Russia's Anti-Monopoly Watchdog Says Apple Abused Dominant App Store Position

[Geodextro]

Apple stops you from going to Android? That's new to me. Apple owns the platform, so they own what rules happen on the platform. They are not the only platform. Don't like how things work within the platform, including the Appstore, go to the majority holder, Android.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? The retail metaphor doesn’t hold because stores don’t act as gatekeepers to customers once they shop at a store (there is generally free movement for any person at any given point in time).


The whole point is that once a company reaches a certain size and market share their behaviors (if anti-competitive) can lead to deteriorating market conditions which is bad economically.

Most people/governments around the world have agreed that it is best to prevent these behaviors so that competition can continue to drive innovation/creation.

 

[DummyFool]

How exactly is this is good thing?

Yet another example on MR of hoping Apple burns when it will directly affect you.

I want the liberty to run any app i want, the same liberty i have on MacOS.

 

[robertcoogan]

100%?

 

[Geodextro]

just another case of people who want to use apple's platform, but feel it is their right to make demands as to how it should work and what should be included in it.

It’s our right as citizens of democratic countries - we decide the rules of fair business practices, we don’t let them decide for themselves.

 

[Geodextro]

False.

If I want an Apple-created App, I have to go to Apple's store. Just like if I want a Great Value product, I have to go to Walmart.

If I want a bag of Doritos, I can go to Walmart. Or I can go to Target. I have choices.

If I want Spotify, I can go to Apple's store. Or I can go to Android. I have choices.

Apple isn't preventing me from shopping elsewhere for apps they don't create.

Did anyone suggest Apple has to release their apps for other platforms? I don’t think so. You’re attacking straw men.

 

[citysnaps]

Hating on the most influential and powerful company? Groundbreaking.

But seriously, it’s amazing what jealousy will get people to say and do. They want to decide how Apple spends its money and how much they “deserve”, how much products should cost, which political causes Apple should support (and you can bet they’ll all be left of center), and so on.

Needless to say, most if not all of them have not run large companies (and neither have I).

Excellent assessment. And, for many people, ragging on a super successful company or person is the only way they can feel good about themselves.

 

[coldwaves]

About more than a decade ago, Microsoft faced similar situation when Internet Explorer bundled in Windows is alleged to be anti-competitive. Microsoft's argument is basically that IE is an integral part of the operating system and bundling it is not an anti-competitive practice. The debate about internet neutrality also seems to be about issues with similar spirit. It is not new that companies controlling the platform face this sort of legal challenges.

I think we should be careful in using analogy to justify a point of view. Some argues that if Walmart can set what it sells at what price in its store, why shouldn't apple be able to dictate its store policy? Well, if Apple can set its store policy, why shouldn't Comcast be able to dictate what website users can access at what speed using its service? Laws and polices regulating monopoly is complicated and using analogy to prove the point ignores all the nuances.

 

[citysnaps]

...Russian Federal Anti-Monopoly Service...

Now that's a real knee-slapper!

 

[3xBoom]

Klowns...

 

[Spikeboss]

Agreed.

 

[whyamihere]

Did anyone suggest Apple has to release their apps for other platforms? I don’t think so. You’re attacking straw men.

You missed the point.

You said: "When you decide to shop at Walmart they don’t prevent you from from shopping elsewhere though, Apple does"

So I gave evidence, and said: "If I want Spotify, I can go to Apple's store. Or I can go to Android. I have choices. Apple isn't preventing me from shopping elsewhere for apps they don't create."

Lol, I think the "straw men" here is you ignoring I proved you wrong

 

[maine82]

About more than a decade ago, Microsoft faced similar situation when Internet Explorer bundled in Windows is alleged to be anti-competitive. Microsoft's argument is basically that IE is an integral part of the operating system and bundling it is not an anti-competitive practice. The debate about internet neutrality also seems to be about issues with similar spirit. It is not new that companies controlling the platform face this sort of legal challenges.

I think we should be careful in using analogy to justify a point of view. Some argues that if Walmart can set what it sells at what price in its store, why shouldn't apple be able to dictate its store policy? Well, if Apple can set its store policy, why shouldn't Comcast be able to dictate what website users can access at what speed using its service? Laws and polices regulating monopoly is complicated and using analogy to prove the point ignores all the nuances.

That holds some water except what if the companies you listed started off with these same rules when there was fierce competition, the same rules that most critics claimed would be their downfall, but yet that company ended up becoming successful over the years and kept the same exact rules that they started off with. I'm sorry I think that's the entire way free market is truly set to work.

 

[NMBob]

What if Apple started selling Android apps that passed the same [dubious] testing standards of Apple apps?

 

[notabadname]

If you don’t want to have your product at Sam’s Club, you don’t have to, and you can just make it available at Costco. But if you get your product offered in either of those ‘storefronts”, you will find yourself agreeing to their terms and pricing structure. If you don’t like their terms, you can choose not to sell through that venue. Selling your product in Apple’s storefront is (and should be) no different. If you don’t like the store’s rules, then take your software somewhere else, such as Android‘s space. Just because so many people like to shop at Costco, or Apple, doesn’t mean they should loose the control of their curated sales space.

 

[Geodextro]

You missed the point.

You said: "When you decide to shop at Walmart they don’t prevent you from from shopping elsewhere though, Apple does"

So I gave evidence, and said: "If I want Spotify, I can go to Apple's store. Or I can go to Android. I have choices. Apple isn't preventing me from shopping elsewhere for apps they don't create."

Lol, I think the "straw men" here is you ignoring I proved you wrong

And if you want to use GeForce now? Microsoft Xcloud? (Parental control apps in this case) You can’t because they compete with Apple Services and Apple won’t allow them on the App Store. Just because one thing is available on two platforms doesn’t absolve Apple of being anticompetitive, I’m really not sure the point you are going for there.

