Scott Forstall

[I7guy]

Let me point out at the very outset. Absolutely no insult was meant. I wanted to draw your attention to a process that many Apple fans went through over the years. To show my respect the post will be deleted.

The link that you have provided was interesting and thought-provoking, nevertheless I was interested in your opinion for the sake of discussion on this very question.

Okay, i appreciate that, thank you as I misread the intent. The reason I mentioned the aforementioned website is due to business case studies; which have me thinking.

I think a fairer statement to "there has been no innovation since 2011" is "since 2011 the rate of innovation has slowed". That may be more to the point.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Okay, i appreciate that, thank you as I misread the intent. The reason I mentioned the aforementioned website is due to business case studies; which have me thinking.

I think a fairer statement to "there has been no innovation since 2011" is "since 2011 the rate of innovation has slowed". That may be more to the point.

I am glad we sorted it out. #
Yes, it is a very interesting question, I have read a lot of articles lately myself on this topic.
Most probably your approach is more sophisticated and I have to agree with your assessment in the above post.
I have been given much thought about what is really happening at Apple at the moment. It must be a complex phenomenon. Let us say my biased approach in evaluating it is influenced by long time disappointment that led to putting down my iPhones and not upgrading to Yosemite as I really don't like the new trend.

 

[daijholt]

Again like many times - and in numerous threads - questions are evaded or not answered. I am getting used to it.

Better focus on:

"innovate |ˈinəˌvāt|
verb [ no obj. ]
• [ with obj. ] introduce (something new, esp. a product): innovating new products..."

The concept of introducing something new definitely applied to Apple 10 years ago and still applies now.

They introduced a portable music player/digital store that mastered obtaining, carrying and sharing your music in a way that nobody else had.

They offered a new way for people to interact with their phones with multi-touch technology, and made it far easier to achieve the same thing others were already doing; like viewing emails & browsing the web by removing the pointless barriers other manufacturers insisted a phone needed for it to be efficient.

They introduced a new kind of mobile fingerprint sensor to the consumer market, whereby every fingerprint sensor in a phone before was the less-effective "swipe" kind that people ignored because they were a pain in the ass.

They've introduced a new mobile payment system, not one that's new in principle, but one that's new because it actually works far more efficiently than anything that has come before.

This is Apple's hook; they may not necessarily introduce the overarching technological category, but they'll perfect it in a way that nobody else can. The "innovation" isn't the technology itself, it's the implementation of it.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

The concept of introducing something new definitely applied to Apple 10 years ago and still applies now.

They introduced a portable music player/digital store that mastered obtaining, carrying and sharing your music in a way that nobody else had.

They offered a new way for people to interact with their phones with multi-touch technology, and made it far easier to achieve the same thing others were already doing; like viewing emails & browsing the web by removing the pointless barriers other manufacturers insisted a phone needed for it to be efficient.

They introduced a new kind of mobile fingerprint sensor to the consumer market, whereby every fingerprint sensor in a phone before was the less-effective "swipe" kind that people ignored because they were a pain in the ass.

They've introduced a new mobile payment system, not one that's new in principle, but one that's new because it actually works far more efficiently than anything that has come before.

This is Apple's hook; they may not necessarily introduce the overarching technological category, but they'll perfect it in a way that nobody else can...

Let me point out once again. We were discussing a concrete period, i. e. 2011-2014 and compairing it to the period before it.

The "innovation" isn't the technology itself, it's the implementation of it.

That is a sound statement of course w/o quotes.

 

[One13Truck]

Living on past reputation and former glories doesn't mean that everything is going swimmingly. Sales are up and all that but since Jobs died we've had a lacklustre iPhone 6 and two extremely buggy mobile operating systems. Apple release half-finished software to market and expect customers to run beta products for months on end. That is beginning to turn some diehards away so what hope have they of keeping the Android switchers who have come to see what the 6+ is like?
1GB of RAM in the 6/6+ is criminal for the amount they charge, and then there's iOS8 on top! If Apple don't watch out their empire will soon come crashing down. People have to live with these phones for 12-24 months and if they end up hating them then it's pretty sure that their next contract phone won't be made by Apple. Loyalty works both ways and Apple need to release good, finished, products in order to keep their customers loyal.
Let's face it, Apple have such a good rep and image that Cook could make a complete pig's ear of thing for a good few years before it all goes pear shaped. Anyone could. He's doing nothing special IMO. It's like a football manager coming to Real Madrid, anyone could do the job up to a point and certainly for the first few months.

