San Francisco Officials Suggest Significant Changes Needed for Apple's New Flagship Store Proposal

[ThunderSkunk]

if you vote "Democrat" then this is the type of micro management that you get in return.

Two of the most difficult places in the entire country to get building projects through, for many many many years, have been San Francisco and San Diego. Has absolutely zero to do with which party your mayor campaigned with. To even go into it here would take more time than it's worth. There's too many lawsuits, too much history, behind every element of why things are the way they are.

But there's nothing new about any of this. You want to put a store in either of those downtown areas, you bring your A-game. This 3-sided metal box with a glass wall is not Apples (nor anyone else's) A-game.

Judged on the merits of this design, and not on how much we all love the client, it's a poor design and it deserves to be rejected. When the city has to point it out, and you don't have a bargaining chip to play, your architect sucks.

 

[macs4nw]

.....Practicing that profession reminded me of Harry Truman's quip about how his choice in life was to become either a politician or a piano player in a whorehouse.....

Priceless.....wonder if he ultimately regretted his choice...lol

 

[Rico-Suave]

Keep voting democrat.

Hey! Your being sarcastic! I totally get it.

What you really mean is instead of voting for democrats, let's vote for some crazy religious wing-nut republicans. They can attach a legislative rider to the planning commission's report that would make abortion punishable by death.

 

[RCGMac]

@RCGMac: What prevents a rendering plant beside your house is called "zoning". These people in the city government are trying to micromanage the design of a store.

Way to completely ignore the rest of my post. How a building is designed and interacts with the surrounding neighborhood is also a function of planning and zoning. Plus many cities include design standards in their zoning ordinances. My city for example doesn't allow a blank expanse of a wall for buildings over a certain length, they have to have articulation or architectural treatment. Planners have very little power, the real power lies with the Planning Commission. A planner serves as a advisor to the Planning Commission, but it is the Commission that has the final say. These meetings are public and open for comment, planning isn't done in a vacuum.

 

[ladeer]

What would you suggest city planners do instead? or would you prefer a system with no regulations? I can see their point if this design doesn't fit with the surrounding architecture. All they're trying to do is make a better city for the residents to live in. Don't see how that infringes your civil liberties or is it just because they are saying it to Apple. Thou shalt not question the wisdom and decisions of the all mighty Apple machine.

your understanding needs to be supplemented with the knowledge of the appearance of the Levis building this Apple store replaces. Hint: it's much worse than what Apple is building.

 

[Rico-Suave]

That is the great parody! That's exactly what an incredibly stupid, uneducated, bigoted ignoramus would say. Well done!

I used to live two blocks from that fountain. It really is that ugly.

 

[chriscrk]

Agreed. Why does the government get to determine aesthetics for Apple? I'm pretty sure Apple is quite talented in that department.

City planning is important, it allows having some coherence within cities.
Whether it's right or wrong in this case, that's another subject. But city planning is far more important than you'd imagine. People don't just build whatever they want wherever they want.

 

[Rico-Suave]

your understanding needs to be supplemented with the knowledge of the appearance of the Levis building this Apple store replaces. Hint: it's much worse than what Apple is building.

That's what's so funny about this whole episode. No one is seeing the aesthetic abortion that is currently in that location. It looks like it was designed in 1974 by some coked-out mall developer that somehow landed a gig designing a building on Union Square. If that building and it's accompanying fountain were vaporized tomorrow, not a single tear would be shed.

 

[wizard]

"The city's planners object to the uniform wall of glass along the store's main frontage on Post Street, suggesting that Apple should do more to break up the wall by including colors or textures or vertical design elements."

How on earth did we get to the point where we think this is a proper function of government?

In a nut shell by electing democrats and others with an inherent need to control others.

By the way I don't personally like Apples designs myself. Far to much glass for my tastes. However I don't live in one of these stores nor do I run a business from one. If Apple wants to sell there wares from such a place they are free to do so.

Frankly the only real issue I see is what happens to a glass store when the next earth quack hits. That is an interesting engineering question.

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Yeah seems silly there. if this is a new building you aren't following an existing structure. and seems like they'd like it to look like the other buildings around it.

