Recall

[shakenmartini]

you should be banned from macrumors. Rational and common sense answers are not allowed.

, yeah, sometimes rational thought is absent on these here internets!

I'm just waiting for someone to put one of those "stick on" signal boosters onto their iPhone and report a huge increase in signal!

The bottom line without test equipment and getting a reading of the signal in dB and the power that BOTH the tower and the internal antenna is currently running at, "bars" of signal tell you nothing touching the phone or otherwise.

If an update indeed comes out on Monday, then my money is on the problem being the firmware is to slow to detect the attenuation of the phone movement and having a someones huge meaty palms in between the tower and the phone and doesn't ramp up the antenna power fast enough, probably affecting the 1900 band. Easy problem to solve and is a very common problem in cell phones (especially with multiple antennas).

This was a problem with the Motorola Q and this same issue delayed the deployment of the Motorola Q on the Alltel network for a few months while Alltel made Motorola fix it. The Q was a ruberized phone, but holding the phone would massively attenuate the signal. Alltel was one of the few good cell companies who actually tested their phones extensively in the field and make the manufacturer fix issues like this before they would release the phones.

 

[msduncan]

Probably more like 1-2% I would guess.

Doesnt matter if you do 100 good things, its the 1 bad thing that people will remember.

If this problem really is only affecting 1-2% of the phones, should I take my phone to the local Apple store for an exchange?

 

[shakenmartini]

So apple's research and development team that came up with the "stainless steel band" iphone4 antenna innovation, trumpeted by Jobs during the keynote, is actually on par with phones produced circa 1997.

WTF?

No, the problem is that when you go from a model where you have an antenna sticking off the top of the phone to either a fractal based internal design, and internal linear design or Apple's design, you have to design your software to deal with the fact that the phone will be held in hand.

Thus your phone signal will go from great service when it isn't being held, to having a hand and head in between the tower and your phone, right as a call is being connected.

This means unlike with an antenna sticking up, you have to design software to ramp up the power of the antenna quickly to prevent the call from dropping as you move around and as you pick up the phone.

Since hand held phones are also limited to 0.3 W, and have very strict battery requirements, this is a very challenging problem for all phones makers.

Have you ever spent the day in an area with low signal quality (e.g. 1 bar). Ever notice that your battery dies quickly? Ever make calls or use data in this area and notice you get about half the talk time or less? This is because when the phone is idle it has to ramp up its antenna to even see the tower and has to ramp up the power even more just to connect a call.

Without these battery saving techniques of varying the antenna power, you would never get the great battery life on any mobile phone.

Why does flesh do this so well? Flesh is mostly made up of water, and water really likes to absorb micro-waves at similar wavelengths to what cell phone towers use.

 

[panzer06]

If this problem really is only affecting 1-2% of the phones, should I take my phone to the local Apple store for an exchange?

A few folks here have commented on it being certain people who are more likely to have the issue and that those people can recreate the problem at will while others not as sensitive can't cause the problem no matter how they hold the phone.

If that's the case, I don't know if firmware would/could resolve it.

Cheers,

 

[iOrlando]

, yeah, sometimes rational thought is absent on these here internets!

I'm just waiting for someone to put one of those "stick on" signal boosters onto their iPhone and report a huge increase in signal!

The bottom line without test equipment and getting a reading of the signal in dB and the power that BOTH the tower and the internal antenna is currently running at, "bars" of signal tell you nothing touching the phone or otherwise.

If an update indeed comes out on Monday, then my money is on the problem being the firmware is to slow to detect the attenuation of the phone movement and having a someones huge meaty palms in between the tower and the phone and doesn't ramp up the antenna power fast enough, probably affecting the 1900 band. Easy problem to solve and is a very common problem in cell phones (especially with multiple antennas).