This is 100% spot on. Couldn't possibly be said any better!

 

[One13Truck]

Could always just stick to a PowerPC, Core Duo machine, or keep using any previous OS X version and not upgrade for awhile...

Why hate the OS? Because its evolving? Windows 10 will be doing the same thing -- modernizing everything across the board.

If you look at OS X 10.0 Beta through 10.9 you will see some serious changes... its hard to believe its the same OS. 10.10 is just a different visual leap.

---

As far as iOS goes... for someone who has issues with focus, the cleaner iOS versions have been easier for me to use. I stuck to Android with simple themes until iOS 7 came out... then I've been in love since!

Overall, its a matter of opinion and taste. The majority of people like the design direction, and that's the way it will continue. If you don't like it, keep using a retro product, stick on your current OS, or jailbreak and install a different theme, or home someone comes up with a "classic theme" for Yosemite!

That is exactly what I have done. Before the iOS 7 and 8 releases I never considered a JB. But I have done it to return it to an iOS6 theme with a nice font fix closer to a proper iOS font. Unfortunately it themes the font systemwide but only themes the app icons. But I take what I can get. I'll be doing the same for the iPad on 8.1.1 at some point as well.

Yosemite is just awful. Just nothing but eye burning headache causing bright white pastelly colored garbage. So basically it's turned into the desktop version of iOS8. I've fixed the Yosemite font and the icons to their proper skeuomorphic looks as well but there's only so much you can shine this junk. If I could scrap it and go back to Mavericks I'd do it in a second.

Otherwise this is my exact plan. I'm running my old phone, my iPad, and my computer as long as I can and I will do no more updates of OS or iOS until they come out with something that looks good and actually works. If any of them die they will be replaced by a competitor. I've used Apple for 30+ years but they have lost me with their direction and management team. When things change I'll be happy to come back. Until then my leaving doesn't even register, but I'm not the only one they've pushed to this point by going in the directions they are.

 

[Solomani]

That is exactly what I have done. Before the iOS 7 and 8 releases I never considered a JB. But I have done it to return it to an iOS6 theme with a nice font fix closer to a proper iOS font. Unfortunately it themes the font systemwide but only themes the app icons. But I take what I can get.

UI and themes are cyclical. Give it a few years and the current 'flat theme' will get old fast, and then people will get bored of it and will clamor for "something new". That something new will likely resemble the original 3D eye-candy and skeumorphism that we saw in the Forstall era.

Remember that even Apple hardware goes through "design eras". Do you remember the Era of Colorful Apple Products? Bondi blue iMac? Rasberry-colored iBooks? And tons of third party fruity-colored products that were designed for those Apple products? Those are gone now. But guess what? It's all cyclical. The Colorful Fruity Era may come back eventually.

Things that used to be hip may return to the mainstream once more. Just a matter of time. Afros might come back as cool once more. And bell-bottoms. And classic Mustangs. And Star Trek. Well, maybe not Star Trek.

 

[Count Blah]

...

If cook went or when he does Ive should take over. He like Jobs gets the intersect between technology and art, forstall does not have a clue about the design element which is what makes Apple apple.

...

I just threw up in my mouth. Ive is the definition if "Form over Function". Look at the iMac - removing user serviceable parts for th sake of fashion. Screw over customers, for no other reason than good looks, and hoping for failures so the walking cash bags(aka customers) have to pony up more $$$ for replacement. Having updated three iMacs in the last year, apples new model would be to buy new macs instead - with maxed out stats at the time of purchase.

