Russia's Anti-Monopoly Watchdog Says Apple Abused Dominant App Store Position

[Eso]

Yep, and Walmart has a 100% share of the market for items sold in Walmart. Let's get 'em!

Um... no they don't?

Aside from their own brand, you can probably buy any product they sell from a different retailer. Imagine that - being able to buy the same product from different places that are in competition from one another...

 

[quatermass]

That's hilarious! There's a Russian anti-monopoly watchdog! What do they do all day? 😂 Must be the same people in the Belarus election fraud watchdog, or the Trump "not telling lies and working with nazis" watchdog!
Priceless!

 

[alien3dx]

Agreed.

Sony has a 100% share of the market for Playstation games
Microsoft has 100% share of the market for Xbox games

I would love to create a game for Playstation or Xbox, put it on my website and have people be able to download it. But that is not possible
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Does Apple prevent you from using Android? Android is the alternative here.

why impossible ? arent ff7 remake limit to ps4 .. no .. im waiting mac version,

 

[nickgovier]

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[nickgovier]

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[alien3dx]

This is the other straw man that keeps appearing in these threads. There's no reason why a non-Apple app store automatically means unsigned software. A new store could just provide a new location to download signed app packages.

some non-developer may a bit confuse.. as I mentioned many times. MACOS app you can download/install without the apps store while ios distribution is locked in one place. Android doesn't lock distribution also but when people trust play store they will download there also unless you're in china maybe?

 

[AngstyKylo]

It took a long time, but the wall is crumbling now.

Apple were complacent too long, and now the App Store model is going to be taken off them, rather than changing course earlier and suffering less.

Apple might shrug off one territory, but this, plus US action, plus EU action? Too much.

I think EU might be a problem, elsewhere they just need to set up a few offshore bank accounts for the relevant people.

 

[M3gatron]

Agreed.

Sony has a 100% share of the market for Playstation games
Microsoft has 100% share of the market for Xbox games

I would love to create a game for Playstation or Xbox, put it on my website and have people be able to download it. But that is not possible

LoL how is it impossible?
You can buy activation codes online for Playstation or Xbox games, you can buy physical disks in stores.

 

[Glideslope]

Apple should simply create a separate section in the App Store for those wanting to peddle iOS apps that don't meet Apple's Walled Garden Criteria.

Apple simply adds a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any damage, trauma, theft of personal information or malware attached to the app. Developers can sell their rejected apps, Apple takes no cut of sales and offers no support for the app or developer when issues arise.

Seems fair to me.

 

[whyamihere]

The retail comparison keeps coming up in these threads and it really doesn't work.

If Walmart decides not to stock a product, you can go to Target instead. If one retailer implements draconian rules on what they will sell or how much they will charge, people will go elsewhere, and there is effectively zero cost to the consumer for doing so. This implicit competition keeps the retailers honest to the benefit of consumers.

Apple allows only one retailer to exist - themselves. They can decide what to sell just like Walmart does, but there is no competition to provide an alternative. Developers and customers can only trust/hope that Apple does the right thing, since they have no power to influence them by going elsewhere.

"But what about Android?" There is a huge difference between changing phone ecosystem and throwing away an entire library of apps vs walking into the retailer next door. Apple has a captive audience with a high barrier to switching to an alternative, which retailers don't have. That is exactly the problem.

The difference is, if you buy a Ford, you can buy your car parts from Ford, or Walmart, or... But if you buy an iPhone, you can only buy your apps from Apple's store. Similarly, if you are a car part manufacturer and want to sell parts to Ford buyers, you can offer them wholesale to Ford and if you don't like Ford's terms, you can offer them to Walmart, or sell them yourself direct, or... But if you develop mobile apps and want to sell them to iPhone buyers, you can only sell them through Apple and have to follow Apple's rules. That, my friend, is the difference between a competitive market, and a monopoly.

Not true, a developer has every right to create a progressive web app outside of their app store.

While it is true iOS only allows one app store, that has been a fact since the beginning of the platform. Nothing has changed there. We aren't suddenly having the rug pulled out from us with this "revelation." So if you bought an iPhone, you knew that limitation and yet still willingly bought an iPhone. Just as someone developing apps for the iPhone knew this from the very beginning yet chose to proceed. The only thing that's changed is now everyone apparently wants to have their cake and eat it too.

If having multiple means of installing an app is more important to you than the benefits iOS provides, you have a choice. Vote with your dollar, stop using iOS which you knew only allowed one app store, and support Android.

 

[alien3dx]

Not true, a developer has every right to create a progressive web app outside of their app store.

While it is true iOS only allows one app store, that has been a fact since the beginning of the platform. Nothing has changed there. We aren't suddenly having the rug pulled out from us with this "revelation." So if you bought an iPhone, you knew that limitation and yet still willingly bought an iPhone. Just as someone developing apps for the iPhone knew this from the very beginning yet chose to proceed. The only thing that's changed is now everyone apparently wants to have their cake and eat it too.