This was a problem with the Motorola Q and this same issue delayed the deployment of the Motorola Q on the Alltel network for a few months while Alltel made Motorola fix it. The Q was a ruberized phone, but holding the phone would massively attenuate the signal. Alltel was one of the few good cell companies who actually tested their phones extensively in the field and make the manufacturer fix issues like this before they would release the phones.

well i tried to relay the same message to other people.

the kickback i am getting is:

well why did Steve Jobs say we are holding it wrong and...look at the youtube videos of calls being dropped....that means its real and not just display bar manipulation.

I actually think Steve Jobs might not have been fully aware of this issue and just figured it was some drunk who was messing around. We all know Steve isnt an engineer and as seen in many keynotes he really doesnt know a ton of details about the guts of things (which is totally fine by me).

and I guess the rest of the trolls cant seem to understand how software can control the antenna strength.

i have a 3GS and i am having the same issues as Iphone 4. (difference being if i hold the phone in my right hand). was never an issue before upgrading to iOS4.

 

[.Andy]

WTF?

Apologies if I confused you to the point of exclamation.

What you're saying is that the iphone 4 antenna, despite 13 years of design and research over phones from 1997, does not overcome the problem of one's hand interfering with reception. That's all. From the point of view of more powerful reception or better battery life might well by much, much more efficient. However a major flaw of an internal antenna is not corrected by Apple's "innovative stainless steel band antenna".

 

[iOrlando]

Apologies if I confused you to the point of exclamation.

What you're saying is that the iphone 4 antenna, despite 13 years of design and research over phones from 1997, does not overcome the problem of one's hand interfering with reception. That's all. From the point of view of more powerful reception or better battery life might well by much, much more efficient. However a major flaw of an internal antenna is not corrected by Apple's "innovative stainless steel band antenna", despite it being one of the trumpeted selling points of this new product.

if I understood the problem correctly, the issue is happening when the software speaks to the antenna. the problem is not with the antenna. the antenna is perfectly fine but the software is not booting it up to compensate for interference via thumb, finger, etc.

 

[panzer06]

WTF? Do you think just because you and some other people are having problems that everyone is? Alot of people have iPhones that work fine and if that bothers you then sorry. That's just the way it is.

If it were really a problem where are the lines with people returning the 600,000 iPhone 4 sold?

Mines fine, what's the problem?

I love mine it's working flawlessly I can make calls and i haven't dropped any since i've had my iphone 4, No yellow screen , No prox sensor problems and no camera issues. Apple IMO at least for mine has outperformed itself

You just think it’s perfect:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/952251/

It obviously has damage you can’t see. Oh, and just because it works, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have damage.

Perhaps it's not the phone but the person. In reading these threads it's been mentioned a few times that some people have a more physical interaction with electronic or mechanical devices while others do not.

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/10317697/

Perhaps this is why the problem does not seem as widespread. Such people exist but most devices aren't sensitive to their own personal em field (or whatever it is). Maybe this phone is more sensitive and therefore even people with a more mild form of interference can cause this issue. Seems to me some testing with people who have what they feel are perfect phones allow some of their peers with supposed defected phones try to recreate the problem and visa versa.

Would be interesting to try.

Cheers,

 

[Built]

Apple will fix the hardware design silently... production after a certain date..

All the first buyers will end up with lemon phones and probably depending on their phone's production date, they'll catch less money in second hand market....

They may get a free $.50 rubber or not - probably not. Apple would rather like you to pay $30 for it....... but waiting in line for hours like dipsht to be the first to buy a lemon phone will, I am sure, be priceless and remembered and laughed at for years to come....

Do you feel better now?

I guess you weren't able to pre-order, or couldn't afford it.

 

[a3silver]

Exactly. (And I'm not saying this is going to happen...just that it's the worst-case scenario that's possible.)

Anyone who think that a recall is more likely than this outcome needs to explain why they think that.

I can't think of a single good reason, nor has anyone pointed one out yet. The thread title is ridiculous unless someone can address this.

