Return black to get white iPhone?

[samcraig]

When did I say I'm entitled to anything more than what I purchased? I purchased an iPhone 4 that doesn't work. I want an iPhone 4 that works. K? I don't, however, believe that I deserve a refurbished phone which is what I'd receive if I exchanged it.

And, if you'd carefully read my original post, I didn't expect Apple to be responsible for my inability to wait. I bought a black iPhone 4 and was going to keep it. In light of the antenna issue, however, I'm going to return it and would like to, instead of getting a black refurbished phone, get a new white iPhone. How is that naive?

What is "naive" is assuming that I haven't an idea of how things like this work. I'm an employee of Apple (not in a retail store) and I can assure you that I know much more about the inner workings of my company than you do. Don't be so self assured to call me naive.

Well for one - Apple isn't giving refurbished units (yet).

Second - if you're an employee of Apple, I would think that perhaps you might be "entitled" to different exchange rules. At least I would think so - but perhaps not. perhaps you're just like the rest of us when it comes to Apple policy.

 

[cgentry]

if you're an employee of Apple, I would think that perhaps you might be "entitled" to different exchange rules. At least I would think so - but perhaps not. perhaps you're just like the rest of us when it comes to Apple policy.

There very well could be in the retail stores. I am not, however, employed under the retail section of Apple.

 

[mmyers0520]

Nope. Everyone doesn't get AppleCare for the first year. AppleCare gets you unlimited phone tech support whereas the out of the box warranty only gets you 90 days.. So there's a difference.

I wanted the white. I'll be honest. But, when the black came out, I decided I'd get that one and be happy with it for 2 years. I had absolutely no intention whatsoever of trying to exchange for white or "cheating the system". I was content with my black iPhone 4. Apple, however, gave me a defective device. I've lived with it for close to a month and, after numerous dropped calls, would like a different phone that, you know, works. With the white iPhone right around the bend, what should stop me from purchasing a white iPhone? Apple gave me a faulty product, I want another one. Oh, there are other color options and I prefer a different color than my original? So be it. And all the people saying, "Well Apple can't sell those as new now, blah blah," are advising those of us with defective phones to take them back and get them exchanged with a refurbished phone. I don't want that! I want what I should have had in the first place. A new phone that works. A phone that makes phone calls. And, you know what, I want the white one. If Apple is putting me through this much hassle of having to return the broken phone, they might as well let me choose which color I want.

Amen...to a point. I could care less about color but the phone portion of your argument I agree with. Damnnnn straight

 

[beamer8912]

When did I say I'm entitled to anything more than what I purchased? I purchased an iPhone 4 that doesn't work. I want an iPhone 4 that works. K? I don't, however, believe that I deserve a refurbished phone which is what I'd receive if I exchanged it.

And, if you'd carefully read my original post, I didn't expect Apple to be responsible for my inability to wait. I bought a black iPhone 4 and was going to keep it. In light of the antenna issue, however, I'm going to return it and would like to, instead of getting a black refurbished phone, get a new white iPhone. How is that naive?

What is "naive" is assuming that I haven't an idea of how things like this work. I'm an employee of Apple (not in a retail store) and I can assure you that I know much more about the inner workings of my company than you do. Don't be so self assured to call me naive.

Interesting. So you've confirmed there is actually an antenna problem, not just a loss in signal. All we need is proof your an Apple employee and we're set. You won't have any qualms showing proof will you? We should get Arn in here so he can break the story.

Yes, again, you are entitled to a phone that works. However, as an employee of Apple you should know the "refurb" units are in BETTER condition then most new units. New units undergo minimal testing, where as refurbs under go vigorous testing. As an Apple employee shouldn't you know things like this?

At this point we might just start seeing actual refurbs. For the first couple weeks there were no "refurbs" as no phones had been returned. They were all new phones, just not boxed. Confirmed from other Apple employees.

Why would you take advantage of the company you work for? You know that is not what the return policy is meant for. You know Apple can exchange (like for like) your phone for a working phone, and you know Apple doesn't do color swaps.

Plain and simple, as an employee of Apple you know better than most that you're scamming the system, yet you choose to do it anyway.

 

[iphone3gss]

Take a simple business course, or google sunk costs. Yes, you returned a used phone and they have to sale it refurbished now. However, at this point they are getting no revenue from you. They want you to buy a phone (Apple) and data plan (AT&T). Just because a customer returns a product, you don't just throw in the towel and close down your business. That transaction is over, and you move on.

Um...use YOUR brain.

Why would AT&T and Apple allow you to return and phone and then buy another at no extra cost to you.

