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spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,399
5,270
Looks pretty awesome, I'm curious to see how the bezels and thickness turn out. I'd be more than happy with something 12-15mm thick when folded, seeing the utility you get when unfolded. I'm also impressed that it's actually "foldable" instead of bendable. My concern is how bad will it be going back to a flexible plastic screen.
 

chronos1919

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2016
31
50
Lol. Reaching.
Nice try though! =)

Go find someone in your personal life to fight with. I’m not in the least bit interested in your bizarre accusations, seemingly pathological desire to argue with me for no reason, etc.

I came here to talk tech!!

You’re not going to reason with someone who created 50% of the posts in this thread alone. They clearly have nothing better to do than argue endlessly, spinning others’ comments into something they can take a pro-Samsung stance against.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,602
14,949
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Why do people feel the need to take Samsung sales and cherrypick the stats to include only their top tier phones?

Looking the last quarter financial report from Samsung, I see the following stats - https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-electronics-announces-second-quarter-2018-results

IM division (mobile)
Q1 2018 - 28.45
Q2 2018 - 24

Q2 2017 - 30.01

So from Q1 to Q2 revenue dropped 15.6%
and from Q2 2017 to Q2 2018 dripped 20%
So if the flagship has fallen 40% that doesn't seem to add up...

Most of the inroads into Samsungs sales has been in Asia by companies like Huawei.
 

Justanotherfanboy

Suspended
Jul 3, 2018
851
1,369
You’re not going to reason with someone who created 50% of the posts in this thread alone. They clearly have nothing better to do than argue endlessly, spinning others’ comments into something they can take a pro-Samsung stance against.

Thanks for the heads up, lol!!!
I was wondering what the heck was going on.
I’m genuinely intrigued by the tech... kinda agree with mkbhd’s “but why?” comment at this point, as having one 4” phone & one 7” tablet, rather than one 6.5” phone seems pointless.
However, once they get the thickness issue sorted (maybe drop the additional screen & have it fold outward, rather than inward?) & offer additional sizes, I suppose a 6.5” phone & 11” tablet could have some merit!
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
Most of the inroads into Samsungs sales has been in Asia by companies like Huawei.
I think all companies are feeling the pressure from manufactures like you mention. Samsung probably feeling the brunt much more than Apple
[doublepost=1541807885][/doublepost]
Sales of Galaxy S-class have been going downwards since the S4. The S9 is selling worse than the S8 which was worse than the S7.
I think their prices have been going up too like Apples?
[doublepost=1541808139][/doublepost]
Like I said, Samsung is now caught in the middle where Apple is dominating the high end (and the profits in the smartphone market) while the low and medium end faces brutal competition that will serve to only squeeze profits further.
I think all manufactures will continue to face pressure from lower prices phones that are just as capable and will meet the needs of 99% of consumers. Samsung is facing this pressure more than Apple because the move from one Android phone to another isn't as big a change to Apple to Android.

Apple has cut production massively for the XR.

Hopefully Apple will see the light that people are rebelling over their massive price increases. (Samsung and Google too, although they don't charge as much as Apple in actual street prices)
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,640
22,144
Singapore
Apple has cut production massively for the XR.

Hopefully Apple will see the light that people are rebelling over their massive price increases. (Samsung and Google too, although they don't charge as much as Apple in actual street prices)

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/might-finally-know-why-apple-cut-iphone-xr-192014564.html

Sorry to (potentially) burst your bubble.

The decrease in orders might be due more to quality control concerns rather than a drop in demand. The people hoping that Apple will receive divine retributi
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
I have never put my phone in my back pockets. Thanks for playing, though.

Please, tell us more about your manliness and how a brick in your pocket will accentuate your stature.

No need to be a jerk.

Men usually have shirt or coat pockets which can hold a folded phone. Like at 1:08 in ths spoof of tech groupies:


Heck, we had to carry thicker phones for years before the current style of thin slabs came along.
[doublepost=1541825097][/doublepost]
well they do have a patent for it from 2013 and 2014...

The 2013 patent is not for a folding phone; just a flexible one.
 
