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Neither PC stores nor physical stores have a duopoly. Further, MS does not prevent anyone from making apps for their OS. Console makers sell the devices for little to no profit (actually at a loss generally) and then make it up on game sales. Apple does not. They make a boatload of money on the hardware. However, if regulators wanted to force console makers to change their business model, I'd be down for that.

Because capitalism. Companies get to define their profit margins and business model. Console makers CHOOSE to make a small profit on their machines. I'd be all for a 15% margin on everything, make it law. Want to make more too bad, its not fair , make it an across the board 15% margin, oh and lets make it 40% tax rate for everyone especially corporations.

Btw, the price of that donut that I buy better change since Joe called in sick and that day, the coffee shops margins was $80 lower. We get into dangerous territory when we let governments choose what is a "reasonable" profit margin.
 
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This completely misses the point.

On an iPhone the only App Store you can purchase anything from is Apple's App Store, and it's not even just purchases from there. Any app with a subscription has to go through Apple. I have no choice whatsoever and Apple has the upper hand every time as they either get 100% for their apps/services, or 30% of others. All those examples you've given above you at least have a choice of supplier.

It's plainly anti-competitive.

You have a choice too, go Android.
 
Very true.
It is still a major - and third largest - phone OS though. I mean one can also argue the iPhone is largely irrelevant outside of North America. The iPhone has a 5-20% market share in most the world, and really is only a major player in the US/Canada.
iOS is not largely irrelevant lol. If you compare iOS to android as a whole then yes. 20-25 percent global market share vs 1000s of android phones is amazing especially since everyone wants the prestige and mindshare iPhones have. Including Samsung.
 
I recently purchased a magazine at Costco. I paid Costco for the magazine. They got their profit margin, just like Apple does for any. Fair enough.

Except that I then subscribed to the magazine. In Apple's world, Costco should get 30% of that subscription for as long as I'm subscribed. Actually, in Apple's world, the magazine wouldn't even be allowed to have one of those subscription inserts. I would have to go back to Costco and tell them I want to subscribe to this magazine.
Except that due to the volume they sell, Apple negotiated a custom insert in those magazines, if you use the code that is linked to the promotional code in the magazine, Apple gets a cut in perpetuity. Don't use the special code, Apple gets nothing. Magazine was happy to make that arrangement since it sold tons of magazines and subscriptions.

10 years later they said, we no longer like this deal. Apple Legal response : read the contract you signed ...
 
But this is the core of the problem that people seem unable to comprehend. Of course you should be expected to pay a fee to Costco to sell your brand. But if I want to sell my widget online, on my own website, should I still have to pay Costco a fee? Or anyone for that matter? I designed it, I made it, and I marketed it and I want to sell it and keep the proceeds. If I used tools, I bought those tools. Should I have to, for eternity, pay the tool-maker a fee for everything I make with those tools?

You can build your own store, buy without paying the fee, you can't sell you stuff at Costco.

A recurring revenue stream has become a requirement to support any large tech company. The mentality of I bought it and therefore should be able to do anything I want doesn't work any more, that business model is dead.

I work in Telecom, if you want enterprise or higher grade gear with multi year support, you have no choice but to pay annual support costs and/or subscription fees for usage. The NASDAQ made em do it....

Of course, but the example from @generationrex (a very good one) is a scenario where you CAN subscribe within the app and Apple gets it's 30% of that subscription, which is why in-app subscriptions are typically higher in cost, so as to take into account that 30% loss. Most companies can't just eat 30%. 3%, yes (such as when paying with a CC), but 30% is tough and it just results in higher prices for everyone.

I have not seen any large developer come out and say that they would pass on the 27% discount for clients. Big devs just want to keep that money.

Sounds like Apple is practically giving away their developer kit. Maybe they should change that instead of extorting the people that write the apps that keep people buying their products?

