Riots in the UK

rowley said:
True, it does need debating why, and what can be done.

But for now, it's about prevention of another incident, and if that involves more police, armed or not with rubber bullets or tasers, then so be it. Army? Why not, they are employed to protect british interests.
There has been talks of water cannons with dye to identify rioters for later arrest, good. People who say
"that might tag innocent people", why would innocent people be there, innocent people are at home.
These people do not respect authority, but they would not risk conviction by dye tagging, or their lives over a TV? No.

The streets are not safe at the moment for the general public, and thats not good. Order needs to be returned, it cannot be left to continue.
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This is a good argument IMO. Innocent people that by any chance wonder around the streets, if they are innocent at all they go towards a police barrier and ask for protection, others stay at home. People that get arrested if innocent have nothing to hide and if the police decides to search them, let them.
 
Dagless said:
From a friend,
"The most poverty stricken areas in the UK, the ones most adversely affected by loss of EMA, by unemployment etc... are not on fire tonight."

Nothing to say but to call them morons.
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Why? because they've not set their own homes on fire? :rolleyes:

firestarter said:
I'd debate with you - but frankly you're part of the problem, and I don't really think you have anything interesting to say.
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Because death threats are more "interesting"? They seem to be all anyone else is coming up with.


To be clear I find this all deeply terrifying, I have family in those areas that I've not heard from. What I find more terrifying is how everyone's cheering along such totalitarian responses. Please just let the police do their jobs and just hope that this is quelled with a few people hurt as possible.

No one condones or encourages what is being done here, the only differing view is how to respond to it.
 
Mord said:
This is all incredibly worrying and what concerns me is the focus on outright condemnation. This is wrong, we all know that but making statements that make out like these rioters are very naughty kids and should be scolding are essentially valueless.

What worries me about these riots is that they're a symptom of a very sick society, something has to be incredibly wrong for this to happen. Giving the few kids they'll pick up a slap on the wrist and a few years in lockup won't fix that, it won't fix anything at all. It'll just ruin a few kids lives for being carried away with it all.
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We need to be extremely smart and pragmatic about addressing the causes of social unrest - that much is true. But underlying social issues cannot be a reason for criminality, and where criminality happens the legal system needs to deal with it decisively. Looters can't just be allowed to get off scott free - part of dealing with underlying issues of lack-of-responsibility is making people face the consequences of their actions.

Mord said:
firestarter said:
I'd debate with you - but frankly you're part of the problem, and I don't really think you have anything interesting to say.
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Because death threats are more "interesting"? They seem to be all anyone else is coming up with.
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Peterko's position is deeply suspect. He both condones the rioting and as an anarchist he has no interest in building solutions to societal problems based on our democratic process. This sort of viewpoint is so extremely distant from an useful and pragmatic response to these problems that I believe it's completely pointless engaging with him.

Edit: I withdraw my accusation that Peterko explicitly condones the action. He stated that he did not condemn it.

No, Mord - death threats aren't interesting and don't forward the debate either. I wouldn't support that sort of action.

To be clear I find this all deeply terrifying, I have family in those areas that I've not heard from. What I find more terrifying is how everyone's cheering along such totalitarian responses. Please just let the police do their jobs and just hope that this is quelled with a few people hurt as possible.
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True

No one condones or encourages what is being done here, the only differing view is how to respond to it.
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No one?

Edit: I withdraw my accusation that Peterko explicitly condones the action. He stated that he did not condemn it.
 
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This just in on Twitter from Larry the Cat Number10cat
"Cameron March 2011: Police budgets to be cut by 20%; Cameron August 2011: Police on streets of London tonight to be increased by 167%"
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Explain that to us Dave.
 
Peterkro said:
You appear to have a better grasp of whats going on than many people in the UK,the peaceful protest outside Tottenham police station kicked off when the police badly beat a sixteen year old girl in front of hundreds of witness's.

...
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Photo? Did she attack first? Stones, placard...? How badly is badly?

arkitect said:
This just in on Twitter from Larry the Cat Number10cat


Explain that to us Dave.
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Cancelled leave and events, longer shifts....

As for cuts; around 10 police outside Debenhams in Clapham and over 100 late night shopping, increase police by 100% or cut by 20%, what difference?

Cheers,
OW
 
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firestarter said:
Peterko's position is deeply suspect. He both condones the rioting and as an anarchist he has no interest in building solutions to societal problems based on our democratic process.
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Sigh. He's not an anarchist. If you live in the UK you use and are supported by a multitude of state constructs (transport infrastructure, health systems, education, media etc). Anarchy is OK, until you need to get a prescription, catch a bus or educate your child.