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dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/might-finally-know-why-apple-cut-iphone-xr-192014564.html

Sorry to (potentially) burst your bubble.

The decrease in orders might be due more to quality control concerns rather than a drop in demand. The people hoping that Apple will receive divine retributi
I have no bubble to burst. I have no vested interest in reducing Apples stock.
I am simply an Apple customer who does like a lot of the decisions they have made.
Saying that, that article doesn't make much sense to me in some ways. Apple has a demand to be met for the XR that will be higher than the XS. If they cut/don't expand production because of quality control issues then apple won't be able to keep up with demand and availability timescales will increase. If that doesn't happen then the article is hearsay.
[doublepost=1541832516][/doublepost]
The reason for looking at Samsung's high-end phones is because that's where most of the profits are.
I look at it from a customer point of view. I am not a shareholder in any company but it would be disingenuous to take only the high end phones.
The global population as a whole buys phones at all sorts of prices. Apple only copes with the high end of the market, in otherwords Apple is niche in terms of global market and for that reason all price points should be taken in to account.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,640
22,144
Singapore
I have no bubble to burst. I have no vested interest in reducing Apples stock.
I am simply an Apple customer who does like a lot of the decisions they have made.
Saying that, that article doesn't make much sense to me in some ways. Apple has a demand to be met for the XR that will be higher than the XS. If they cut/don't expand production because of quality control issues then apple won't be able to keep up with demand and availability timescales will increase. If that doesn't happen then the article is hearsay.

Aboveavalon estimates that the Xr will make up about 42% of iPhone sales for the year 2018, a little better than the sales of Xs (15%) and Xs Max (22%) combined.

That said, the people who are in the market for the Xr are not your die hard fanboys who rush out to buy the Xs on day one. They will eventually get round to buying one as and when it is convenient for them. So I wouldn’t be too concerned in this regard.
 

sidewinder3000

macrumors 65816
Jan 29, 2010
1,183
1,286
Chicagoland
Skip to 7:04, Jobs CLEARLY says 'We have invented multitouch'


Don't tell me this is the first time you're seeing this.
Have watched it dozens of times. Gives me chills every time I see it.

He definitely does say they “invented” it. I was mistaken about the specific language he used. Withdrawn.

I think it’s important to remember that Jobs spoke marketing as well as he spoke tech, and so “multi-touch” for him was a specific brand of touch interface, specific to Apple, because they were the first to bring it to market and had applied for a patent. To my recollection, no other product on the market had anything even remotely close to the multi/finger, easy-touch interface that Apple pioneered. So the word “invent” becomes a bit of a semantic knot. Were they the first to have the idea? No. Were they the first to publicly demonstrate proof of concept for a technology that made that idea possible? No. Did they innovate a system by which it was possible to make that idea and technology viable and practical in a 6 inch consumer product and bring it to market way before anyone else? Yes.

So it’s possible to debate what they “invented” forever be debating what that word means. The way Jobs used it he was clearly not pretending that they’d originated the idea of using multiple fingers to input on a touch screen. He was claiming that they invented “multi-touch™ “: the first viable consumer technology of its kind to ever hit the market and that was unique to Apple. In that, he was not wrong.
[doublepost=1541835697][/doublepost]
Its a shame that Apple cannot work on designing more that one or two devices at a time.
I disagree with most of what you wrote. You’re acting as if the exception (Apple delaying the release of the charging pad due to a technical problem) were the rule, and it’s simply not. No matter how hard you try to make it so. Unlike most other companies, Apple doesn’t typically share concepts or talk about vaporware. It’s just not how they’re built. Apple typically only talks about stuff that is ready for prime time. That’s just true. If you want to focus on the rare exceptions to make a non-point, I can’t stop you.

But I do agree with your statement above.

The way the company is structured they they seem to have their best people all work on something, and then something else. If I remember correctly, Jobs actually structured the company in this “flat” way because he thought it was a strength. That it meant stuff wouldn’t be worked on in silos and then not be compatible or truly integrated.

It’s possible that it evolved a bit from the notion that he didn’t want the company’s major initiatives to grow beyond what he could be involved in at any given time, because he liked to be more hands on than a typical CEO, rather than manage multiple teams on many projects. That part is just speculation.