That would penalize small devs. The fact that for $100 you can make the next Billion Dollar App is a testament to the platform. There are many free Apps, for those, Apple collects $100 a year and not a penny more.

Best Buy gets between 30-50% of everything they sell.

They certainly do not. There is a possibility that Best Buy makes more margin on a $80 HDMI cable than a $6000 TV. Warranty, Accessories are high margin products, many electronics are NOT.

How does this
It still blows my mind that people defend this trillion dollar mafia like they're family when they should be questioning this greedy behaviour.

You're defining capitalism.

They really are a monopoly at this point, they think they can do as they please and bully everyone.

No court has ruled them a monopoly, this has been tested many times in many countries.
 
I am actually glad that my grandmother gets asked and informed before someone grinds her data like a perv.

You’re glad your grandma is willingly giving up more data than she previously had to or breaking the functionality of websites by declining required ones? It’s a law that looks good, but is so poorly implemented it’s pointless. Just like this. Another flop by out of touch old people. It’s been so poorly received, they’re looking at ways already to end it with a “cookie pledge” instead.
 
The model they have built here restricts choice and information. It's incredibly anti-competitive. I can only imagine the reaction if Microsoft used their Windows market share to enable this kind of model.

You need to study up on your history. Microsoft rules the PC industry with scuzzy deals for decades. They changed their practices due to regulatory pressure and "NATURAL" competition.

auto fast foward in the video service I'm paying for is not piracy. I'm not taking anyone's revenue.

If the content sponsor is not even given a chance to present their product to you, and they see no revenue thanks to this sponsorship they will not sponsor again. You are taking away potential revenue from the content creator and the advertiser. I skip the adds manually but at the very least, the name of the sponsor imprints on me. If the adds are invisible, no one will buy them.

Ultimately content creators need to make the parts of the video they want to be watched to be engaging as there is no legal nor moral obligation for a viewer to watch any segment of a video they don't find engaging.
The "unfair" part is that with a blocker app/plug-in, you're not even giving them a chance. You can choose to do what you like, but you don't get to dictate the business model.

Similarly, I always see security concerns brought up when discussing sideloading. Consumers know there is malicious software out there and they should be expected to know what they're installing on their phone and if they don't then they are expected to educated themselves.

Let them fend for themselves .. that is your solution? I type Bakn Of America into Google and downloaded an app, now all my money is gone. Apple tries to keep true spammy apps out of the store, they aren't perfect but they reject millions of apps for poor behaviour, what vetting is there from a third party store.
 
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No one is taking anyone's money by skipping part of the video. And he never said that. Stop projecting Timmy!
Advertising only works and is profitable when people see the add .

Apple is like the IRS they will still get at the revenue they feel they’re owed.
laws, taxes .. gross

It's about competition. When one dominant player abuses it's market position to hamper competition, there should be laws to reign them in. Similar things happen in many different domains like telecoms, financial markets, energy. And everywhere there is regulation to increase competition, which leads to better outcomes for customers.

How well is this regulation working in the US for Broadband. I have 4 national players for gasoline in Canada, price is often the same. Competition does not guarantee lower prices for consumers, it just offers some choice.

And if they EU wants to regulate the players of console games sales as well, have at it I say. I see no sacred cows, unlike some folks view of Apple.

I don't consider Apple sacred in any way. But I will defend that business has the right to choose its margin. There are laws that dictate what isn't a legal lending rate (therefore limiting margin). No one supporting the free market wants to have government decide, what is and inst reasonable margin. The business will pay the consequences if others choose to deliver services at a lower marking and their customers flee.

Comparing an iPhone you bought to a physical store is beyond idiotic. The far more accurate analogy is buying a house manufactured by a company and then not being allowed to have anything delivered to you unless the business's products are on the approved company list and the maker of your home gets a cut of every delivery, in addition not being allowed to go out of the gate to grab the package.