If having multiple means of installing an app is more important to you than the benefits iOS provides, you have a choice. Vote with your dollar, stop using iOS which you knew only allowed one app store, and support Android.

progressive web app are not mobile app with a lot of limitation. If a developer said like this pretty bad.

Did once apple have other hardware cloning .. Yes so basically not a fact begining of the platform.

 

[alien3dx]

Apple should simply create a separate section in the App Store for those wanting to peddle iOS apps that don't meet Apple's Walled Garden Criteria.

Apple simply adds a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any damage, trauma, theft of personal information or malware attached to the app. Developers can sell their rejected apps, Apple takes no cut of sales and offers no support for the app or developer when issues arise.

Seems fair to me.

apple is perfect ecosystem but in reality lot's of weakness compare to other platform.With arm in next of line more worst. I really2 don't understand their point of view become a mobile hardware instead give a pro-device.. Should be separate company then can be matured.

 

[Krizoitz]

When you decide to shop at Walmart they don’t prevent you from from shopping elsewhere though, Apple does (no open Api for side loading or other app stores... unlike every other OS).

This wouldn’t be a problem if they were some small company, it is a problem though because they own not only the platform but the ACCESS to a huge chunk of people.

So buy a phone with those other OS’s. Apple doesn’t stop you from buying an Android phone, it doesn’t have a monopoly or even close to it on the smartphone market and it’s 100% clear from the day you purchase that iOS only supports the App Store.

Consumers have choice and are informed. You may not like Apples approach but that doesn’t, and shouldn’t, mean it’s wrong.

Developers are free to ignore iOS as well, there is no requirement they make apps for it, even if they make apps for macOS. They can develop for Android instead, a bigger market in fact.

Too many people confuse what they want with what Apple should be forced to do. Go buy an Android if you don’t like Apples approach, put your money where your mouth is instead of forcing them to weaken security for the rest of us.

 

[alien3dx]

So buy a phone with those other OS’s. Apple doesn’t stop you from buying an Android phone, it doesn’t have a monopoly or even close to it on the smartphone market and it’s 100% clear from the day you purchase that iOS only supports the App Store.

Consumers have choice and are informed. You may not like Apples approach but that doesn’t, and shouldn’t, mean it’s wrong.

Developers are free to ignore iOS as well, there is no requirement they make apps for it, even if they make apps for macOS. They can develop for Android instead, a bigger market in fact.

Too many people confuse what they want with what Apple should be forced to do. Go buy an Android if you don’t like Apples approach, put your money where your mouth is instead of forcing them to weaken security for the rest of us.

lol.... see history anti trust europe microsoft,google first . Sometimes some people still don't even understand it's not about % it's all about distribution..

 

[Krizoitz]

Am I the only one seeing lot of anti-Apple sentiment recently?

It’s not recent unfortunately.
Once upon a time this was a forum and website for people who liked Apple.

Basically I think there were two kinds of Apple fans back in the day, the ones who liked Apple for the products it made and the ones who liked Apple because it was the uncommon choice, the counter culture choice, the I’m not part of the “normal” crowd choice.

Unfortunately for them (well us rather) Apple became more mainstream, more popular, first with the iPod then the iPhone. Suddenly it wasn’t “edgy” or “rebellious” to like Apple products anymore. Those of us who liked Apple for being Apple didn’t have a problem with that, but the too-cool-for-school crowd suddenly had a problem. Liking Apple made didn’t make them rebels anymore. Some of them left and found new, less popular things to geek out about, like Linux. But a lot of them just stuck around andflipped their switch. Now it was “edgy” and “cool” (or whatever the equivalent is in modern slang, I’m too lazy to keep up, I lost track somewhere around one fleek’ 🤣 to hate Apple.

Unfortunately they didn’t migrate over to forums for things they like because they’ve built their identity on being anti-Apple rather than pro-Android or pro-Chrome OS or whatever.

And so everyone thread on this forum is flooded with all the people who hate Apple but have nothing better to do than keep posting on an Apple forum. That’s not to say Apple doesn’t deserve criticism sometimes or that we all have to agree, but you’d think a fan forum would (and should) be more focused on LIKING the thing.

But as that modern philosopher once said “haters gone hate, hate, hate, hate”.

 

[MacBH928]

Russia and anti-monopoly? Communist Russia? USSR Russia?...hmmmm...

 

[Ethosik]

LoL how is it impossible?
You can buy activation codes online for Playstation or Xbox games, you can buy physical disks in stores.

You missed my point. It is not possible for me to create a game, put it on my own website, and let PS4 or Xbox go there and download it. I have to either pay Sony or Microsoft licensing fees for the activation codes/physical media, or I have to pay Sony or Microsoft to use their store. Either way, I am paying Sony or Microsoft.
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Just to turn this into a valid comparison to the issue in the article, when did Microsoft or Sony launch a game that competes with yours, and disable the functionality you were using on Xbox and PlayStation consoles, to make your game less enjoyable and drive people to their alternative?

When has Apple done this? If you are referring to the screen time situation, you do know it was because they were using MDM. There are still other screen time competitor apps out there.

 

[Macyourdayy]

Russian anti-monopoly commission? Like the Putin anti-dictator watchdog? What does Trump’s close friend want him to do about Apple now?