But there’s no doubt that he talked glowingly about how a relatively small number of people were involved in the major projects at Apple, and that he boasted about what a “small” company it was.

Of course, it’s impossible to know what actually goes on behind the scenes. This is all gleaned from bits and pieces that are available for public consumption. As an Apple user, I do hope they are able to find a way to evolve and expand the number of projects they can work on at once, without losing what makes them and their products so special. But that’s a tall order when it comes to changing organizational structure and corporate culture.
 
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dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
I disagree with most of what you wrote. You’re acting as if the exception
I simply point out the bad things that Apple does and as a consequence it often comes across as if I think various things are the norm at Apple. I know and do not intend for it to come across like that.
[doublepost=1541839281][/doublepost]
Aboveavalon estimates that the Xr will make up about 42% of iPhone sales for the year 2018, a little better than the sales of Xs (15%) and Xs Max (22%) combined.
Its just a shame that Apple will not break out the unit sales. They obviously have something to hide.
I agree that the XR will sell better than the XS but not sure that the combines sales of XS and XR will break 50%
If you look at the average selling price, $765
Phones that sell higher than 765:
iPhone XS Max (1449,1249,1099)
iPhone XS (1349,1149,999)
iPhone XR (899,799)
iPhone 8 plus (849)

Phones that sell lower than 765:
iPhone XR (749)
iPhone 8 plus (699)
iPhone 8 (749, 599)
iPhone 7 plus (669,569)
iPhone 7 (669,569)

"Approximating" Apple has to sell equals amounts above the line to those below the line
So if Apple sells 37% XS/MAX like you say, then Apple has to sell a whole heap of iPhone 7's to compensate to bring that average price down to 765
And for Apple to sell 79% XR/XS/XS MAX then that just doesn't add up (unless the average selling price for 2018/2019 rises dramatically.
For those percentages to be correct, Apple would have to sell only the XR/XS and XS MAX to match the 2018 revenue figures which is impossible. So they are way off.


That said, the people who are in the market for the Xr are not your die hard fanboys who rush out to buy the Xs on day one. They will eventually get round to buying one as and when it is convenient for them. So I wouldn’t be too concerned in this regard.
That is illogical, fans of any product is not related to means.

I am never concerned about how much Apple sell, they can can succeed or go bust, I would be saddened by the latter and do not wish the former (I can understand why you might think that of me), you do appear to be overly concerned as to what people think.

The kind of things that I am concerned about however is how Apple treats its customers with respect to things like the right to repair. For instance, do you think it is acceptable for Apple to void a warranty if they touch any part of a product?
Do you think that Apple should be keeping service manuals secret? Do you think that Apple should be able to put kill switches in its products?
[doublepost=1541842060][/doublepost]
Aboveavalon estimates that the Xr will make up about 42% of iPhone sales for the year 2018, a little better than the sales of Xs (15%) and Xs Max (22%) combined.

That said, the people who are in the market for the Xr are not your die hard fanboys who rush out to buy the Xs on day one. They will eventually get round to buying one as and when it is convenient for them. So I wouldn’t be too concerned in this regard.
I decided to take a look at Apples annual results for the first time.
I've read some reports for one or two companies, Tesla included and it is quite interesting in some ways.
I think I can see why Apple has stopped reporting unit sales.
Over the last 2 years, Apple unit sales have actually declined or are flat in the following divisions: iPhone, iPad and Mac
While the average selling price of iPhone has gone up 17% in the last year which is what a lot of people are complaining about, this is also reflected in Mac sales.
While the opposite in iPad, people are shunning the iPad pro and buying cheaper models.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,640
22,144
Singapore
The kind of things that I am concerned about however is how Apple treats its customers with respect to things like the right to repair. For instance, do you think it is acceptable for Apple to void a warranty if they touch any part of a product?
Do you think that Apple should be keeping service manuals secret? Do you think that Apple should be able to put kill switches in its products?
I guess I can understand what Apple is trying to do here, since I am an elementary school teacher myself, and I do see some parallels between what they are doing and what I do when I establish classroom rules and routines with my students. For example, one basic rule I have is that no one leaves their seat without permission (and I do take pretty challenging classes this year). It might seem stifling and draconian, but the intent behind this is that by not being able to walk around as they wish, it's harder for students to misbehave and get up to mischief, which in turn results in fewer disruptions, allowing me to better conduct my lessons. I do mix this up with regular breaks so my students aren't desk bound for too long, but my point is that you have to (try and) see the intent behind the move, not just the move itself.

