Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Parental control software requires low level hooks into the OS. This not only compromises the phone but also every single app that runs on it. The only way this would work would be to let users set a flag on the phone. It comes with the flag set to clean. That only allows Apple signed software. The user get to flip it to Compromised. When it is, the phone can run side loaded software. At the same time, every app on the phone has the ability to check to see if the phone is Compromised. If it is, the app has the right to not load or execute. Once a phone is Compromised, it can never be set back to Clean, even with a factory reset.

My concern is, a bad app could cause the phone to report Clean when it is in fact contaminated. I would never write any secure software for such a platform. If it allows side loads, no banking software, no credit card transactions.

Honestly, if Apple is forced to do this and degrade their OS to Android levels, I will keep using an iPhone, but I will never run or write an app again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoVaRo
The retail comparison keeps coming up in these threads and it really doesn't work.

If Walmart decides not to stock a product, you can go to Target instead. If one retailer implements draconian rules on what they will sell or how much they will charge, people will go elsewhere, and there is effectively zero cost to the consumer for doing so. This implicit competition keeps the retailers honest to the benefit of consumers.

Apple allows only one retailer to exist - themselves. They can decide what to sell just like Walmart does, but there is no competition to provide an alternative. Developers and customers can only trust/hope that Apple does the right thing, since they have no power to influence them by going elsewhere.

"But what about Android?" There is a huge difference between changing phone ecosystem and throwing away an entire library of apps vs walking into the retailer next door. Apple has a captive audience with a high barrier to switching to an alternative, which retailers don't have. That is exactly the problem.
The difference is, if you purchase a bag of chips at Target, you don't contaminate every single thing in your house and every thing that enters your house. You get a bag of chips.

Bad unsigned software can mess with the baseband of the phone; The level that sits below the OS. This lets it own every process on the phone. If you own the baseband, you can prevent the phone from being restored to factory while making it look like it is. You can copy every byte that the phone sends or receives, including encrypted traffic. You can even make the phone repeatedly dial 911, then hang up and prevent the phone from shutting down.

Running unsigned software on a laptop is bad. Running it on a cellphone is borderline criminal.
 
The security excuse is pure marketing, they love to fool people that has no clue.
In contrary this would mean, that current macOS is not secure at all, and everybody should stop using macOS devices right now.

I mean, i have nothing against a msg saying “Hey there, you got this app from the internet, take care, and make sure you got it from a trusted site!“, but the AppStore lock-in is just wrong and anticompetitive. macOS is currently doing it right, but without antitrust it will end locked like iOS. The next Apple macOS ARM platform is perfect to achieve this goal, they will soon introduce a locked down macOS, because it’s already slowly transitioning to this direction with signed apps, kexts, etc. A subtle “security related” change here and there with every new macOS, so people don’t notice when the handcuffs clicks. And suddenly you will just be able to install Mac Apps only from AppStore, Apple gets their x%, owns a device kill switch, and decides what you‘re allowed to use.

Ohhh and of course all JUST for security reasons.
Look Ma, they care for us!

MacOS is not as secure as iOS.
 
False.

If I want an Apple-created App, I have to go to Apple's store. Just like if I want a Great Value product, I have to go to Walmart.

If I want a bag of Doritos, I can go to Walmart. Or I can go to Target. I have choices.

If I want Spotify, I can go to Apple's store. Or I can go to Android. I have choices.

Apple isn't preventing me from shopping elsewhere for apps they don't create.
The difference is, if you buy a Ford, you can buy your car parts from Ford, or Walmart, or... But if you buy an iPhone, you can only buy your apps from Apple's store. Similarly, if you are a car part manufacturer and want to sell parts to Ford buyers, you can offer them wholesale to Ford and if you don't like Ford's terms, you can offer them to Walmart, or sell them yourself direct, or... But if you develop mobile apps and want to sell them to iPhone buyers, you can only sell them through Apple and have to follow Apple's rules. That, my friend, is the difference between a competitive market, and a monopoly.
 
Apple's iOS App Store has NO competition !