There is no reason and no precedent for a recall of a product like this. It would, as others have stated already, have had to actually cause physical harm. If the batteries were shorting, and exploding iPhone 4's like grenades, I'm with you, definite recall. Sorry, emotional distress doesn't count.

If HW tweak occurs after a certain date, they'll issue a TSB or whatever apple call it providing customers who complain replacement under some specific criteria. Reference all the early problems with the 27" iMacs.

 

[Rm.237]

Pfft. Prediction? Now only if this thread was Confirmed.

 

[Nyse]

Jesus, I hope not!! I have about 60k tied up in apple right now. I was hoping all of you would keep it shooting up! Lol. A recall, Steve kicking the bucket, or even free bumpers would be devastating for earnings, which is the basis for the stock price. Even this bad pr is hurting the price with people selling off.

Let's keep positive!!!

 

[shakenmartini]

Apologies if I confused you to the point of exclamation.

What you're saying is that the iphone 4 antenna, despite 13 years of design and research over phones from 1997, does not overcome the problem of one's hand interfering with reception. That's all. From the point of view of more powerful reception or better battery life might well by much, much more efficient. However a major flaw of an internal antenna is not corrected by Apple's "innovative stainless steel band antenna".

What apple is apparently trying to do with their antenna design is to reap the benefits of an external antenna with all the benefits (form-wise) of an internal antenna. iPhones and iTouches have had pretty bad reception IMHO. Both Wifi and cellular have been much worse than what I used to get with other phones and devices. The original iPhone was about the worst. The 3G style with a plastic case was an improvement, but still problematic.

What leads me to believe it is in the firmware is that the 3Gs with iOS suffers from the same problem which should not have issues with physical contact in the 3Gs with the new firmware. Also because the issue is flaky and subtle would lead me to believe firmware tweaks are in order rather than a full out design defect. Apple also employs PhD engineers who know their stuff and they wouldn't let this type of defect go out the door, no matter what Jobs says and not matter what you are reading on the internets.

From what I have seen with mine, they did a pretty good job. Not perfect, but nothing that some software tweaks can't fix. I have also had phones that had really poor internal antennas and firmware (e.g. early LG phones really sucked). Those phones never got firmware or hardware updates to fix the issues, just had to shell out more money when my contract ended for a decent phone.

As to what Jobs said, I think he was insinuating that if you put your whole hand over the antenna your are going to have problems (with any phone). Put this to rest and just use your phone normally!

At the end of the day, an iPhone has a 14 day return period. If you really believe this is such a major hardware defect, take back your iPhone and exchange it for a 3Gs with iOS4, or get yourself and Andoroid device. I think the fact that there are not thousands of people lined up at Apple stores returning their iPhone 4s speaks to the fact that this is really a minor issue that in all likely hood will be fixed soon.

 

[garp]

Recalling 1.5 million iPhones would probably cost $400 million, stocks would drop, and that would be bad news for the company. The issue isn't bad enough for a recall, that's for sure. Free bumpers would be the best solution, with no recall necessary afterwards.

To put this in perspective, Apple has $40 Billion in cash reserves, so even a $400 Million recall expense would be a bump on a log to them. That said, this really does seem to be storm in a teacup that is getting blown out of all proportion.

 

[iOrlando]

Apple also employs PhD engineers who know their stuff and they wouldn't let this type of defect go out the door, no matter what Jobs says and not matter what you are reading on the internets.

As to what Jobs said, I think he was insinuating that if you put your whole hand over the antenna your are going to have problems (with any phone). Put this to rest and just use your phone normally!

At the end of the day, an iPhone has a 14 day return period. If you really believe this is such a major hardware defect, take back your iPhone and exchange it for a 3Gs with iOS4, or get yourself and Andoroid device. I think the fact that there are not thousands of people lined up at Apple stores returning their iPhone 4s speaks to the fact that this is really a minor issue that in all likely hood will be fixed soon.

who are you kidding. posters on macrumors and gizmodo know more than apple engineers about apple products.