OR someone on the committee LOVES the new iOS7 BOLD COLOR look and wants that!

Some of the worst cities I've been in have had all the ugliness of look alike buildings. The mind requires the stimulation that variety provides. That is why some of the most desirable cities have a hodgepodge of interesting structures.

----------

What would you suggest city planners do instead? or would you prefer a system with no regulations? I can see their point if this design doesn't fit with the surrounding architecture. All they're trying to do is make a better city for the residents to live in. Don't see how that infringes your civil liberties or is it just because they are saying it to Apple. Thou shalt not question the wisdom and decisions of the all mighty Apple machine.

Rational planning is a requirement for any city. That however has nothing to do with the look of a building. Heavy handed regulation leads to boring communities that decay rapidly.

----------

City planning is important, it allows having some coherence within cities.
Whether it's right or wrong in this case, that's another subject. But city planning is far more important than you'd imagine. People don't just build whatever they want wherever they want.

Within limits. You have to plan to have the facilities in place to handle structures and expansion. However there is no place in America for nitpicking over things that this article picked up on.

 

[iChrist]

.

Who cares about that ugly skeumorphic fountain??

 

[Fukui]

Government officials lack any vision in architectural design or creativity really, they're just addressing complaints from residents of the city.

You talk as if thats a bad thing...

 

[hemanwomanhater]

In a nut shell by electing democrats and others with an inherent need to control others.

By the way I don't personally like Apples designs myself. Far to much glass for my tastes. However I don't live in one of these stores nor do I run a business from one. If Apple wants to sell there wares from such a place they are free to do so.

Frankly the only real issue I see is what happens to a glass store when the next earth quack hits. That is an interesting engineering question.

----------


Some of the worst cities I've been in have had all the ugliness of look alike buildings. The mind requires the stimulation that variety provides. That is why some of the most desirable cities have a hodgepodge of interesting structures.

----------



Rational planning is a requirement for any city. That however has nothing to do with the look of a building. Heavy handed regulation leads to boring communities that decay rapidly.

----------



Within limits. You have to plan to have the facilities in place to handle structures and expansion. However there is no place in America for nitpicking over things that this article picked up on.

Nitpicking? There's a gigantic blank steel wall facing the sidewalk on two sides, and the design would require moving one of the city's landmarks. I don't think raising concerns over those issues can really be considered nitpicking. It's a really poor design choice on Apple's architects' part and it should be rejected. The only reason the mayor and other city officials are suddenly showing any concern is because of a mild public outcry over the designs. They would be irresponsible to NOT listen to people that actually live in the city who elected them, wouldn't they?

 

[IJ Reilly]

Priceless.....wonder if he ultimately regretted his choice...lol

I don't think so. I believe the context of the remark made late his life was that he thought that politicians had become piano players in a whorehouse, as opposed to public servants. Pity he didn't live to see how it works today, he might have felt better about this own day. Piano player in a whorehouse would be a promotion for most of today's crew.

 

[wizard]

As someone who has sat through dozens and dozens of city council and planning commission meetings for my job, I can safely say that your comment makes you sound like a crazy person.

What facts, may I ask, did you base it on?

I'm not sure what he bases his comments on but since I'm of the same opinion I will sum it up this way 40 years of experience seeing this crap. It isn't crazy at all as such comments always come from fringe leftists with no sense of reality. Unless there is a structural or safety issue it isn't governments domain to comment on how much glass is used to build a structure.

Beyond that these are commercial structures. As such they don't stay around for long. I'm reminded of an issue locally where some Democrats objected Mc Donald's painting parts of their restraints red. The problem here is two fold. One is individuals, in this case a very small number creating problems for a business they like never visit. The second problem is that it simply isn't a concern of government what color your house is.

I could go on, but recalling every incident of some stupid Democrat obstructing a business for tedious concerns over trivial crap is frankly something repeated again and again. It should surprise nobody that some of the cities most in distress in America today are heavily Left leaning. That is in large part due to an anti business attitude and flaky unpredictable regulations.