Or it's like buying a house in an HOA where someone else decided what colour you can paint "YOUR HOUSE!". You bought the product, were presented with a contract, signed it .. no backsies

For example, we appropriately applaud Apple for their investment in accessibility features in iOS. The R&D costs for some of those implementations would be cost-prohibitive for any single developer. But developers benefit directly since it expand their addressable market or allows them to retain users who have become disabled. Because iOS is the most profitable mobile platform, such investment is allowed by shareholders who would otherwise question the ROI.

And that development is funded by BOTH the hardware sales and sales through the App Store. Companies get to decide their margins, until someone tells em different, no one has yet.

Apple can charge what they want. They can also compete with Epic, Spotify or whoever. But the competition needs to be fair.
It is fair. Don't like the rules of the platform, build your own. Epic/Spotify could say, build their own hardware and OS. Nothing is stopping them from doing that. There is even a chance that that platform is compelling enough for many IOS to abbadnon ship (unlikely in my opinion). They don't want to do that because IOS/Android platforms have taken investment of hundreds of billions of dollars to get where they are today.

Corporations will always charge more money, if they can get away with it. Look at Apple's margins. They don't need to cross-subsidize anything. They are rent-seeking from an artificially created monopoly.
No it's a business model !

Competition is more important than a free market.

No. Competition does not mean differing prices. A free market allows competitors to choose/set prices. The free market creates competition.

Once iOS devices are sold at break-even, or as a loss-leader, then I'll take your point into consideration.

...but not a minute before that.

Who died and made you the great decider of what someone else can charge for their stuff? Don't like their actions, don't buy the products. You can't just decide which parts of a EULA or Contract you want to honour.
 
It is not a joke. It is how it should be. On a Mac.

macOS and iOS are completely different worlds.

The context here is people saying iOS should just operate like macOS and gatekeeper is “good enough”. But it’s not. You can bypass it with two clicks. I don’t want this on iOS.
 
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I'll never support a rent-seeking services-based economy.

So no hotel rental for you then ... or air bnb .... ?

Very strange that you all signed a contract before swiping your card to buy the iPhone. I've never had to sign a contract with Apple to walk out of the store with an iPhone.

You have but don't know it. The contract is implicit. The full details of license for the product you are buying does not need to be presented in print form at point of sale. Open the box, turn on the product, accept license agreement (you can't get past that) you've signed a contract.

I'm not sure I understand how they intend this do this.
So I write an app and publish it GitHub. User can sideload by downloading the app from GitHub and install it directly, not via the App Store.
How are Apple in anyway a party in this transaction to be able to lay claim to anything from me at this point?

Because you singed a legal agreement saying you agree with the terms of the platform (which includes a commission of up to 30% on In App Content Consumed). The only way to develop for the platform is to sign the contract. Done like it, sell your app elsewhere.

I wouldn’t say it’s too hard, it’s just the way my use case landed. 👍
There are plenty of Apple apps, and of course Safari (always in private mode of course) is a literal gateway app to things like this, and eBay…
I use the Apple apps 🙂 on my iPhone and the TV ones on my ATV (I don’t buy or subscribe to things).

Hang on - I get YouTube premium free with my plan so that might count as a subscription, and I guess the one single program I have side loaded is UAD Luna on my iMac, again free.
Where are you finding legal sources for all the content you watch? All the power to you, you are in the minority, by a fair margin.

Nice, isn't it?

Nice for everyone but the artist. Competition for our dollars, yep, competition for artists , hardly.

I’m confident that large developers, like Meta, Adobe, Epic, will invest in requiring both iOS and Android users to side load and pay for their apps and services directly from their propriety apps.
They'll have to ask a very loyal fanbase, who do you like more, some customers will answer Apple . That is a gamble some companies may not be willing to undertake.

Did you have this pro-Apple stance for them charging everyone money before the news of such a thing came out today?