You essentially bought two phones, returned one USED, but only paid for one phone. Apple and AT&T can no longer sell that phone as New, hence they lose money.

Not hard. Use your brain.

 

[beamer8912]

Amen...to a point. I could care less about color but the phone portion of your argument I agree with. Damnnnn straight

Then exchange your phone at an Apple store. They'd be happy to provide you with a better functioning phone, like for like of course.

 

[beamer8912]

Take a simple business course, or google sunk costs. Yes, you returned a used phone and they have to sale it refurbished now. However, at this point they are getting no revenue from you. They want you to buy a phone (Apple) and data plan (AT&T). Just because a customer returns a product, you don't just throw in the towel and close down your business. That transaction is over, and you move on.

Wrong. Try again.

You're assuming the customer is returning the product regardless. You wouldn't be returning the product if there wasn't a white phone. If you would return the product, even if there wasn't a white iphone, then you don't fall into the category of returning the product just to get the white iphone, because you sincerely don't want an iphone.

Simply put, there are very few, if any, posters here who wouldn't give apple business if there wasn't a white iphone. Your situation assumes that if they don't get a white iphone, apple doesn't get any business...which is wrong. I bet most all posters here would stick with a black iphone if the white iphone was somehow mysteriously "canceled".

You see the flaw in your logic?

 

[zaydaboss]

Im considering this cause i have a feeling that they will fix the hardware issue with out saying it and fixing it with the newer batches. I'm having yellow pics so im taking it back for a refund and using my 3gs till the white one comes out. What any of you think of me does not concern me.

 

[iphone3gss]

The reason the customer returns the phone doesn't matter. What other products you have or will launch doesn't matter. They returned the phone and got their money back. Apple and AT&T will want your business. The previous transaction is done. This is first year business school stuff. Sorry, you are not understanding the concept that the previous transaction is done.

Wrong. Try again.

You're assuming the customer is returning the product regardless. You wouldn't be returning the product if there wasn't a white phone. If you would return the product, even if there wasn't a white iphone, then you don't fall into the category of returning the product just to get the white iphone, because you sincerely don't want an iphone.

Simply put, there are very few, if any, posters here who wouldn't give apple business if there wasn't a white iphone. Your situation assumes that if they don't get a white iphone, apple doesn't get any business...which is wrong. I bet most all posters here would stick with a black iphone if the white iphone was somehow mysteriously "canceled".

You see the flaw in your logic?

 

[beamer8912]

The reason the customer returns the phone doesn't matter. What other products you have or will launch doesn't matter. They returned the phone and got their money back. Apple and AT&T will want your business. The previous transaction is done. This is first year business school stuff. Sorry, you are not understanding the concept that the previous transaction is done.

Why is the previous transaction done? What reason does the person have to return the phone? You're missing the first critical step.

That answer does matter, as it determines whether most people fit into that niche or not.

You can synthesize any situation you'd like, but until you recognize the whole picture you won't understand whats going on.

Let me try to explain this as clearly as possible.

You have a consumer who has purchased a black iphone 4. They would like a white iphone 4, but apple will not allow them to do a simple exchange.

Here is where the first mental jump occurs. Two scenarios can play out:

1. Apple doesn't do anything to prevent returns and rebuys.
2. Apple creates a policy preventing returns and rebuys.

What does the customer do in each scenario. I think we can agree in the 1st one, that the customer will return and rebuy. What what about the 2nd? The customer is CLEARLY happy with the iPhone 4 in general, since they want to purchase one (just in white, not black). So either way THEY WILL END UP WITH AN IPHONE 4. If Apple prevents them from rebuying, I guarantee most people here would sit tight with their black iphone. They would not return the black iphone and get a different brand. They would stick with apple, and accept the black iphone and not the white one.

The 2nd scenario is the one we're concerned with. Your statement is that if Apple does this they will not get any business because they will effectively have not sold the phone and thus made no profit off you.

My argument is that the 2nd scenario will not matter because the majority of people thinking about rebuying, will not give up on the iphone 4 entirely. If they can not find a way to get a white one, they will give up and hold onto their black one. Thus Apple will STILL HAVE MADE A SALE on the black iphone they still have.

This is about as clear as I can make it. If you cannot understand this, I don't know how to make it any clearer. This is a huge flaw in your argument.

I must say, other than this flaw, your argument is correct. If someone were to return a phone, Apple would want them to purchase another. However, given the choice (Apple's choice), between allowing the customer to return the phone and get another one, or forcing them to keep their original purchase....Apple would do the latter as it nets them more money. And thus, because the customer is happy with the phone (just not the color), the customer would keep the original phone and Apple would maintain its profit.