I don't believe that Apple deliberately sets out to screw their customers over, not when you are a company predicated to selling an experience. They sell a ton of devices, which by extension means that on any one day, they will be handling a lot of repair requests (a small percentage of failure of a large number of devices is still a fairly large number). So when you need to have a quick turnover rate of repairs, there has to be some sort of standardised operating procedure to adhere to.

The issue I see when you come up with any sort of rule or guideline is that you always have to account for the worst possible scenario. For example, say I decide to crack an iMac Pro open to upgrade the ram. I could do it properly and not end up damaging anything, or I could well end up breaking the entire display like what happened with a certain high-profile Youtuber. Or I could have damaged something inside without knowing it, and decided to conveniently hide this fact to make myself seem less guilty.

Then you have reports of counterfeiters in China who are opening their iPhones to strip for parts, then returning them to Apple Stores in exchange for working copies. So the most expedient way of combating this is to simply refuse devices that appear to have been tampered with, because when people don't open (or attempt to open) their devices, that's one less possible thing that could go wrong with them.

By kill switch, I assume you meant the patch to throttle your phone if the battery is unable to deliver peak voltage. I have expressed my thoughts on this matter when it was first reported on at the end of last year. Suffice to say, I do feel that Apple probably could and should have communicated their intentions better, but I do understand why they did it.

Same with third party repair shops. Yes, there are good ones like Louis Rossmann, but there are also crappy or dishonest ones. Again, the easiest way to handle this is to mandate that all repairs be done through their own Apple stores, but it also means that the good actors suffer alongside the bad.

I think that it all comes down to Apple doing what is most feasible for them when it comes to managing institutionalised repairs because ultimately, they are still one company, albeit one who is clearly trying to do everything by themselves.

But who knows - I could be reading Apple's intent wrong.
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,306
24,036
Gotta be in it to win it
I think I can see why Apple has stopped reporting unit sales.
Over the last 2 years, Apple unit sales have actually declined or are flat in the following divisions: iPhone, iPad and Mac
While the average selling price of iPhone has gone up 17% in the last year which is what a lot of people are complaining about, this is also reflected in Mac sales.
While the opposite in iPad, people are shunning the iPad pro and buying cheaper models.
Service sales are increasing making the company revenue less dependent on iphone sales. That makes reporting unit sales less relevant. At least in my opinion.
[doublepost=1541873338][/doublepost]
...do you think it is acceptable for Apple to void a warranty if they touch any part of a product?
Do you think that Apple should be keeping service manuals secret? Do you think that Apple should be able to put kill switches in its products
Again, imo, this is part of the issue. Let's say a third party repair shop breaks a warrantied part? It's on apple to fix? It's not as black and white as right to repair.

Car companies have the same right, not withstanding the magnuson-moss act. You bring your car to a garage to get brembo brakes installed and then your car develops engine trouble. The car manufacturer has to repair the engine, assuming the car is under warranty.

However, you swap out the ECU and then bring your car under warranty to have engine troubles addressed and the car manufacturer can decline to work on the car under warranty.

Grant the inner workings of an iphone and even a Mac are on a different scale, but the car manufacturer and Apple are battling the same basic premise.
[doublepost=1541873524][/doublepost]
...Heck, we had to carry thicker phones for years before the current style of thin slabs came along....
I used a phone holder on my belt rather then put the phones in my pocket, which is why I like the current crop of thin iphones. I can carry them in my pockets easily.
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
Service sales are increasing making the company revenue less dependent on iphone sales. That makes reporting unit sales less relevant. At least in my opinion.
Any you are entitled to your opinion. But Apple is choosing to do this when most media/news outlets state that this is bad.
Again, imo, this is part of the issue. Let's say a third party repair shop breaks a warrantied part? It's on apple to fix? It's not as black and white as right to repair.
That is simply FUD.