F that. Ive cares precious little for customers. His new found buddies in the fashion industry will have more day in future macs/mobile devices than customer feedback.

I'm barely hanging on(so is a large extended family I have convinced to go to apple). At this point, I can no longer recommend macs to the family(remember those three new iMac purchases I averted for another year or two). And I will be really struggling when my suped up cmbp(16gigs of ram and SSD) finally gives up the ghost.

Just say no to Ive!

 

[Wbutchart]

I just threw up in my mouth. Ive is the definition if "Form over Function". Look at the iMac - removing user serviceable parts for th sake of fashion. Screw over customers, for no other reason than good looks, and hoping for failures so the walking cash bags(aka customers) have to pony up more $$$ for replacement. Having updated three iMacs in the last year, apples new model would be to buy new macs instead - with maxed out stats at the time of purchase.

F that. Ive cares precious little for customers. His new found buddies in the fashion industry will have more day in future macs/mobile devices than customer feedback.

I'm barely hanging on(so is a large extended family I have convinced to go to apple). At this point, I can no longer recommend macs to the family(remember those three new iMac purchases I averted for another year or two). And I will be really struggling when my suped up cmbp(16gigs of ram and SSD) finally gives up the ghost.

Just say no to Ive!

Go to windows then! Apple has ALWAYS been about form as much as function, to look past that is to deny who they are.

I'm sure you will love a nice new dell.....

 

[Count Blah]

Go to windows then! Apple has ALWAYS been about form as much as function, to look past that is to deny who they are.

I'm sure you will love a nice new dell.....

I don't know what macs you've been buying, but they have almost always been function over form. Especially in the last 10+ years with OS X. As a user, you can keep it as simple as you want, or as a more advanced user, you open up the hood and work in the FreeBSD world. The macs in this timeframe have been accessible by the users, and that was a MAJOR reason macs have retained their value. But now does not care about customers maintaining their own machines. Customers are just bags if cash.

I started in the Apple ][+ days, and while I took a break in the early/mid 90s, I cMe back to a black macbook pros of the late 90s, and the G3 tower in 99(around there). So I am not a fly-by-night apple customer.

But since Ive has had more say, the push has been towards anti-consumer designs in favor of form and planned obsolescence.

So while I'll hang on, the extended family will most likely not, due to having to spend twice as much as planned for the typical new computer purchase(due to having to max out specs at time of purchase).

Just say no to Ive.

 

[Zxxv]

I don't know what macs you've been buying, but they have almost always been function over form. Especially in the last 10+ years with OS X. As a user, you can keep it as simple as you want, or as a more advanced user, you open up the hood and work in the FreeBSD world. The macs in this timeframe have been accessible by the users, and that was a MAJOR reason macs have retained their value. But now does not care about customers maintaining their own machines. Customers are just bags if cash.

I started in the Apple ][+ days, and while I took a break in the early/mid 90s, I cMe back to a black macbook pros of the late 90s, and the G3 tower in 99(around there). So I am not a fly-by-night apple customer.

But since Ive has had more say, the push has been towards anti-consumer designs in favor of form and planned obsolescence.

So while I'll hang on, the extended family will most likely not, due to having to spend twice as much as planned for the typical new computer purchase(due to having to max out specs at time of purchase).

Just say no to Ive.

You honestly think Jonny Ive is solely to blame. You don't think Steve Jobs had anything to do with apples direction. You really think he didn't have a master plan so to speak that one day we can do this, then we can do that. You don't think Steve shared this with his closest friends, one of whom is Johnny Ive.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

You honestly think Jonny Ive is solely to blame. You don't think Steve Jobs had anything to do with apples direction. You really think he didn't have a master plan so to speak that one day we can do this, then we can do that. You don't think Steve shared this with his closest friends, one of whom is Johnny Ive.

Zxxv, you have a point. Nevertheless I think that Jobs shared his visions with Ive only in design and not software. Forstall was as close to him as Ive and he did not let Ive to Forstall's field. This plus many other factors led to the unbearable relation between the two of them.

