Scott Forstall

[Rodster]

there is very little reason to be so nostalgic about iOS 6 and Scott Forstall.

I was using my iPad 3 last night which is still running iOS 5.1.1 and it occured to me the nice touches and elements that pre iOS 7 had. Everything in the UI was where it should have been like the bookmark icon in the upper left corner which iOS 8 reverted to.

You touch anything in Safari and there was a white Halo glow to the touch. You knew it registered, no guess work. The way the folders and bookmarks slid in a tile form when moving around the bookmarks. In the UI it's easy to see the difference in colors as the colors silver, blue, white and black were used prominently and certain text was in bold. There was a certain level of flow and consistency that iOS 7/8 lack. Which is why iOS 7.1 added some of those features back.

I agree that one tends to only think of the good not bad but damn it iOS prior to iOS 7 got a lot of things right and I agree with the previous poster who said. Hardware guys should stick to hardware and software people should do what they are good at.....software.

 

[Narcaz]

@Ulenspiegel: Don't get me wrong. Personally, i wouldn't choose an industrial designer to do software engineering. And I'm not a huge fan of the iOS 8 UI. Especially iOS for iPad has its problems. The whole change was a bit to radical and in the end way to polarizing (from one extreme design to another). I think Apple did a better job with Yosemite.

But Ive has at least made some artificial restrictions go away and pushed a lot of things forward. And Apple listens more to feedback. Look at the evolution from iOS 7.0 beta to 8.2. I don't think that would be possible with Scott Forstall still in charge. And look at the iWatch interface with its new (bolder) font. So there is hope for further improvements in iOS 9.

Your Number 4 is a tricky one. What do you consider a true innovation before 2011? iPads are basically blown up iPod touches. Even under Jobs/Forstall there was not a true innovation (like the iPod/iPhone) every year.

@Rodster. You're right about consistency. Hopefully they bring a bit of that back. I just wanted to point out that people tend to glorify iOS 6 these days and forget about a lot of problems, annoying things and very ugly apps and restrictions.

 

[I7guy]

I was using my iPad 3 last night which is still running iOS 5.1.1 and it occured to me the nice touches and elements that pre iOS 7 had. Everything in the UI was where it should have been like the bookmark icon in the upper left corner which iOS 8 reverted to.

You touch anything in Safari and there was a white Halo glow to the touch. You knew it registered, no guess work. The way the folders and bookmarks slid in a tile form when moving around the bookmarks. In the UI it's easy to see the difference in colors as the colors silver, blue, white and black were used prominently and certain text was in bold. There was a certain level of flow and consistency that iOS 7/8 lack. Which is why iOS 7.1 added some of those features back.

I agree that one tends to only think of the good not bad but damn it iOS prior to iOS 7 got a lot of things right and I agree with the previous poster who said. Hardware guys should stick to hardware and software people should do what they are good at.....software.

During IBMs down days, Lou Gerstner came in and was generally credited with turning around IBM. Lou knew nothing of software or hardware coming (IIRC from Amex). Taking from this example you need leaders at the top with vision; something it appears the new apple has and the market agrees with them.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

...Taking from this example you need leaders at the top with vision; something it appears the new apple has and the market agrees with them.

Steve Jobs had a vision. Who has a vision in "new Apple" and in what does it manifest? "...and the market agrees with them". Just like that. Seems to be an ex cathedra statement.

 

[I7guy]

Steve Jobs had a vision. Who has a vision in "new Apple" and in what does it manifest? "...and the market agrees with them". Just like that. Seems to be an ex cathedra statement.

Did Steve have a vision? He certainly had a bunch of failures.

The market, with all of it's failings and attributes, is the profound implementation of a supply and demand scenario. Not an ex catherdra statement but the market likes the current management of the company and the way the company is performing. The stock market is notoriously finicky and stocks do go up and down like that, however, where apple is, is indicative of their relative standing.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Don't get me wrong. Personally, i wouldn't choose an industrial designer to do software engineering. And I'm not a huge fan of the iOS 8 UI. Especially iOS for iPad has its problems. The whole change was a bit to radical and in the end way to polarizing (from one extreme design to another).

