain it's accuracy, because the iPhone is not spec'd properly to always get a clear signal. The Gizmodo article in the link below identifies in the first paragraph the lack of a signal, and also talks about the assistance server that monitors GPS, wi-fi, and cell towers (3G) in a combination to gain the most accuracy. But, on the other hand Tigs, in a certain aspect, you will be glad to know the article actually agrees with what you are saying about still getting a 'guestimated location' without a cell tower (3G) or wi-fi. The only problem though is REALITY - and the reality is, that cellular connection (3G) is what makes the iPhones GPS a feasible solution for getting an accurate mobile location (and why I don't think it will be in the 3rd Gen Touch).
Here's why I called Apple last summer and started gaining interest into the logistics of their A-GPS...this is from Gizmodo in June of 2008 commenting on the A-GPS in the iPhone 3G - http://gizmodo.com/5015930/giz-explains-what-you-didnt-know-about-the-iphone-3gs-gps
...so, after the 3Gs came out in June of 2009, I wanted to know if there A-GPS has changed the way it pinpoints a location. So, I called Apple last month, and they assured me that the A-GPS works the same, but they added a built-in digital compass that can automatically reposition a map to match the direction you’re facing.
Tigger, you and I could argue about this forever because we are not talking apples to apples. I know you believe exactly what Apple broadly communicates about GPS, but you have to realize, I went a step further and asked the daily logistics of the A-GPS on the iPhone to an Apple specialist more than once, and got the same answer about the iPhone 3G & 3Gs - The iPhone needs 3G to be accurate, and in places where you do not have 3G service you may find a loss of accuracy.
...you can experience it first hand by going to the boonies or go offshore fishing or a trip to the desert and/or wilderness. Find a place where you aren't even close to a 3G cell tower, and see what you find. Then, see the accuracy when you get in range of 3G.
...there's a difference!
CrackBookPro