Walmart has LOTS of competition !!

At a MIN, at least here in the States, the U.S. Gov't should appoint an App Store "Tsar" who has oversight of a 2nd App Store, where Users can safely download apps.

Select apps that are approved by Apple + select others that pass a rigorous hands-on test !

ALL apps in this 2nd App Store must adhere to the primary principal of "Collects NO User Data" !

If found violating that primary principal, Banned for Life !

And, App Devs must pay $40 for each app submittal ! ... to cover testing costs !

That will ALSO cut down on the number of crap apps !
[automerge]1597083599[/automerge]


Good luck with that !
Android is the competition. Apple can do what they want... it’s their store.

Also, IOS does NOT have majorly market share.
 
Is this just the Russian government upset about Apple blocking the deliberate misuse of a a service for spying on children?

How on earth does Apple make any money for screen time anyway?

Also you can install apps on your iPhone outside the App Store. I’ve done it in the past with Apples own Seed app and my workplace has a number of apps sent out via MDM. Apple just doesn’t allow other app stores.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RalfTheDog
To people continuously using the Walmart analogy, I seriously wish the world was a simple black and white with no grey zone in between. Sadly, that is NOT the case, and monopoly does not need to have dominant market share. Quite the contrary, IF Apple is the only cell phone maker and iOS IS the only mobile operating system in the world, launching anti-trust investigation would mean nothing because nobody else will have the marketing power and capital to compete with Apple, further solidifying Apple’s monopoly. By then, even if you as customer want a choice, you will never get one. Is that a good thing? If that is a good thing, then go ahead.

To people think allowing side-loading apps compromises the device, do remember that Cellebrite exist, and they hack into iOS devices all the time and sell exploits to law enforcements. This happened before and will surely happen in the future, whether Apple like it or not. One critical security flaw can easily control ALL iOS devices without “side-loading” and hackers who owns that flaw can pretty much do whatever they want to do without user even knowing. Opening iOS does allow bad players to install malicious apps, but also opens new functionalities for good developers to enhance user experience in a way current iOS never could be. It is always a double-edge sword.

In summary, using simple analogy to understand a complicated matter doesn’t help and can easily lead to skewed conclusions. Security issue will always exist even if the iOS is closed as it is right now. Opening iOS can be good and bad and it is up to users and developers to decide which direction they want to go.
 
Parental control software requires low level hooks into the OS. This not only compromises the phone but also every single app that runs on it. The only way this would work would be to let users set a flag on the phone. It comes with the flag set to clean. That only allows Apple signed software. The user get to flip it to Compromised. When it is, the phone can run side loaded software. At the same time, every app on the phone has the ability to check to see if the phone is Compromised. If it is, the app has the right to not load or execute. Once a phone is Compromised, it can never be set back to Clean, even with a factory reset.

My concern is, a bad app could cause the phone to report Clean when it is in fact contaminated. I would never write any secure software for such a platform. If it allows side loads, no banking software, no credit card transactions.

Honestly, if Apple is forced to do this and degrade their OS to Android levels, I will keep using an iPhone, but I will never run or write an app again.
it nothing related to app or writing it.Everybody want to get their cut.. just that.. either it was sign or not it still the same. Apple itself in trouble mode askin move to arm such as wanted lucrative apps arm to run in macos arm
 
When you decide to shop at Walmart they don’t prevent you from from shopping elsewhere though, Apple does (no open Api for side loading or other app stores... unlike every other OS).

This wouldn’t be a problem if they were some small company, it is a problem though because they own not only the platform but the ACCESS to a huge chunk of people.
Fair assessment.
Would it be legal for Apple to say “fine, you can install whatever you want from wherever you want... HOWEVER we won’t follow suit regarding any issues being consequence of not using the Apple curated store”.
Pretty much like buying a Ford car at a dealership and having the choice between doing all the maintenance, tweaks and tunes directly there (which will also keep the warranty) or going to any random mechanic good or bad but the consequences of such jobs could void warranties (and enter here now certified mechanics).
 