I don't know how you can justify a trillion dollar company sucking every penny it can out of every consumer on the planet. It's severely lacking any kind of integrity.
I'm not going to say that this level of capitalism is good or healthy, it's not. The problem is, that this is the model that we 'society' call capitalism expects/demands that. If you make 40% on your first dollar earned, at what point does a party say whoa that is too much? Who gets to decide ?
 
Sell a product in Costco and you have to pay for inventory storage, shipping, safety regs, taxes and other such charges plus Costco's own commission. This would cost a lot more than 30%.
The endless comparisons to brick and mortar stores miss two points. One, software distributed online doesn't have the same costs as a physical store or even an online store selling physical goods. With software and media downloads being mainstream for about 25 years, it's weird to make that the baseline. Two, and more important in this situation, there are no cities I'm aware of where half the citizens are only allowed to shop at one store. Those simplistic comparisons stop being relevant when normal market forces are removed.
 
I feel 30% is a bit high, but frankly speaking, if I'm making a good amount and have access to billions of customers in a single shot in a single appstore, then paying 30% cut 1 won't mind, though it's a hurting pinch.
 
This whole thread reminds me of all the comments advising Apple as to what they should do about the Apple Watch, what Apple did wrong, how they months to prevent this, how they should just pay for the patents, etc…

Well, I just looked, and it appears that the Apple Watch is available for order right now. It was off the Apple Store shelves for a grand total of two days, after the holiday season ended.

Looks like Apple might just know what they are doing?! I guess there is a reason why the Apple employees running things are multi-millionaires and the government employees are, well, are public servants.

You all can bet that the EU is going to be pissed at them circumventing their rules and fine Apple billion of dollars. My money is on Apple though.
 
It's not irrelevant and it does add justification. You can't sell hardware at a loss and then not make it up somewhere. Unless you consider bankruptcy a desirable outcome. And as I said, if the EU has a problem with that model then I'd have no qualms with them going after that business model either, just like I have no problem with them going after Apple's. At the end of the day both models are set up to do nothing more than extract as much money from consumers' wallets as possible. Newsflash: billion and trillion dollar corporations are not your friend and are not looking out for your best interest. They're there to happily take your money and pass it along to shareholders.
It is a company’s choice to price. The fact that the console makers decided to dump the product into the market does no more justify their 30% than anything else. It may be a good sound bite but it is irrelevant. You are basically saying that if Apple had dumped the iPhone into the market in 2007 with the aim to “make it up” somewhere else (wireless fees, partnerships, eventual App Store fees, whatever) then there would be no room to complain about the App Store fees. That is BS. Apple sold at a premium as they knew what they had. And they did it at a time they were nit really strong enough to pull it off either.
 
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And what was the initial investment? $100.00 for a whole year!

Remember when Visual Studio and MSDN costed thousands of $$$ ?
Small developers couldn't afford it.
Also, small developers pay much less than 30%.

So let's say you sell $1000 in apps in a year, you pay Apple $300 and you keep $700.00.
$300/year is nothing compared to the actual cost of operations and maintenance of your own Apps Store or website, plus having to pay 3% or more to your payment processor.
If you don't do it yourself, you'll have to hire someone to take care of it. How much would it cost you?

Apple doesn't charge you a penny if you don't charge for your app. your business may benefit in many ways by having a free app available at the App Store (Advertising, exposure, value added services to your clients, etc.). All that for free.
If you make profit, well, share it. There wouldn't be profit without the App Store.

Now, are you expecting another App Store to distribute your app for free? That's what it seems some people are daydreaming about these days. Good luck with that.
Yeah all other app store will be run by red cross and all money will just go to the dev./s
 
The context here is people saying iOS should just operate like macOS and gatekeeper is “good enough”. But it’s not. You can bypass it with two clicks. I don’t want this on iOS.

I understand. And they are wrong, because iOS is nothing like macOS.

When users have full control of iOS, down to terminal/unix base commands - then iOS can copy macOS’s gatekeeper system.
 
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