 

[texasipod]

I follow gentry's line of thinking. Was gonna keep my black 4, until it didn't work. Now I'll wait for the white.

 

[cgentry]

It doesn't take an Apple employee to see that there's an antenna issue. I touch the antenna, I lose service. There's your confirmation. Unless you buy that BS Apple has put out. I'll post a picture of my business card tomorrow morning. It has my name and a pretty apple right next to it. The Apple is available in many colors. Which would you prefer?

I'm not taking advantage of my employer. I'm returning a phone that doesn't work and getting a new one. That's it. Whichever route I want to go about it is my business. I'm not hurting Apple. Like I said, Apple will be just fine financially. Promise.

Interesting. So you've confirmed there is actually an antenna problem, not just a loss in signal. All we need is proof your an Apple employee and we're set. You won't have any qualms showing proof will you? We should get Arn in here so he can break the story.

Yes, again, you are entitled to a phone that works. However, as an employee of Apple you should know the "refurb" units are in BETTER condition then most new units. New units undergo minimal testing, where as refurbs under go vigorous testing. As an Apple employee shouldn't you know things like this?

At this point we might just start seeing actual refurbs. For the first couple weeks there were no "refurbs" as no phones had been returned. They were all new phones, just not boxed. Confirmed from other Apple employees.

Why would you take advantage of the company you work for? You know that is not what the return policy is meant for. You know Apple can exchange (like for like) your phone for a working phone, and you know Apple doesn't do color swaps.

Plain and simple, as an employee of Apple you know better than most that you're scamming the system, yet you choose to do it anyway.

 

[beamer8912]

It doesn't take an Apple employee to see that there's an antenna issue. I touch the antenna, I lose service. There's your confirmation. Unless you buy that BS Apple has put out. I'll post a picture of my business card tomorrow morning. It has my name and a pretty apple right next to it. The Apple is available in many colors. Which would you prefer?

I'm not taking advantage of my employer. I'm returning a phone that doesn't work and getting a new one. That's it. Whichever route I want to go about it is my business. I'm not hurting Apple. Like I said, Apple will be just fine financially. Promise.

Oh, but it'd be so nice to get official confirmation. A dark green please. Someone should Arn know an Apple Employee confirmed the antenna is flawed.

Again, you can exchange your phone at any Apple store. I believe another poster confirmed they are still using new units for refurbs. So you have nothing to worry about.

No one questioned Apple's financial situation. I'm sure they will be. No one here was trying to make that point. Simply because Apple could take a hit doesn't mean they should have to.

But hiding your swap under the antenna issue makes you no better than those who are returning purely to get the white iphone. Plain and simple, Apple provides a warranty for people in your situation, and they're prepared to offer you a like for like exchange at no extra cost.

Your intentions are rather transparent. If it were really the antenna issue that were bothering you, you would do a regular exchange. But you bought the black iPhone on impulse, and now what the white one, so you're abusing a loophole Apple so kindly provided you to beat the system and swap the phones at no cost of your own.

edit: Actually do you have any other proof than a business card? It's pretty easy to get a business card from someone. I also don't know what the official Apple business card looks like. To be honest it doesn't really matter that you work for Apple or not. It isn't very pertinent to our conversation. Unless of course you can confirm what Apple is going to do about black/white exchanges (if anything at all), and perhaps when the white iphone will be released

edit2:

Here is a thread demonstrating a poster who exchanged his iPhone, and now has his signal issue resolved. See, just exchange it at an Apple store and you'll be fine. You won't get your coveted White iPhone, but your phone will work. No need to return and rebuy. Now then, suggesting the necessity to return and rebuy would indicate your primary intentions are to get the white iphone. I say that because if your intentions were to resolve your signal issue, you would simply exchange it like for like at an Apple store like the poster in that thread.

 

[iphone3gss]

Apple stated they would take returns on all iPhone 4's for 30 days, because of the reception problem. The customer returns the phone, and gets their money back. The transaction is complete, because the customer has their money and Apple has their phone.

Remember, they sold 1.7 million phones right away. There are usually about 3,000 active users in the iPhone area of this forum. Only a small percentage of that 3,000 are considering returning for a white phone. There is probably an even smaller percentage of the remaining iPhone customers that will return, because they may be unaware of the 30 day, no restocking fee return policy in place. Apple will not waste their time trying to put a policy in place to restrict what only a few people are going to do.

Why is the previous transaction done? What reason does the person have to return the phone? You're missing the first critical step.

That answer does matter, as it determines whether most people fit into that niche or not.

You can synthesize any situation you'd like, but until you recognize the whole picture you won't understand whats going on.