Yep, and Walmart has a 100% share of the market for items sold in Walmart. Let's get 'em!

Agreed.

Sony has a 100% share of the market for Playstation games
Microsoft has 100% share of the market for Xbox games

I would love to create a game for Playstation or Xbox, put it on my website and have people be able to download it. But that is not possible :(
[automerge]1597116158[/automerge]
When you decide to shop at Walmart they don’t prevent you from from shopping elsewhere though, Apple does (no open Api for side loading or other app stores... unlike every other OS).

This wouldn’t be a problem if they were some small company, it is a problem though because they own not only the platform but the ACCESS to a huge chunk of people.
Does Apple prevent you from using Android? Android is the alternative here.
 
No they aren’t - because there is no cost associated with leaving the store and going down the street.

These laws take user behavior into account and in practice you cannot switch between platforms every day of the week... you can with retail.
I am sorry, are you saying I need to PAY Apple to get an Android phone? This is news to me, as I know many people that switch back and forth and don't have that "cost associated with leaving iOS"
 
  • Angry
Reactions: nickgovier
Considering Apple is under fire for anti-trust in just about every jurisdiction they operate in (including US) I think it is only a matter of time before they are forced to open the platform up in some regard. I’m with you that I hope it doesn’t degrade the experience - I think there is opportunity to enhance it personally.

This is a very scary situation. It is Apple's environment and store. I think anti-competitive stuff is going a bit too far here. Let capitalism play out. If iPhones start losing sales because of Android's open environment, things will change. I think its scary having someone other than Apple control how Apple operates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RalfTheDog
Well when the Russian court system waggles its finger at you ya know you’ve done bad.
Not that Apple cares but it’s still amusing.
[automerge]1597098526[/automerge]

It’s not? What other App Store can I shop at for my iOS products?

I love it when people have this argument. What other store can I shop for Xbox games? Playstation games? As a game developer, I wish I could create my own store on Xbox and Playstation so I don't have to pay them a hefty price either!

And physical copies do not count here because you still need to pay licensing fees with Sony and Microsoft.
 
The retail comparison keeps coming up in these threads and it really doesn't work.

If Walmart decides not to stock a product, you can go to Target instead. If one retailer implements draconian rules on what they will sell or how much they will charge, people will go elsewhere, and there is effectively zero cost to the consumer for doing so. This implicit competition keeps the retailers honest to the benefit of consumers.

Apple allows only one retailer to exist - themselves. They can decide what to sell just like Walmart does, but there is no competition to provide an alternative. Developers and customers can only trust/hope that Apple does the right thing, since they have no power to influence them by going elsewhere.

"But what about Android?" There is a huge difference between changing phone ecosystem and throwing away an entire library of apps vs walking into the retailer next door. Apple has a captive audience with a high barrier to switching to an alternative, which retailers don't have. That is exactly the problem.

If Apple decides not to offer your product, you can go to Android instead. And actually, Android has higher marketshare which will be better for you!
 
Agreed.

Sony has a 100% share of the market for Playstation games
Microsoft has 100% share of the market for Xbox games

I would love to create a game for Playstation or Xbox, put it on my website and have people be able to download it. But that is not possible :(
[automerge]1597116158[/automerge]

Does Apple prevent you from using Android? Android is the alternative here.
I am sorry, are you saying I need to PAY Apple to get an Android phone? This is news to me, as I know many people that switch back and forth and don't have that "cost associated with leaving iOS"
Then, by proxy, Microsoft under anti-trust hearing should not happen in the first place because “customers can always install another browser in their system afterwards and Microsoft does not necessarily stop users from doing so”, or Windows N would not exist in EU because “yeah, I can install whatever browser I want afterwards and I have choice”.

The fact is, Microsoft did got accused of anti-competition due to bundling IE into every single copy of Windows, and Windows N does exist for EU customers. Why Apple has to be any different or somehow can be exempt by a similar accusation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: M3gatron
Then, by proxy, Microsoft under anti-trust hearing should not happen in the first place because “customers can always install another browser in their system afterwards and Microsoft does not necessarily stop users from doing so”, or Windows N would not exist in EU because “yeah, I can install whatever browser I want afterwards and I have choice”.