 

[Zxxv]

Zxxv, you have a point. Nevertheless I think that Jobs shared his visions with Ive only in design and not software. Forstall was as close to him as Ive and he did not let Ive to Forstall's field. This plus many other factors led to the unbearable relation between the two of them.

Have you entertained the possibility that Steve told Tim that if Scott gets out of hand get rid of him. That maybe Steve gave the job to Tim when Scott maybe expected it because he knew at some point Scott had to go?

Maybe Steves last meeting with Tim was don't be afraid to fire Scott. Maybe just maybe?

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Have you entertained the possibility that Steve told Tim that if Scott gets out of hand get rid of him. That maybe Steve gave the job to Tim when Scott maybe expected it because he knew at some point Scott had to go?

Maybe Steves last meeting with Tim was don't be afraid to fire Scott. Maybe just maybe?

Interesting thought. There might be many scenarios. Who knows... One thing is for certain, Ive should not design software.

 

[Zxxv]

Interesting thought. There might be many scenarios. Who knows... One thing is for certain, Ive should not design software.

I think his clean lines are cool on hardware but software its a bit ugh. What I don't like so much is when I look at an android device I think oh that looks nice. Never thought that before. iOS was always so different. Who knows if Steve would have gone in this direction. Guess we just gotta enjoy the ride or get off

 

[Ulenspiegel]

I think his clean lines are cool on hardware but software its a bit ugh. What I don't like so much is when I look at an android device I think oh that looks nice. Never thought that before. iOS was always so different. Who knows if Steve would have gone in this direction. Guess we just gotta enjoy the ride or get off

I completely share your opinion. Ive is a unique industrial designer. I adore and enjoy every day his work. But, please, don't let him use the Bauhaus style in software or we will stuck in the 2D world, like a lost escargot on a kitchen table.

 

[Zxxv]

I completely share your opinion. Ive is a unique industrial designer. I adore and enjoy every day his work. But, please, don't let him use the Bauhaus style in software or we will stuck in the 2D world, like a lost escargot on a kitchen table.

My best icon on my iPhone is Instagram cause they haven't updated it. Still looks like someone put a lot of effort into it. Everything else looks like acid blotter paper

 

[I7guy]

This is 100% spot on. Couldn't possibly be said any better!

Well it's spot on for YOU! It's not spot on for me.

People are loving the new I6 and i6+ and I get to find out shortly. IOS 8 has new features that are begging to be hooked into and was clearly no less or more buggy than ios 7,6,5,4,3,2,1.

Even though the rate of innovation has gone down, apple has managed to pull a few tricks out of it's hat. Nobody I know who has an i6 or i6+ is complaining about the (lack of) memory.

So and on it goes.

 

[Zxxv]

Well it's spot on for YOU! It's not spot on for me.

People are loving the new I6 and i6+ and I get to find out shortly. IOS 8 has new features that are begging to be hooked into and was clearly no less or more buggy than ios 7,6,5,4,3,2,1.

Even though the rate of innovation has gone down, apple has managed to pull a few tricks out of it's hat. Nobody I know who has an i6 or i6+ is complaining about the (lack of) memory.

So and on it goes.

things do reboot/reload on i6. Maybe they don't see it. or realise when its doing it but it does do it. Most clear is changing apps and seeing them load from scratch, i.e. if you force close an app and reload it you see its start screen animation. Same type of reboot is seen often.

 

[Count Blah]

You honestly think Jonny Ive is solely to blame. You don't think Steve Jobs had anything to do with apples direction. You really think he didn't have a master plan so to speak that one day we can do this, then we can do that. You don't think Steve shared this with his closest friends, one of whom is Johnny Ive.

What? Kind of a strange point, seeing as how Apple has to plan things out many years in advance. Plus Steve knowing his fate, would pass along his desires for many years beyond that. It would be silly to think otherwise.

But do I think Steve said, "hey, let's take what has made us successful,over the last decade, and turn it on its ear."? No, no I dont. A mobile device was always planned to be glued together, with little to no customer serviceability. But I doubt Steve planned to screw over the Mac buyers by closing down ALL the macs to the customers.