 

[whyamihere]

Did once apple have other hardware cloning .. Yes so basically not a fact begining of the platform.

Lol. Please provide documentation showing Apple has ever approved an alternative non-iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch hardware to run iOS for end users. Or that they have ever approved end users an alternate app store on iOS. Obviously jailbreaking is not supported or approved by Apple. Just because a small group of people can have access to bypass the rules for typical end users, does not invalidate my point that iOS has always ever allowed a single app store run by Apple.

progressive web app are not mobile app with a lot of limitation. If a developer said like this pretty bad.

So a developer would like to create an app with more functionality... ie take advantage of the APIs and hardware that Apple put in time, money, and resources to create. Yeah, then that developer can accept that there is only one app store on iOS and there always has been. If they find Apple's SDK or app store too limiting, then they can develop for other platforms.

 

[alien3dx]

Lol. Please provide documentation showing Apple has ever approved an alternative non-iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch hardware to run iOS for end users. Or that they have ever approved end users an alternate app store on iOS. Obviously jailbreaking is not supported or approved by Apple. Just because a small group of people can have access to bypass the rules for typical end users, does not invalidate my point that iOS has always ever allowed a single app store run by Apple.



So a developer would like to create an app with more functionality... ie take advantage of the APIs and hardware that Apple put in time, money, and resources to create. Yeah, then that developer can accept that there is only one app store on iOS and there always has been. If they find Apple's SDK or app store too limiting, then they can develop for other platforms.

1. i mean this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone.

2. There is way distribute app via ad hoc license which using apple enterprise license but only on your company but in old times ehm ehm some company try to abuse it.

3. Seem you bit confuse,the nature problem in macos arm in the future. Now we can distribute macos apps either using own website, homebrew. What happen apps in macos arm ? Since the proc is same why does it will have diff method of distribution.

4. Some country do ask apple,google to block some apps which they dont like.So the only people have choice to get source and compile itself and have something 90 days testflight or keep reinstall it via adhoc, direct computer mac or another way i never try it.

 

[RalfTheDog]

...

To people think allowing side-loading apps compromises the device, do remember that Cellebrite exist, and they hack into iOS devices all the time and sell exploits to law enforcements. This happened before and will surely happen in the future, whether Apple like it or not. One critical security flaw can easily control ALL iOS devices without “side-loading” and hackers who owns that flaw can pretty much do whatever they want to do without user even knowing. Opening iOS does allow bad players to install malicious apps, but also opens new functionalities for good developers to enhance user experience in a way current iOS never could be. It is always a double-edge sword.

...

Cellebrite requires physical access to the device. This is why sometimes Customs takes your device into a different room for a while, then gives it back. This is why, you never turn the device on again after they do. You pull the SIM, then recycle the phone without ever unlocking it. Beyond that, IOS now requires the user unlock the phone before the USB port gets any access to the data side of the device. An unlocked phone can only use the lightning port for charging, noting else.

This is the other straw man that keeps appearing in these threads. There's no reason why a non-Apple app store automatically means unsigned software. A new store could just provide a new location to download signed app packages.

Software singed by an untrusted source is not signed software.

Apple should simply create a separate section in the App Store for those wanting to peddle iOS apps that don't meet Apple's Walled Garden Criteria.

Apple simply adds a disclaimer that they are not responsible for any damage, trauma, theft of personal information or malware attached to the app. Developers can sell their rejected apps, Apple takes no cut of sales and offers no support for the app or developer when issues arise.

Seems fair to me.

That would be a start, but Apple would need to let developers block their apps from running on devices that had ever been compromised by untrusted code. Once a device is compromised, it is compromised forever. If a compromised device is accessing data on your servers, they become compromised too.

 

[nickgovier]

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[RalfTheDog]

Except Apple changed the rules. Nobody developing "screen time" type apps knew "from the very beginning" that Apple was going to subsequently pull the rug out from under them. Now their choice is either eat the cake Apple has salted, or throw it in the bin.



I think you are confusing code signing with download location. An app package signed with an Apple-issued certificate could be downloaded from Apple's App Store or any other download location with no loss of security, if Apple chose to allow it.

People are upset that Apple is acting as a gateway, preventing dangerous software on their platform. They don't care if they are downloading the file from Apple or from Walmart. They want to download software Apple says is not secure. Are you wanting to force Apple to sign software they don't trust?

 

[Krizoitz]

Except Apple changed the rules. Nobody developing "screen time" type apps knew "from the very beginning" that Apple was going to subsequently pull the rug out from under them. Now their choice is either eat the cake Apple has salted, or throw it in the bin.

No, Apple didn't change the rules, the apps in question were violating the rules to begin with. The mistake was that the apps got approved to begin with, but Apple realizing it and enforcing the rule is not pulling the rug out from under them. The app developers either didn't read the documentation (their fault) or knowingly violated the rules on MDM API usage (still their fault). Its a pretty bad business model to hope that someone doesn't notice you violating the rules you agreed to.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

... because we really care what Russia thinks! lol