Car companies have the same right, not withstanding the magnuson-moss act. You bring your car to a garage to get brembo brakes installed and then your car develops engine trouble. The car manufacturer has to repair the engine,
assuming the car is under warranty.
I don't know what country you are in but I can tell you that in Australia and in the UK, if you take your car to a garage to get brakes installed, the garage is not liable for the engine. Again FUD
However, you swap out the ECU and then bring your car under warranty to have engine troubles addressed and the car manufacturer can decline to work on the car under warranty.
People have the right to repair. That does not mean that the manufacturer has to foot the bill for what you do that breaks anything
Grant the inner workings of an iphone and even a Mac are on a different scale, but the car manufacturer and Apple are battling the same basic premise.
People must have the right to repair. The only thing that manufacturers are challenging is the loss of control
Lets assume you are a vehicle driver and that your car is an Apple car, here are some scenarios that will play out and that you seem to accept when applied to phones or any other product you buy:
  • If you get a puncture, you will not be allowed to repair said wheel, you will have to bin that wheel and are not allowed to repair it because it may cause other problems down the line. This will be sold on safety grounds, even though in most countries you are allowed to fix certain punctures.
  • If you get a puncture, you will not be allowed to change the wheel yourself. You will have to call out an authorised apple repair man.
  • If one of your tyres have worn down, you will have to have all 4 tyres replaced at an Apple authorised dealer. You cannot go to Costco for instance to get your tyres replaced.
  • You will not be allowed to use what ever alloy wheels that pleases you, just official Apple rims.
  • If you replace the tyres with non authorised tyres, your engine will refuse to start.
  • If you have a problem with the material on your head rest, apple will open the bonnet and if the moisture indicators are red, Apple will have to replace the engine, the battery, and everything else because Apple have on record (video evidence is available) I add, stated that they cannot do partial repairs. Apple will not work on any device where the moisture indicators have triggered because that means that you have driven through water. It fails to take in to account that you do not live in a desert and that there is lots of moisture in some areas.
  • I could go on with lots of relevant comparisons and even more with some of the what if microsoft jokes.

I used a phone holder on my belt rather then put the phones in my pocket, which is why I like the current crop of thin iphones. I can carry them in my pockets easily.
That says a lot. I used to be the laughing stock for carrying my motorola v3 flip phone on my belt. Never again, its not worth it!!!

Do you wear jeans? What phone do you have, I went in to an Apple store last week and asked to put an iPhone XR in my jeans pocket and it seemed to fit and I don't think it will be uncomfortable or bend.

I do however keep my wallet in same pocket as my iPhone and it sticks to the back of the phone case, Which I have to keep readjusting so that the overall length of wallet and phone does not exceed pocket size (as in when the two only partially overlap)
[doublepost=1541898108][/doublepost]
Let's say a third party repair shop breaks a warrantied part? It's on apple to fix? It's not as black and white as right to repair.

Lets take an example, which isn't too far from how I believe Apple act.

Lets say you live in the UK and have a Mac laptop/desktop. The device stops working and you have to use Authorised parts to repair it. You also cannot repair it yourself and cannot take it to a 3rd party repair shop around the corner.
There has just been a storm in the general area and your screen wont turn on. The device is in all purposes dead.

You then do what every smart person does in the UK, you check the fuse in the plug and low and behold it has a black mark on the fuse. You then replace it with another fuse that you took out of some other plug - you are not the type of person to keep spare fuses on hand.

You then proceed to turn on the computer but are presented with the following message:

"Unauthorised fuse detected. This computer will now shutdown. Only Apple fuses may be used in this product."

Ok, you are smart, you remember that you have an old laptop lying around and you think great, lets get an authorised fuse out of that plug. You turn the laptop back on and are presented with a new message:

"We have detected an unauthorised repair. Only authorised repair centers can replace Apple fuses. This device will now shutdown"

This example may sound extreme to you but if Apple were able to control the fuses used in a product, they most certainly would.