The idea is that Apple acts as gatekeeper to a large chunk of the population - Apple users have to interact with Apple services.

This is different than retail where there is free movement at any given time (I can shop target one day, Walmart the next). Make no mistake though, Walmart has also been through antitrust lawsuits for anticompetitive behaviors on their part.

 

[genovelle]

Apple's iOS App Store has NO competition !

Walmart has LOTS of competition !!

At a MIN, at least here in the States, the U.S. Gov't should appoint an App Store "Tsar" who has oversight of a 2nd App Store, where Users can safely download apps.

Select apps that are approved by Apple + select others that pass a rigorous hands-on test !

ALL apps in this 2nd App Store must adhere to the primary principal of "Collects NO User Data" !

If found violating that primary principal, Banned for Life !

And, App Devs must pay $40 for each app submittal ! ... to cover testing costs !

That will ALSO cut down on the number of crap apps !
[automerge]1597083599[/automerge]


Good luck with that !

Apple has a monopoly as much as Sony or Microsoft on their devices. Microsoft was unique in that all PCs were forced to use their software when they were not even making hardware. The Play store is the competition and we Apple people prefer Apple’s methods because know what happens when they let the wall down.

 

[Analog Kid]

Are you being intentionally obtuse? The retail metaphor doesn’t hold because stores don’t act as gatekeepers to customers once they shop at a store (there is generally free movement for any person at any given point in time).


The whole point is that once a company reaches a certain size and market share their behaviors (if anti-competitive) can lead to deteriorating market conditions which is bad economically.

Most people/governments around the world have agreed that it is best to prevent these behaviors so that competition can continue to drive innovation/creation.

And Apple still has, and will likely always have, a minority market share of smartphone ecosystems.

As long as that’s true then I want there to exist an ecosystem like Apple’s.

It’s our right as citizens of democratic countries - we decide the rules of fair business practices, we don’t let them decide for themselves.

Citizens of capitalist countries, however, generally frown upon letting governments interfere with business practices in individual companies unless those companies start to have a macroeconomic impact. I think iOS market share is something south of 15%? That’s not a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Naraxus]

"If I want Spotify, I can go to Apple's store. Or I can go to Android. I have choices. Apple isn't preventing me from shopping elsewhere for apps they don't create."

That whole "go to Android" argument doesn't fly. You're comparing an app store with an operating system.

If I want an app on Android there are a number of app stores I can go to.

If I want an app on iOS there is only ONE place I can get it.

Apple IS preventing me from shopping elsewhere.

 

[notabadname]

The idea is that Apple acts as gatekeeper to a large chunk of the population - Apple users have to interact with Apple services.

This is different than retail where there is free movement at any given time (I can shop target one day, Walmart the next). Make no mistake though, Walmart has also been through antitrust lawsuits for anticompetitive behaviors on their part.

Interesting. So you Don’t think Target is acting as a gatekeeper when you Enter in their store and for all transactions ?

 

[Cesar Battistini]

That is what makes the iPhone the iPhone.

If you want a **** show with 5 stores, no consistent updates or security checks. BUY an ANDROID.

I can't.

 

[Analog Kid]

And if you want to use GeForce now? Microsoft Xcloud? (Parental control apps in this case) You can’t because they compete with Apple Services and Apple won’t allow them on the App Store. Just because one thing is available on two platforms doesn’t absolve Apple of being anticompetitive, I’m really not sure the point you are going for there.

The idea is that Apple acts as gatekeeper to a large chunk of the population - Apple users have to interact with Apple services.

This is different than retail where there is free movement at any given time (I can shop target one day, Walmart the next). Make no mistake though, Walmart has also been through antitrust lawsuits for anticompetitive behaviors on their part.

Apple acts as a gatekeeper for the small fraction of the population that has opted into the Apple ecosystem. The App Store is part of that ecosystem. For me, it’s a vital part of that ecosystem and removing it would devalue the overall Apple experience.

 

[macsrcool1234]

Am I the only one seeing lot of anti-Apple sentiment recently?

they bring it on themselves

 

[Geodextro]

And Apple still has, and will likely always have, a minority market share of smartphone ecosystems.

As long as that’s true then I want there to exist an ecosystem like Apple’s.

Citizens of capitalist countries, however, generally frown upon letting governments interfere with business practices in individual companies unless those companies start to have a macroeconomic impact. I think iOS market share is something south of 15%? That’s not a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination.

I think that’s fair - the goal of antitrust law is to promote positive economic behaviors so it’s a fair line of attack to say this will not have a positive impact (I personally do think a small amount of legislation could improve things a bit, not removing the AppStore obviously but maybe opening iOS to official sideloading).

Though not super important I’ll note that a company doesn’t need to have a majority or even plurality of market share to be guilty of engaging in anti competitive behaviors.

 

[Geodextro]

Interesting. So you Don’t think Target is acting as a gatekeeper when you Enter in their store and for all transactions ?

No they aren’t - because there is no cost associated with leaving the store and going down the street.

These laws take user behavior into account and in practice you cannot switch between platforms every day of the week... you can with retail.

 

[falainber]

Yeah... Russia would seem to know all about monopolies. Since their entire judicial system is a farce and one party/one man rule is the name of the game there. Consumers who buy at Walmart also have to buy what Walmart offers. Is that the same kind of monopoly? There's this giant selling phone platform (largest in the world I hear) called Android and you, like most people in the world, can buy from there just as a Walmart shopper can shop at Food Co. if you are unhappy with what Walmart offers.

That's what American politicians want you to believe and it's a lie. Six political parties are represented in Russian parliament. That's 3x more than in US.