 

[holmesf]

Well u arm chair quarterbacks fortunately have zero say to what happens in San Francisco

Seriously. It is astonishing to see how many people think that Apple should be allowed to build whatever it wants. No wonder so much of America is dominated by strip malls. Because the building faces a public space, the public has a complete right to dictate its aesthetic. If this building were out in the middle of nowhere where no one is forced to look at it, then fine, do whatever you want -- but this is downtown San Francisco.

Personally I don't like the fact that one side of it is a completely featureless wall. Reminds me of something you'd find in the Soviet Union. I'm glad the city is pushing for a redesign.

 

[macs4nw]

I don't think so. I believe the context of the remark made late his life was that he thought that politicians had become piano players in a whorehouse, as opposed to public servants. Pity he didn't live to see how it works today, he might have felt better about this own day. Piano player in a whorehouse would be a promotion for most of today's crew.

Thanks for that enlightenment. And yes, to the last part of your quote, too sleazy for my taste too!

 

[carlgo]

Seems like they will sit down, rearrange things and this will result in a nicer design both for Apple and for the city. This is exactly how it should work.

The original design was lazy as was whoever at Apple let it be seen publicly.

 

[maxosx]

Planning and Design Review have always been functions of city government, it may be frustrating at times but it's nothing new.

Precisely.

San Francisco being the iconic city it is, has every reason to call the shots. Nothing is forcing Apple to build there, nor will the store be a make or break business for SF.

Keeping things in perspective has never been one of Apple's strong suits.

 

[QCassidy352]

To those few of you who both understood my point and had something thoughtful to say in response, thanks for the discussion, whether we agree or not. To those who either missed the point or responded with something off topic/non-responsive/personal attack, thanks for the laughs. And thanks to all for reminding me why there are way better uses of time than trying to discuss social issues on the Internet.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I'm not sure what he bases his comments on but since I'm of the same opinion I will sum it up this way 40 years of experience seeing this crap. It isn't crazy at all as such comments always come from fringe leftists with no sense of reality. Unless there is a structural or safety issue it isn't governments domain to comment on how much glass is used to build a structure.

Beyond that these are commercial structures. As such they don't stay around for long. I'm reminded of an issue locally where some Democrats objected Mc Donald's painting parts of their restraints red. The problem here is two fold. One is individuals, in this case a very small number creating problems for a business they like never visit. The second problem is that it simply isn't a concern of government what color your house is.

I could go on, but recalling every incident of some stupid Democrat obstructing a business for tedious concerns over trivial crap is frankly something repeated again and again. It should surprise nobody that some of the cities most in distress in America today are heavily Left leaning. That is in large part due to an anti business attitude and flaky unpredictable regulations.

No, please do go on. You write excellent fiction.

 

[wizard]

If we were talking about the Federal government, I'd absolutely agree with you, but we're not. I see no issue with one city government choosing to have a bit more control over the aesthetics of their city than the governments of other cities might choose to have.

In a sufficiently large city there is no difference between the local government and the federal government as far as accessibility goes. Besides since when is it all right for local government to take away basic rights while it is objectionable for the federal government. A dictatorship is just that, be it a community of 100 or 100 million.

If you don't like the choices your local government is making, then you can choose to:
1 - Rally around someone who is running with a vision of what you want your government to look like.

True but how many times have these people lied their way into office with promises to reform and nothing happens?

2 - Run yourself.

And have everything about your life examined instead of the platform you are running on.

3 - Keep quiet.
4 - Leave the city.

Interesting because many do. City life isn't what it is cracked up to be. Some of the various policies cities have to increase "livability" actually result in the cess pools many cities have become.

This would be unacceptable if it were the federal government, as it's significantly more difficult to shake them up. About all the change that happens is every 8 years the president gets termed and we get a new one (take a look - despite approval ratings below 10% more than 90% of representatives and senators remain seated between terms... many of them have held office for over a decade.)

Take a look at many city administrations, no term limits in most locations

 

[holmesf]

It should surprise nobody that some of the cities most in distress in America today are heavily Left leaning. That is in large part due to an anti business attitude and flaky unpredictable regulations.