The fact is, Microsoft did got accused of anti-competition due to bundling IE into every single copy of Windows, and Windows N does exist for EU customers. Why Apple has to be any different or somehow can be exempt by a similar accusation?

And IE can still be bundled in to Windows. People miss the main point of the Microsoft case:

Underlying these disputes were questions over whether Microsoft had manipulated its application programming interfaces to favor IE over third-party web browsers, Microsoft's conduct in forming restrictive licensing agreements with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), and Microsoft's intent in its course of conduct.

It's not as simple as Windows having IE by default.

Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson issued his findings of fact on November 5, 1999, which stated that Microsoft's dominance of the x86-based personal computer operating systems market constituted a monopoly, and that Microsoft had taken actions to crush threats to that monopoly, including Apple, Java, Netscape, Lotus Software, RealNetworks, Linux, and others.[5] Judgment was split in two parts. On April 3, 2000, he issued his conclusions of law, according to which Microsoft had committed monopolization, attempted monopolization, and tying in violation of Sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act.[17] Microsoft immediately appealed the decision.


I do not see Apple taking actions to crush threats to their competition. Spotify, Netflix, Steam Link and more are offered which compete with Apples Products. And there are still some family screen time apps.


More stuff for you:

Microsoft's Attempt to Dissuade Netscape from Developing Navigator as a Platform
79. Microsoft's first response to the threat posed by Navigator was an effort to persuade Netscape to structure its business such that the company would not distribute platform- level browsing software for Windows. Netscape's assent would have ensured that, for the foreseeable future, Microsoft would produce the only platform-level browsing software distributed to run on Windows. This would have eliminated the prospect that non-Microsoft browsing software could weaken the applications barrier to entry.

80. Executives at Microsoft received confirmation in early May 1995 that Netscape was developing a version of Navigator to run on Windows 95, which was due to be released in a couple of months. Microsoft's senior executives understood that if they could prevent this version of Navigator from presenting alternatives to the Internet-related APIs in Windows 95, the technologies branded as Navigator would cease to present an alternative platform to developers. Even if non-Windows versions of Navigator exposed Internet-related APIs, applications written to those APIs would not run on the platform Microsoft executives expected to enjoy the largest installed base, i.e., Windows 95. So, as long as the version of Navigator written for Windows 95 relied on Microsoft's Internet-related APIs instead of exposing its own, developing for Navigator would not mean developing cross-platform. Developers of network-centric applications thus would not be drawn to Navigator's APIs in substantial numbers. Therefore, with the encouragement and support of Gates, a group of Microsoft executives commenced a campaign in the summer of 1995 to convince Netscape to halt its development of platform-level browsing technologies for Windows 95.
 
And IE can still be bundled in to Windows. People miss the main point of the Microsoft case:

Underlying these disputes were questions over whether Microsoft had manipulated its application programming interfaces to favor IE over third-party web browsers, Microsoft's conduct in forming restrictive licensing agreements with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), and Microsoft's intent in its course of conduct.

It's not as simple as Windows having IE by default.
Then by proxy, Apple’s anti-competitive behaviour is certainly not as easy as “Apple not having major marketshare hence anti-competitive hearing is pointless”. There is going to be a whole lot behind it for Apple to damage or against competition in order to favour their own products and/or services, otherwise we would’ve been able to use Spotify from the day HomePod launched instead of being limited to Apple Music and Siri.
 
Then by proxy, Apple’s anti-competitive behaviour is certainly not as easy as “Apple not having major marketshare hence anti-competitive hearing is pointless”. There is going to be a whole lot behind it for Apple to damage or against competition in order to favour their own products and/or services, otherwise we would’ve been able to use Spotify from the day HomePod launched instead of being limited to Apple Music and Siri.