Let me try to explain this as clearly as possible.

You have a consumer who has purchased a black iphone 4. They would like a white iphone 4, but apple will not allow them to do a simple exchange.

Here is where the first mental jump occurs. Two scenarios can play out:

1. Apple doesn't do anything to prevent returns and rebuys.
2. Apple creates a policy preventing returns and rebuys.

What does the customer do in each scenario. I think we can agree in the 1st one, that the customer will return and rebuy. What what about the 2nd? The customer is CLEARLY happy with the iPhone 4 in general, since they want to purchase one (just in white, not black). So either way THEY WILL END UP WITH AN IPHONE 4. If Apple prevents them from rebuying, I guarantee most people here would sit tight with their black iphone. They would not return the black iphone and get a different brand. They would stick with apple, and accept the black iphone and not the white one.

The 2nd scenario is the one we're concerned with. Your statement is that if Apple does this they will not get any business because they will effectively have not sold the phone and thus made no profit off you.

My argument is that the 2nd scenario will not matter because the majority of people thinking about rebuying, will not give up on the iphone 4 entirely. If they can not find a way to get a white one, they will give up and hold onto their black one. Thus Apple will STILL HAVE MADE A SALE on the black iphone they still have.

This is about as clear as I can make it. If you cannot understand this, I don't know how to make it any clearer. This is a huge flaw in your argument.

I must say, other than this flaw, your argument is correct. If someone were to return a phone, Apple would want them to purchase another. However, given the choice (Apple's choice), between allowing the customer to return the phone and get another one, or forcing them to keep their original purchase....Apple would do the latter as it nets them more money. And thus, because the customer is happy with the phone (just not the color), the customer would keep the original phone and Apple would maintain its profit.

 

[beamer8912]

Apple stated they would take returns on all iPhone 4's for 30 days, because of the reception problem. The customer returns the phone, and gets their money back. The transaction is complete, because the customer has their money and Apple has their phone.

I don't know what to say. I can't state this any clearer. You NEED to state WHY the customer returned the phone. If its the antenna issue, they're not going to buy another phone. If its because they want white, well, you just proved my point.

So the customer was unhappy with their phone because of the antenna issue. Check. Why would the customer then buy an iPhone? They just returned one because they were unhappy with it. If they're truly unhappy with it, they're not going to buy another one, white iphone or not.

If they liked the iPhone and just wanted a properly functioning iPhone, they would have exchanged it at an Apple store, like for like. If a person has a malfunctioning phone and wants a functioning phone they'll exchange it at Apple under warranty. They WILL NOT return and rebuy.

Remember, they sold 1.7 million phones right away. There are usually about 3,000 active users in the iPhone area of this forum. Only a small percentage of that 3,000 are considering returning for a white phone. There is probably an even smaller percentage of the remaining iPhone customers that will return, because they may be unaware of the 30 day, no restocking fee return policy in place. Apple will not waste their time trying to put a policy in place to restrict what only a few people are going to do.

Statistics, fun.

So about 1/3 are going to exchange based on the poll. Based on the forum (3000), that's almost 1000 people. Apple gets $600 a phone, either full price or by the subsidy AT&T pays Apple. That's $600,000 FROM JUST THIS FORUM!

You believe Apple won't make a policy. I believe they will. Only time will tell.

 

[iphone3gss]

*sigh* I give up. You aren't getting it. The customer can return the phone and buy another. You're making too many assumptions when you say that if they return for the antenna issue that they won't buy another. Anyways, my wife will enjoy her white iPhone soon that we'll get with the money from taking back the black one. Also, we're both enjoying our free bumpers from Apple. I bet you didn't think you could get a free bumper either.

I don't know what to say. I can't state this any clearer. You NEED to state WHY the customer returned the phone. If its the antenna issue, they're not going to buy another phone. If its because they want white, well, you just proved my point.

So the customer was unhappy with their phone because of the antenna issue. Check. Why would the customer then buy an iPhone? They just returned one because they were unhappy with it. If they're truly unhappy with it, they're not going to buy another one, white iphone or not.

If they liked the iPhone and just wanted a properly functioning iPhone, they would have exchanged it at an Apple store, like for like. If a person has a malfunctioning phone and wants a functioning phone they'll exchange it at Apple under warranty. They WILL NOT return and rebuy.



Statistics, fun.

So about 1/3 are going to exchange based on the poll. Based on the forum (3000), that's almost 1000 people. Apple gets $600 a phone, either full price or by the subsidy AT&T pays Apple. That's $600,000 FROM JUST THIS FORUM!