Customers must retain the right to repair.
All companies must make spare parts available.
All companies must make service manuals available
 

ftaok

macrumors 603
Jan 23, 2002
6,487
1,572
East Coast
Any you are entitled to your opinion. But Apple is choosing to do this when most media/news outlets state that this is bad.
Over the years, Apple has chosen to do things that the tech and financial media has stated were horrible ideas. Time and time again, Apple has been proven correct.

For example, Apple opens up their own retail stores. I'd say that just about all of the media thought that this would be a huge financial blunder for Apple. After all, build-to-order mail order was how Dell was doing it and they were flying high. Gateway Country Stores didn't have any shoppers. What made Apple think they could do retail when the PC guys couldn't? The rest is history.

The point is that Apple doesn't really care what the media thinks is a good idea or a bad idea. They do what they always do, and it has nothing to do with making the media happy.
 

Naraxus

macrumors 68020
Oct 13, 2016
2,097
8,537
Steve did not give us a coy little glimpse in a dark room so he could keep hiding everything but one featurel
That's patently incorrect. The cell signal was hard-coded to always show 5 bars even though that wasn't the case. They had multiple iPhones on the reveal stage for Jobs to demo & make it seem like it was only one iPhone because as @kdarling pointed out the software was so buggy that it crashed the phone constantly. That's as you put it is the equivalent of a "coy little glimpse in a dark room".
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,306
24,036
Gotta be in it to win it
Any you are entitled to your opinion. But Apple is choosing to do this when most media/news outlets state that this is bad.
The media outlets are entitled to their opinions.

That is simply FUD.
It's only FUD because you have no counter-point.

I don't know what country you are in but I can tell you that in Australia and in the UK, if you take your car to a garage to get brakes installed, the garage is not liable for the engine. Again FUD
It's only FUD because based on your response, I can assume you missed the intent of the original post.

People have the right to repair. That does not mean that the manufacturer has to foot the bill for what you do that breaks anything
Nobody is stopping people from repairing, they do it all the time.

People must have the right to repair. The only thing that manufacturers are challenging is the loss of control
That loss of control is the sticking point, imo.

Lets assume you are a vehicle driver and that your car is an Apple car, here are some scenarios that will play out and that you seem to accept when applied to phones or any other product you buy:
  • If you get a puncture, you will not be allowed to repair said wheel, you will have to bin that wheel and are not allowed to repair it because it may cause other problems down the line. This will be sold on safety grounds, even though in most countries you are allowed to fix certain punctures.
  • If you get a puncture, you will not be allowed to change the wheel yourself. You will have to call out an authorised apple repair man.
  • If one of your tyres have worn down, you will have to have all 4 tyres replaced at an Apple authorised dealer. You cannot go to Costco for instance to get your tyres replaced.
  • You will not be allowed to use what ever alloy wheels that pleases you, just official Apple rims.
  • If you replace the tyres with non authorised tyres, your engine will refuse to start.
  • If you have a problem with the material on your head rest, apple will open the bonnet and if the moisture indicators are red, Apple will have to replace the engine, the battery, and everything else because Apple have on record (video evidence is available) I add, stated that they cannot do partial repairs. Apple will not work on any device where the moisture indicators have triggered because that means that you have driven through water. It fails to take in to account that you do not live in a desert and that there is lots of moisture in some areas.
  • I could go on with lots of relevant comparisons and even more with some of the what if microsoft jokes.
Great example of hyperbole on the internet.

That says a lot. I used to be the laughing stock for carrying my motorola v3 flip phone on my belt. Never again, its not worth it!!!

Do you wear jeans? What phone do you have, I went in to an Apple store last week and asked to put an iPhone XR in my jeans pocket and it seemed to fit and I don't think it will be uncomfortable or bend.

I do however keep my wallet in same pocket as my iPhone and it sticks to the back of the phone case, Which I have to keep readjusting so that the overall length of wallet and phone does not exceed pocket size (as in when the two only partially overlap)
Different strokes for different folks, which is why I like thin. Thin is in.

Lets take an example, which isn't too far from how I believe Apple act.
That's how you believe apple acts, or you know that apple acts this way.