You may think it's no big deal, as you get rid of your two year old macs, and purchase brand new ones. But for families and folks on tighter budgets, macs have become more difficult to justify owning than they have in a LONG time. Anti-consumer and planned obsolescence literally built in(or should I say glued in) to each Mac is the new path for Apple. And I doubt Steve stressed that future in his last days.

 

[daijholt]

Let me point out once again. We were discussing a concrete period, i. e. 2011-2014 and compairing it to the period before it.

Fair enough. But comparing periods of innovation is an ambiguous practice, since 10 years ago we didn't have the leap in technology we currently have. Technological innovation is given a huge push and then slows down.

The end of this article sums it up well, just scroll down to "evolution at work"
http://www.macworld.com/article/2599505/why-old-iphones-become-sluggish-over-time.html#jump

I would argue that where we are now isn't exclusive to Apple, it's an inevitable stage of technological advancement that every product reaches, at which point we move onto something new. I suppose the whole point of this discussion is the fact Apple hasn't added that "something new" for a while now.

That being said, could we not consider Apple Pay as the new thing we'll all talk about for years to come? It's more subtle and harder to clearly define, but that shouldnt make the way it'll change our lives any less comparable to the birth of iPhone.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Fair enough. But comparing periods of innovation is an ambiguous practice, since 10 years ago we didn't have the leap in technology we currently have. Technological innovation is given a huge push and then slows down.

The end of this article sums it up well, just scroll down to "evolution at work"
http://www.macworld.com/article/2599505/why-old-iphones-become-sluggish-over-time.html#jump

I would argue that where we are now isn't exclusive to Apple, it's an inevitable stage of technological advancement that every product reaches, at which point we move onto something new. I suppose the whole point of this discussion is the fact Apple hasn't added that "something new" for a while now.

That being said, could we not consider Apple Pay as the new thing we'll all talk about for years to come? It's more subtle and harder to clearly define, but that shouldnt make the way it'll change our lives any less comparable to the birth of iPhone.

To be honest with you I have given much thought about the "innovation issue". Is it possible to invent/innovate on permanent basis? Is it really necessary to step out with new, revolutionary technologies on regular basis? Or is it "enough" to develop the existing, successful products, the so called Apple "ecosystem"? I think the answer is evident.

What concerns Apple Pay. The "phone wallet" is not an idea of Apple. Though they developed it further in Cupertino. No doubt. Most probably it will change your lives. Yours in the US. We still have to wait in Europe. So, I am not excited. Yet.

 

[Count Blah]

To be honest with you I have given much thought about the "innovation issue". Is it possible to invent/innovate on permanent basis? Is it really necessary to step out with new, revolutionary technologies on regular basis? Or is it "enough" to develop the existing, successful products, the so called Apple "ecosystem"? I think the answer is evident.

What concerns Apple Pay. The "phone wallet" is not an idea of Apple. Though they developed it further in Cupertino. No doubt. Most probably it will change your lives. Yours in the US. We still have to wait in Europe. So, I am not excited. Yet.

That bolded part is fine. Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, nor did they invent the Smart Phone and Tablet(though the Newton was pretty early entry into the game).

Improving the ecosystem, and current offers would be great, if Apple actually were doing such. iOS needs a revamping from the ground up. Multitasking is a joke, and many early innovations from jailbroken iOS devices are still not in iOS.

The slow pace of advances, and no recent "next big thing" is disappointing. And especially disappointing in that I have ZERO interest in a smart watch. So I have to wait an entire generation of "next big thing" to get to something I care about.

The only "innovations" that have come along recently is glued in components and thinness for the sake of thinness, at the expense of customer serviceability. BOO!!!!

 

[Ulenspiegel]

That bolded part is fine. Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, nor did they invent the Smart Phone and Tablet(though the Newton was pretty early entry into the game).

Improving the ecosystem, and current offers would be great, if Apple actually were doing such. iOS needs a revamping from the ground up. Multitasking is a joke, and many early innovations from jailbroken iOS devices are still not in iOS.