Yeah, San Francisco is really in distress right now. We're not in the middle of an economic boom or anything. If only they would let Walmart in to get some minimum wage jobs in this town! They are just so anti-business to not let them build wherever they want! Instead we have **** companies like Twitter, Dropbox, and Yelp! Not to mention all the kids bussing from SF to Google, Facebook, and Apple. Why can't they just work at McDonalds like the good ol' days?

 

[Born Again]

Seriously. It is astonishing to see how many people think that Apple should be allowed to build whatever it wants. No wonder so much of America is dominated by strip malls. Because the building faces a public space, the public has a complete right to dictate its aesthetic. If this building were out in the middle of nowhere where no one is forced to look at it, then fine, do whatever you want -- but this is downtown San Francisco.

Personally I don't like the fact that one side of it is a completely featureless wall. Reminds me of something you'd find in the Soviet Union. I'm glad the city is pushing for a redesign.

Yup!

I completely agree with the city . It would be drab and boring since that wall will receive the most traffic.

It would be a major eyesore

So all the sf haters - u don't know what you're talking about.

Obviously too busy drinking the apple koolaid during this heat wave

 

[hemanwomanhater]

I'm not sure what he bases his comments on but since I'm of the same opinion I will sum it up this way 40 years of experience seeing this crap. It isn't crazy at all as such comments always come from fringe leftists with no sense of reality. Unless there is a structural or safety issue it isn't governments domain to comment on how much glass is used to build a structure.

Beyond that these are commercial structures. As such they don't stay around for long. I'm reminded of an issue locally where some Democrats objected Mc Donald's painting parts of their restraints red. The problem here is two fold. One is individuals, in this case a very small number creating problems for a business they like never visit. The second problem is that it simply isn't a concern of government what color your house is.

I could go on, but recalling every incident of some stupid Democrat obstructing a business for tedious concerns over trivial crap is frankly something repeated again and again. It should surprise nobody that some of the cities most in distress in America today are heavily Left leaning. That is in large part due to an anti business attitude and flaky unpredictable regulations.

I think you're just regurgitating everything you've heard from right-leaning radio or cable news because you like to do that whenever the moment seems appropriate for it. This really isn't a partisan situation, though. Everyone knows Apple and San Francisco will stay friends, but the end result will be a better-looking building that doesn't uproot a landmark. It's going to end just fine for business too, I promise.

 

[wizard]

Seriously. It is astonishing to see how many people think that Apple should be allowed to build whatever it wants.

Which nobody has said. What many of us object to is the planning commission comments on things that are absolutely none of their business. The comment about too much glass is asinine.

By the way I don't like the looks of this store but it isn't my domain to object to it. The property isn't mine and frankly I'm not sure people would like my tastes.

No wonder so much of America is dominated by strip malls.

Strip malls are the result of the incredible difficulty in starting up a small business. Small startups can't afford fancy building or high rents so you have strip malls. In the past many of these sorts of small businesses would have been started in somebodies home but even that has been regulated to death.

Because the building faces a public space, the public has a complete right to dictate its aesthetic.

No they don't.

If this building were out in the middle of nowhere where no one is forced to look at it, then fine, do whatever you want -- but this is downtown San Francisco.

Downtown San Francisco is nothing special and just because it is downtown doesn't mean that they have special rights over and above governments elsewhere.

Personally I don't like the fact that one side of it is a completely featureless wall.

So? Is it your land, your building.

Frankly I can agree with you that the building sucks and could lead to an interesting discussion on what makes architecture suck. However it isn't our domain to be making these decisions for Apple.

Reminds me of something you'd find in the Soviet Union. I'm glad the city is pushing for a redesign.

They really aren't even doing that. This doesn't seem to be a total rejection.

I'd prefer that somebody at Apple would simply wise up and realize just how strange their new buildings are. I'm not one to extend a lot of confidence in glass and the fish bowl look of the buildings. It makes me wonder how the building would hold up with three feet of snow on the roof. Hey maybe someone will forward this then read to Tim Cook.

Of course I have my own eccentricities, if done my way the form of the building would be a Castle Keep. Maybe modeled after Rochester Castle in England. Having my own Keep is one of those "if I win the lottery dreams", that and sailing around the world.