Lets say you live in the UK and have a Mac laptop/desktop. The device stops working and you have to use Authorised parts to repair it. You also cannot repair it yourself and cannot take it to a 3rd party repair shop around the corner.
There has just been a storm in the general area and your screen wont turn on. The device is in all purposes dead.

You then do what every smart person does in the UK, you check the fuse in the plug and low and behold it has a black mark on the fuse. You then replace it with another fuse that you took out of some other plug - you are not the type of person to keep spare fuses on hand.

You then proceed to turn on the computer but are presented with the following message:

"Unauthorised fuse detected. This computer will now shutdown. Only Apple fuses may be used in this product."

Ok, you are smart, you remember that you have an old laptop lying around and you think great, lets get an authorised fuse out of that plug. You turn the laptop back on and are presented with a new message:

"We have detected an unauthorised repair. Only authorised repair centers can replace Apple fuses. This device will now shutdown"

This example may sound extreme to you but if Apple were able to control the fuses used in a product, they most certainly would.

Customers must retain the right to repair.
All companies must make spare parts available.
All companies must make service manuals available
Hypotheticals are fun to discuss. So let's further that by saying the unauthorized fuse causes a fire that burns a house down. Now the headlines read: "Apple computer burned a house down". The fact that an unauthorized repair caused this, will be lost.

As I stated, hypotheticals are fun to discuss.

As in some other threads, these posts may have strayed a wee far from the original topic.
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
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I guess I can understand what Apple is trying to do here, since I am an elementary school teacher myself, and I do see some parallels between what they are doing and what I do when I establish classroom rules and routines with my students. For example, one basic rule I have is that no one leaves their seat without permission (and I do take pretty challenging classes this year). It might seem stifling and draconian, but the intent behind this is that by not being able to walk around as they wish, it's harder for students to misbehave and get up to mischief, which in turn results in fewer disruptions, allowing me to better conduct my lessons. I do mix this up with regular breaks so my students aren't desk bound for too long, but my point is that you have to (try and) see the intent behind the move, not just the move itself.
And I guess these rules are fixed and cannot be flexible. I have seen first hand where inflexible school rules are bad. I have family that work in schools. I also have family where inflexible school rules have caused medical issues.
I don't believe that Apple deliberately sets out to screw their customers over, not when you are a company predicated to selling an experience. They sell a ton of devices, which by extension means that on any one day, they will be handling a lot of repair requests (a small percentage of failure of a large number of devices is still a fairly large number). So when you need to have a quick turnover rate of repairs, there has to be some sort of standardised operating procedure to adhere to.
Apple may not set out to deliberately screw their customers. But Apple makes the rules and the effect is that Apple does indeed screw over a given percentage of their customers. Louis Rossman says he gets 30 customers a day coming to him where Apple have placed a high repair cost due to their practices. Any company that uses a script like that is going to screw over their customers. If you have your wits about you or if you luckily get the right genius, then the outcome can be changed in to a positive one.
I recently took my Apple watch in to an Apple store. It was 2.5 years old and the touch functionality on the screen stopped working.
They said it was out of warranty. I told them that a screen should not fail in an unreasonable amount of time. Apple agreed with me and proceeded with the process.
The second line they gave me was that the Apple watch was not like other products and had to be sent away to be worked on and it could take weeks. This is not what I usually expect when I take things in to an apple store (which happens more often than it should). The next thing they said was that if it was water damage then it was not covered. Way to go Apple, you make obscene amount of profits that you cannot cover a few "waterproof" (note the inverted comments before people start to decry my choice of word) devices for water damage.
Time goes on and the watch comes back and my Apple watch is replaced. Didn't tell me what was wrong. Simply replaced the watch.
The issue I see when you come up with any sort of rule or guideline is that you always have to account for the worst possible scenario. For example, say I decide to crack an iMac Pro open to upgrade the ram. I could do it properly and not end up damaging anything, or I could well end up breaking the entire display like what happened with a certain high-profile Youtuber. Or I could have damaged something inside without knowing it, and decided to conveniently hide this fact to make myself seem less guilty.
This is simply FUD. Cars have been repaired by third party repair companies for years. If a mechanic can safely work on a killing machine, then I have no qualms about a third party repair company working on my out of warranty products, especially since Apple will not do repairs.
Then you have reports of counterfeiters in China who are opening their iPhones to strip for parts, then returning them to Apple Stores in exchange for working copies. So the most expedient way of combating this is to simply refuse devices that appear to have been tampered with, because when people don't open (or attempt to open) their devices, that's one less possible thing that could go wrong with them.
Again FUD. People have eyes.
By kill switch, I assume you meant the patch to throttle your phone if the battery is unable to deliver peak voltage. I have expressed my thoughts on this matter when it was first reported on at the end of last year. Suffice to say, I do feel that Apple probably could and should have communicated their intentions better, but I do understand why they did it.
That is one example, but no it was not the one I had in mind. I was thinking more like parts that are related to security.
Apple will flick the kill switch rather than reducing security. Apple wants the control rather than giving up said control to the customer. The customer must be the person in control of products that they purchase.
Same with third party repair shops. Yes, there are good ones like Louis Rossmann, but there are also crappy or dishonest ones. Again, the easiest way to handle this is to mandate that all repairs be done through their own Apple stores, but it also means that the good actors suffer alongside the bad.
FUD, I have all sorts of products. I have all sorts of service needs. I also go to restaurants. Use taxis and so on the list is endless. There are shoddy people and practices the world over yet the cogs still keep turning and I can get good repairs and service If I am wise enough. Give customers the credit they deserve to be able to choose the appropriate service in the same way they go about making choices elsewhere. The world won't end if Apple gives up control of the right to repair.
I think that it all comes down to Apple doing what is most feasible for them when it comes to managing institutionalised repairs because ultimately, they are still one company, albeit one who is clearly trying to do everything by themselves.