People misquote the Microsoft case severely. Did Apple try to get Spotify to stop being a music service? That is what Microsoft was doing to Netscape - trying to convince them to not develop for Windows 95. They also worked with OEMs to PREVENT Netscape from being pre-installed. They did similar stuff with Java and Lotus.

People just equate this to Windows has IE installed by default and compare it to Apple's situation. They are not comparable AT ALL.

I do not see how not having Spotify day one on an Apple product is an issue. Why doesn't Chromecast with with Safari then? You are required to get Google's own browser to use a product from Google.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RalfTheDog
People misquote the Microsoft case severely. Did Apple try to get Spotify to stop being a music service? That is what Microsoft was doing to Netscape - trying to convince them to not develop for Windows 95. They also worked with OEMs to PREVENT Netscape from being pre-installed. They did similar stuff with Java and Lotus.

People just equate this to Windows has IE installed by default and compare it to Apple's situation. They are not comparable AT ALL.

I do not see how not having Spotify day one on an Apple product is an issue. Why doesn't Chromecast with with Safari then? You are required to get Google's own browser to use a product from Google.
I see it as an issue as intentionally excluding third party music streaming service (Spotify or YouTube music) is bad for competition as developers will either have to wait and see if Apple changes mind or forced to give up iOS user base entirely, resulting iOS customers losing access to third party services. It is true that one customer can always switch to other platform. But what if the choice is not made by customer himself/herself but rather by the platform he/she is using? Is that forced choice a good thing?

I may have mis-quoted Microsoft antitrust hearing as I do not have the expertise. However, my point is do not try to simplify monopoly behaviour and equate it to marketshare.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mactendo
I see it as an issue as intentionally excluding third party music streaming service (Spotify or YouTube music) is bad for competition as developers will either have to wait and see if Apple changes mind or forced to give up iOS user base entirely, resulting iOS customers losing access to third party services. It is true that one customer can always switch to other platform. But what if the choice is not made by customer himself/herself but rather by the platform he/she is using? Is that forced choice a good thing?

I may have mis-quoted Microsoft antitrust hearing as I do not have the expertise. However, my point is do not try to simplify monopoly behaviour and equate it to marketshare.

There are way more products like the HomePod. Even better ones. The issue with the Microsoft case was their marketshare. Trying to get Netscape to stop development on Windows which had about 90% of the PC marketshare does play into the situation.
 
There are way more products like the HomePod. Even better ones. The issue with the Microsoft case was their marketshare. Trying to get Netscape to stop development on Windows which had about 90% of the PC marketshare does play into the situation.
Minority marketshare does not exclude anyone from being accused of anti-competitive behaviour. For HomePods, it’s more like the marketshare is so insignificant at that point that people’s attention is not on how apple deals with their HomePods, which seems reasonable to me.
 
I'm overjoyed to see that scrutiny is being paid to the dominant tech monopolies in the US and abroad. These companies are so extravagantly powerful that the things they could do are kinda terrifying to think about. We break up monopolies now to avoid the exceptionally worse dystopia that's possible if they get far larger. I'm all for technology and it's growth. I'm not necessarily opposed to people or corporations turning a profit. But it has be regulated and kept at a size our governments can handle. And I say that despite being very opposed to the excesses of government. To be honest? I am considered a moderate compared to others in my social group.

The complaint that Apple is the dominant app store on iOS devices is absolutely accurate as we all know. There comes a time here and there when you can unshackle your device from the closed garden approach that Apple has taken with their iOS devices, but the entire Apple/iOS experience is that walled garden aspect to it. I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read that Apple was letting iOS users choose their own browser & mail app preferences. Absolutely gobsmacked.

And in all honesty, I think Apple is one of the least toxic monopolies out there. Sure could be more reasonable about right to repair. I feel that buying devices that will brick themselves if third party repairs are rendered on them is a bad choice, but I do indulge in such devices when it comes to Apple. It's why I buy AppleCare+, but hnngh, it seems like much less of a bargain in the age of pandemic. I can't exactly make an appointment at the Apple Store and let them sort out the shipping of my device to a repair center now, can I?

Shipping.. is not a fond activity for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M3gatron
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.