Anyone who doesn't condone the riots is either being obstreperous or didn't sit an watch people's livelihoods burn.
 
firestarter said:
No one?
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Not condemning them and condoning them are two very different things. He clearly stated that he thinks these kids are going about things the wrong way and he clearly supports the type of anarchist that is helping to stop things from getting worse.

He's not the enemy.
 
rowley said:
Trolling solves nothing.
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If you think that's trolling report me.The British state has practiced it's crowd control methods in Ireland for decades and are now about to be put in to practice in England (see the use of armoured military vehicles in two parts of London last night ),as I pointed out all it achieved was to ensure the resistance to them became even stronger,instead of trying to tackle the very real grievances of people they tried to use force to control them.It didn't work and they are going down the same path here with I very much suspect the same result.So far it's been mainly kids on the streets, escalate it and everybody will be out.
 
firestarter said:
No one?
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I am not reading anything that backs up your claims.

oscillatewildly said:
Photo? Did she attack first? Stones, placard...? How badly is badly?
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Apparently there is a video at the bottom of this page

http://www.setyoufreenews.co.uk/police-beating-a-16-year-old-girl-sparked-london-riots-violence/

I do not have accesss to youtube here at work so can not confirm what this video is actually of so if it is a bogus video please say and I will remove the link.
 
oscillatewildly said:
As for cuts; around 10 police outside Debenhams in Clapham
OW
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An example of the standard of reporting from the media,nobody in the area refers to it as Debenhams it's universally known as Arding and Hobbs and it's in Clapham Junction not bleeding Clapham.
 
xUKHCx said:
I am not reading anything that backs up your claims.
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How about this?

Peterkro said:
let me be very clear I'm not joining the reactionaries by condemning those taking part
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Edit: I withdraw my accusation that Peterko explicitly condones the action. He stated that he did not condemn it.


xUKHCx said:
Apparently there is a video at the bottom of this page

http://www.setyoufreenews.co.uk/police-beating-a-16-year-old-girl-sparked-london-riots-violence/

I do not have accesss to youtube here at work so can not confirm what this video is actually of so if it is a bogus video please say and I will remove the link.
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Looks like a real video from the incident. You can't really see what's going on - but the crowd reaction seems real enough.
 
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xUKHCx said:
Apparently there is a video at the bottom of this page

http://www.setyoufreenews.co.uk/police-beating-a-16-year-old-girl-sparked-london-riots-violence/

I do not have accesss to youtube here at work so can not confirm what this video is actually of so if it is a bogus video please say and I will remove the link.
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Video doesn't show anything other than police dragging someone. Can't tell if they are male or female, or how old they are. There is a woman screaming, "it's a f.... girl" constantly, but no indication to age.
 
firestarter said:
Peterko's position is deeply suspect. He both condones the rioting and as an anarchist he has no interest in building solutions to societal problems based on our democratic process. This sort of viewpoint is so extremely distant from an useful and pragmatic response to these problems that I believe it's completely pointless engaging with him.
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For someone who obviously knows exactly zilch about anarchism,you seem to be very vocal about my views as an anarchist.I suggest you stick to discussing the issues and leave out the labelling and personal attacks.
 
Wow, the Mods are being overly generous with this thread, so that Londoners et al without PRSI privilege can participate.

Let's cool it some, please.
 
xUKHCx said:
Peterkro did not condone the actions or encourage them with that statement. Peterkro stated that he is not condemning those taking part.
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OK - I withdraw my statement that he condones the rioting. You are correct, he did not explicitly say this. I will add notes to the effect to my postings above.

He did however state that he does not condemn those taking part. I find this statement equally abhorrent.
 
I have enough of commenting on this thread.
I don't know how many of you live or work in London. It's not a nice place to live at the moment.

I want my London back.
 
xUKHCx said:
I am not reading anything that backs up your claims.



Apparently there is a video at the bottom of this page

http://www.setyoufreenews.co.uk/police-beating-a-16-year-old-girl-sparked-london-riots-violence/

I do not have accesss to youtube here at work so can not confirm what this video is actually of so if it is a bogus video please say and I will remove the link.
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Can't make out much other than a woman shouting - using an old PowerBook :eek:

Peterkro said:
An example of the standard of reporting from the media,nobody in the area refers to it as Debenhams it's universally known as Arding and Hobbs and it's in Clapham Junction not bleeding Clapham.
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As it was under Allders; I used Debenhams because it was prominent in the night footage. The Clapham is me again; if visiting friends I'll use Clapham to include Junction and Common, same with Tooting - Bec and Broadway, and so on.

Cheers,
OW
 
Hearing rumours Lewisham is kicking off. Don't know how bad, if at all. Seems many shops are closing up now.
 
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