But who knows - I could be reading Apple's intent wrong.
I don't think you are, but the consequences are the same.
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The media outlets are entitled to their opinions.


It's only FUD because you have no counter-point.


It's only FUD because based on your response, I can assume you missed the intent of the original post.


Nobody is stopping people from repairing, they do it all the time.


That loss of control is the sticking point, imo.


Great example of hyperbole on the internet.


Different strokes for different folks, which is why I like thin. Thin is in.


That's how you believe apple acts, or you know that apple acts this way.


Hypotheticals are fun to discuss. So let's further that by saying the unauthorized fuse causes a fire that burns a house down. Now the headlines read: "Apple computer burned a house down". The fact that an unauthorized repair caused this, will be lost.

As I stated, hypotheticals are fun to discuss.

As in some other threads, these posts may have strayed a wee far from the original topic.
All of what you say about the right to repair is FUD. I am not going to spend a lot of time refuting all your claims. Perhaps if you start with one point then I might.
The fuse example was a relevant example of how Apple does not want to give up control. You can replace the fuse with any part you like.
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Over the years, Apple has chosen to do things that the tech and financial media has stated were horrible ideas. Time and time again, Apple has been proven correct.

For example, Apple opens up their own retail stores. I'd say that just about all of the media thought that this would be a huge financial blunder for Apple. After all, build-to-order mail order was how Dell was doing it and they were flying high. Gateway Country Stores didn't have any shoppers. What made Apple think they could do retail when the PC guys couldn't? The rest is history.

The point is that Apple doesn't really care what the media thinks is a good idea or a bad idea. They do what they always do, and it has nothing to do with making the media happy.
So you think it is good for shareholders not to see the unit sales? Why is this?
 

Michael Scrip

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So you think it is good for shareholders not to see the unit sales? Why is this?

I would think Apple shareholders would be more focused on revenue... not the number of items they sell.

But I'll admit I don't know anything about the stock market. :p
 

dilbert99

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I would think Apple shareholders would be more focused on revenue... not the number of items they sell.

But I don't know anything about the stock market. :p
I know little about the stockmarket too. But in my armchair, I would think that the unit sales are a great indicator to tell how customers are reacting to higher prices.

Apple is a juggernaut and it would take time to be able to determine problems based on sales $ alone.
 
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