The slow pace of advances, and no recent "next big thing" is disappointing. And especially disappointing in that I have ZERO interest in a smart watch. So I have to wait an entire generation of "next big thing" to get to something I care about.

The only "innovations" that have come along recently is glued in components and thinness for the sake of thinness, at the expense of customer serviceability. BOO!!!!

In my earlier posts I have covered all the questions you have raised. And from the same point of view.
Smart Watch... well, again, it is no novelty. Same here. I don't have an intention to wear a watch that I have to charge daily. Plus I am a watch collector, so such gadgets are not a wristwatch in classical sense for me.

 

[Ledgem]

I would still take an iPhone over any other phone, but they could be so much better. Unlike your goodself, I was experiencing RAM deficiencies on my iPhone 5 and the 6+ has magnified it. A phone two years newer, and current, should not be experiencing worse tab reloads and app reloads. Also, iOS8 was released a buggy mess. Better QC/testing of the software and an extra gig of RAM would have made this latest iPhone a killer, and that's my beef.

I've experienced RAM issues on my iPad mini that I use for work. I'd say that there are four to six apps that I use regularly throughout the day, two or three of which I may frequently go between, and it seems as if shifting to the third forces one (or both) of the earlier apps to reload. If I were at home enjoying myself I'd say that it was acceptable, but when I'm trying to get work done the seconds spent waiting on a reload feel excruciating.

So it's not that I feel that 1 GB is enough. My earlier statement about how I'd love 16 GB might have been a bit facetious (I really think that would be overkill), but I don't understand the calls for Apple to put everything to 2 GB. Go to 4 GB and then I'd probably be 100% content on the RAM front.

Yet I also recognize that people like you and me probably don't represent the average iPhone or iPad user. If Apple designed for people like us, my guess is that they would either have smaller profits or need to charge more, and they probably wouldn't be able to maintain a yearly release cycle. My work needs aren't fully met by the current hardware, but my home needs are almost entirely met. It'd be nice if Apple opened the floodgates and totally blew everyone away, but if this is what they have to do in order to keep advancing and developing, then I support that. It's not like their products are inferior to the competition - we can pick and choose small points here and there where they're subjectively behind, but by many metrics (benchmarks, satisfaction surveys, etc.) they are far ahead.

As you have mentioned yourself Apple made revolution(s) in many fields till 2011. No significant steps forward since then.
You have a point: Tim Cook has to be given time. That is absolutely fair. But, don't forget at the same time that he has been number one already 3 years.

I suppose I missed most of the discussion about innovation, but for the record I'd agree that no matter the strict wording of the definition, whether something is innovative or not is subjective. I also tend to think that's why people's pessimism (which may have always existed, but which greatly magnified after Steve Jobs' death) clouds this perception.

Go to windows then! Apple has ALWAYS been about form as much as function, to look past that is to deny who they are.

I disagree with this statement, as it pertained to the valid complaint about user-serviceable parts. Have you ever opened up a PPC-era desktop Mac? I've worked with a G3, G4, and G5. The case and hardware layout was thoughtfully laid out, making it very easy to get into and out of the system. I'm comparing this experience to standard store-bought PCs in my history as well, which were a rather different experience. Apple's cases were clearly designed with an aesthetic goal, yet they were also very functional.

While it's understandable that a device like an iPhone or iPad isn't user-serviceable (few to none of the competition offers products in these categories that are user-serviceable, either, and there's a functional reason why), what Apple has been doing with their desktops and laptops makes less sense. Why does an iMac need to be razor-thin? Did the laptop line really need to switch over to soldered components, even when the overall hardware layout and casing was hardly changed? Why did the 2014 Mac Mini - which had no casing design changes - receive modifications that made getting into the system much more difficult?

Apple once designed desktop systems that were pleasing to look at and very easy to get into. Now it seems as if the design decisions are around looks and making it difficult for people to get in, while removing the reasons why they would want to. It doesn't seem as if we're gaining anything for the trade-off, either.