You believe Apple won't make a policy. I believe they will. Only time will tell.

 

[beamer8912]

*sigh* I give up. You aren't getting it. The customer can return the phone and buy another. You're making too many assumptions when you say that if they return for the antenna issue that they won't buy another. Anyways, my wife will enjoy her white iPhone soon that we'll get with the money from taking back the black one. Also, we're both enjoying our free bumpers from Apple. I bet you didn't think you could get a free bumper either.

Answer me this one question. Why did the customer return the phone?

You've repeatedly ignored the question. Try answering it this time.

I have a feeling you do understand my point, but you simply refuse to acknowledge it. Thus leaving one explanation, you know you're wrong.

 

[iphone3gss]

For any reason that the customer isn't satisfied. Here is a snippet from Apple's press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02appleletter.html).

As a reminder, if you are not fully satisfied, you can return your undamaged iPhone to any Apple Retail Store or the online Apple Store within 30 days of purchase for a full refund.

If someone isn't satisfied with the black, that is enough to return it. It doesn't matter why they aren't satisfied (cause they think white will look cooler, or the proximity sensor isn't working right). I think you may not have read their public statement on this close enough. They have left it open-ended. Nowhere in the statement does it mention a restriction of reasons why you might not be satisfied. Nor does it mention a restriction on becoming a customer again in the future (buying the same phone again, difference capacity, or different color).

Answer me this one question. Why did the customer return the phone?

You've repeatedly ignored the question. Try answering it this time.

I have a feeling you do understand my point, but you simply refuse to acknowledge it. Thus leaving one explanation, you know you're wrong.

 

[Knowimagination]

They have left it open-ended. Nowhere in the statement does it mention a restriction of reasons why you might not be satisfied.

Couldn't this open ended statement also work for apple? With it being open ended they still have the final say it what gets returned.

I am honestly surprised that this topic has gone 14 pages on speculation. Can we finally let it die until the inevitable "I told you so's" begin?

 

[Domino8282]

Wow you guys are both stubborn.

My 2 cents:

- This is capitalism. We aren't judged on the reasons for returning products. There is no moral accountability here.

- If you want a white iPhone, you'll have that opportunity regardless of who returns and who doesn't.

- Whether or not people are taking advantage of loopholes is irrelevant. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are no "loopholes," because calling it a loophole implies that Apple didn't anticipate that people might use the return this way. They're not dumb.

- Companies like Apple plan for that sort of thing. In fact, there's probably some poor analyst at Apple that sat there and calculated out the percentage of buyers likely to return and repurchase a white phone.

- The consumer can't "take advantage" of a company like Apple in the way you are describing. As long as the protocol exists for doing it legally according to company policy, then the company has planned for it, and the motives of the consumer are irrelevant.

This is just my opinion, but trying to paint the consumer as the bad guy or morally irresponsible is silly and is based in self-righteousness tinged with jealousy. It's the whole, "I chose to suffer and delay gratification, how dare you not suffer with me?" thing...

 

[PUCCY]

Wow you guys are both stubborn.

My 2 cents:

- This is capitalism. We aren't judged on the reasons for returning products. There is no moral accountability here.

- If you want a white iPhone, you'll have that opportunity regardless of who returns and who doesn't.

- Whether or not people are taking advantage of loopholes is irrelevant. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are no "loopholes," because calling it a loophole implies that Apple didn't anticipate that people might use the return this way. They're not dumb.

- Companies like Apple plan for that sort of thing. In fact, there's probably some poor analyst at Apple that sat there and calculated out the percentage of buyers likely to return and repurchase a white phone.

- The consumer can't "take advantage" of a company like Apple in the way you are describing. As long as the protocol exists for doing it legally according to company policy, then the company has planned for it, and the motives of the consumer are irrelevant.

This is just my opinion, but trying to paint the consumer as the bad guy or morally irresponsible is silly and is based in self-righteousness tinged with jealousy. It's the whole, "I chose to suffer and delay gratification, how dare you not suffer with me?" thing...

WELL SAID!

 

[iphone3gss]

+1

well Said!

 

[PUCCY]

+1

no i agree with what you said too!!!

 

[Nrwrit3r]

Does it now seem possible also that the new white iphone would have the hardware fix? (According to gizmodo from the other thread)

 

[thebassoonist]

This thread reminds me of Mischel's marshmallow experiment.

Some of us can wait for two marshmallows or the white iPhone.

Others of us can't.

I'm only kidding.

But it wouldn't surprise me if one could only exchange one's iPhone for an identical one. That would just make sense, especially if (unfortunately for me) the white iPhones are flying off the shelf.