I agree with you on all counts.

I think Apple did a better job with Yosemite.

Unfortunately I can't agree with you.

But Ive has at least made some artificial restrictions go away and pushed a lot of things forward. And Apple listens more to feedback. Look at the evolution from iOS 7.0 beta to 8.2. I don't think that would be possible with Scott Forstall still in charge. And look at the iWatch interface with its new (bolder) font. So there is hope for further improvements in iOS 9

I don't have enough informatin concerning the feedback in case of iOS. So I can not react on that. In case of OS X I am sure that feedback is not taken into account as it should be. There have been numerous bugs reported for years (SIC!) that are not fixed (weather widget losing its position after reboot, Finder window does not keep position etc. etc.)

Your Number 4 is a tricky one. What do you consider a true innovation before 2011? iPads are basically blown up iPod touches. Even under Jobs/Forstall there was not a true innovation (like the iPod/iPhone) every year.

1. Apple II (1977) (The first computer to really make it into homes, the ability to display color and graphics).
2. Macintosh (1984) (Graphical UI and mouse).
3. Apple Newton (1993) (Touch-screen PDA with handwriting recogniton, portrait and landscape mode).
4. iMac (1998) (Combined the monitor and hardware components of a computer into a single enclosure) + iMac (2009) (all-in-one aluminium, wireless keyboard and mouse, unique design)
5. iBook (1999) (Clamshell design, built-in wireless networking).
6. iTines (2001) (Pay-for-music realm). (Off-topic: I hate this software).
7. iPod (2001) (Easy navigation, 1,000 songs in 5 gigabytes of storage, 10-hour battery life, integration with iTunes).
8. OS X (2001) (elegance, stability, ease of use, simple interface, Cover Flow-style Finder, Spotlight search function, iChat instant-messaging, video conferencing software, suite of productivity tools).
9. Apple Store (2001) (New kind of retail store all over the world).
10. iLife (2003) (Combining movie, sound, photo editing and publishing applications into a single suite).
11. Mac Mini (2005) (Unique design ans size).
12. iPhone (2007) (Cell phone, iPod, web browser, touch-screen).
13. App Store (2008) (Allow developers to create applications and making them available through the store).
14. MacBook Air (2008) (World's thinnest notebook, 13.6", LED, full-sized backlit keyboard).
15. Time Capsule (2008) (Airport Extreme + harddrive - wireless backup etc.).
16. iPad (2010) (Time Magazine: one of the 50 Best Inventions of the Year 2010).

To name a few and I left out the unique touchpad, wireless keyboard, mouse and trackpad.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Did Steve have a vision? He certainly had a bunch of failures.

Read my previous post about Jobs' vision and his "failures".
(He has become THE Steve Jobs because he was visionless and had a bunch of failures heading one of the most successful companies in the world.)
I advise you to read (http://books.simonandschuster.com/Steve-Jobs/Walter-Isaacson/9781451648546)

The market, with all of it's failings and attributes, is the profound implementation of a supply and demand scenario. Not an ex catherdra statement but the market likes the current management of the company and the way the company is performing.

The market as per consumers in this context, is not it? So, consumers buy Apple products because they like the current management and how the company performs? Absolutely unorthodox approach, to say the least.

 

[One13Truck]

@Ulenspiegel: Don't get me wrong. Personally, i wouldn't choose an industrial designer to do software engineering. And I'm not a huge fan of the iOS 8 UI. Especially iOS for iPad has its problems. The whole change was a bit to radical and in the end way to polarizing (from one extreme design to another). I think Apple did a better job with Yosemite.

But Ive has at least made some artificial restrictions go away and pushed a lot of things forward. And Apple listens more to feedback. Look at the evolution from iOS 7.0 beta to 8.2. I don't think that would be possible with Scott Forstall still in charge. And look at the iWatch interface with its new (bolder) font. So there is hope for further improvements in iOS 9.

Though I disagree with the points on iOS8 and Yosemite I respect the opinions. I won't argue. It's a preference and not all of us will agree on this. But I don't speak just from nostalgia in wishing I could go back.