 

[Glideslope]

this reception issue is quickly spiraling out of control and getting worse by the minute. anyone who has been able to reproduce it or is not an iSheep knows that this cripples the iphone for both calling and internet. they will have no choice but recall or face massive PR hit and lawsuits

Tuesday. It's always a Tuesday.

 

[HarrisonB]

jesus. Dont put your finger over the tiny crack. Problem solved. Stop crying and use your damn phone. I haven't dropped 1 call since i Have gotten it. And to those reproduce this people, I can reproduce my blackberry turning off by by taking the battery out every time. Why would I try to reproduce something that does not affect me or happens without trying?

 

[sjinsjca]

Do you guys think in the near future that apple will do a recall since there are so many negative post/news about the new iphone 4?

Funny how none of the reviewers who got an iPhone before mass shipments began and whose commentary was embargoed until this past Wednesday experienced this issue. Many praised the unit as having better reception and fewer dropped calls than the 3GS.

I suspect we have a bit of mass hysteria going on.

 

[HarrisonB]

Did you know, you can't hear the speaker when you cover it with your finger!

 

[Bill Gates]

who are you kidding. posters on macrumors and gizmodo know more than apple engineers about apple products.

Obviously you're not an engineer yourself.

 

[HarrisonB]

Really? So now you're this genius and the rest of the thousands are idiots. Self-absorbed much?

No the 97% of people who love thier iphones are not idiots. The idiots are the ones who insist on recreating an issue that they don't have to. I get way better cell service and much much better wifi reception with the new antenna design. Most of the nerds on this forum use cases anyways so I truly don't see the problem here.

 

[br0adband]

So I guess my "software" aka my fingertip is to blame for the "hardware" aka the metal band antenna and the iPhone 4 itself losing signal then losing service on a 100% reproducible basis even though I'm practically within throwing distance of a cell site...

Riiiigggghhhhhttttttt... as Dr. Evil would say.

shakenmartini's explanation has a lot of weight to it, I'll grant him that, but when my fingertip can cause loss of signal down down down and then absolute loss of service (detailed process in the post linked in my sig) well... buddy, that's a hardware problem.

Defective by design...

 

[HarrisonB]

So I guess my "software" aka my fingertip is to blame for the "hardware" aka the metal band antenna and the iPhone 4 itself losing signal then losing service on a 100% reproducible basis even though I'm practically within throwing distance of a cell site...

move your fingertip 1mm?

 

[br0adband]

move your fingertip 1mm?

Sure, if Apple redoes every single piece of marketing imagery and video footage showing their own demos holding the phone like probably 90%+ of the people that own them do: in the left hand (note I said 90% or higher as I'm trying to account for left handers that hold it in the right) and in doing so will bridge that connection between the antenna bands.

Look, nobody is saying is not a great product, we're saying it's a great product that is defective by design on this particular issue. If you yourself are not having this issue, consider yourself quite fortunate and be happy that it never does become an issue.

But many of us and more by the minute do and are experiencing it and it's not right. When you're selling a hand-held cellular phone that doesn't work when it's held in the hand that's a major problem, like it or not. No other phone of the hundreds I've used over the years can be made to lose signal and service entirely just by touching it - but that's innovation for you because Apple is the first to create a phone that does.

The bump case has one purpose: to prevent skin-on-metal contact. It shouldn't even be called a bump case - it should just be called a bumper (which Apple does officially call it) since that's what it does primarily. The skin-on-metal contact is what's causing the issues, that means hardware, and most likely will not be "fixed" by a simple firmware update unless the firmware update completely disables the left band antenna and re-routes the signal to the right band antenna and even then it's not going to fully address the one simple fact that people will have to deal with sooner or later:

Defective by design...

 

[Loves2spoon]

Why is it that all the white phones at WWDC had full bars? Did anyone miss this?

If apple recalled all the phones just think what would happen to there stock... Poor Steve.