I have 2 old iPhones no long with cell service (I now use them more as an iPod, photo storage, and on my wifi). One uses iOS6 and the other runs iOS4. Without hesitation I'd clone them and put their iOS on my current iPhone if I could. 4 and 6 are a million times better to use and better looking than iOS 7 and 8 are.

Don't even get me started on how much better Mavericks and the OS's were than Yosemite. There's a separate thread for that so I'll keep my thoughts on that there.

 

[Zxxv]

The market, with all of it's failings and attributes, is the profound implementation of a supply and demand scenario. Not an ex catherdra statement but the market likes the current management of the company and the way the company is performing. The stock market is notoriously finicky and stocks do go up and down like that, however, where apple is, is indicative of their relative standing.

The market as per consumers in this context, is not it? So, consumers buy Apple products because they like the current management and how the company performs? Absolutely unorthodox approach, to say the least.

I'd say that could be a bad measurement to run your business by and not how I'd think Steve ran Apple. He made great products because I feel he knew and understood the situation other companies fell into when they believed the hype of the market. i.e. sony had a great bunch of products in the 80's and people then bought them based on that. Sony then turned out a loud of crap believing the market share meant the products were good. When users realised they weren't as good as the old ones and a new product from another company came along they dumped sony products and i'd argue sony has never recovered fully. Apple is in danger of doing this if they believe market share over great product design.

 

[goobot]

It's a bug ridden version that's not faster than 8.1.2. I just played with a corp iPad 2 on 6.1.3. I felt like I was using windows me.

Congratulations, you figured out that running newer software on older hardware causes a bad experience. Could you by any chance let us know how windows 7 runs on a computer from 2000? Im aching to know.

 

[tresmith]

Forstall brought discipline, focus, stability and attention to detail to the table but he kept the OS from evolving by holding back features and design.

If I had to choose, I'd take the current situation led by Ive than Forstall.

Yes we've had hiccups butiIt hasn't been too bad in my opinion.

 

[I7guy]

I'd say that could be a bad measurement to run your business by and not how I'd think Steve ran Apple. He made great products because I feel he knew and understood the situation other companies fell into when they believed the hype of the market. i.e. sony had a great bunch of products in the 80's and people then bought them based on that. Sony then turned out a loud of crap believing the market share meant the products were good. When users realised they weren't as good as the old ones and a new product from another company came along they dumped sony products and i'd argue sony has never recovered fully. Apple is in danger of doing this if they believe market share over great product design.

What goes up must come down. Sure.

But outside of this thread, and a few others, I hear nothing but positivity about apple products in the real world.

I don't know what the current management thinks, all I said is the market, as finicky as it is, is a reflection on investor thinking.

 

[Zxxv]

What goes up must come down. Sure.

But outside of this thread, and a few others, I hear nothing but positivity about apple products in the real world.

I don't know what the current management thinks, all I said is the market, as finicky as it is, is a reflection on investor thinking.

When ios changed to the new os I got nothing but wtf have they done I hate it texts. Funny but with iOS 5 I didn't look at any android phones and think I like that because ios was so different. Now I look at androids and think oh I like that because iOS is just the same.

 

[Rogifan]

So does Craig Federighi not exist? Craig Federighi is responsible for iOS engineering. According to Apple's executive bio:

Craig oversees the development of iOS, OS X and Apple's common operating system engineering teams. His teams are responsible for delivering the software at the heart of Apple's innovative products, including the user interface, applications and frameworks.

One thing I don't get is, if what Apple has done with iOS and OS X is so awful why aren't we hearing about Apple engineers and/or designers protesting or leaving? Surely sites like 9to5Mac, BGR, The Verge, Business Insider, etc. would be all over this as it would be good gossip and would generate lots of page views. So where is the insurrection inside Apple? Where are the engineers and designers going up the chain complaining? Surely if that existed it would leak (these things always do).

 

[Zxxv]

Why do people keep bringing up Ive as if Craig Federighi doesn't exist? Craig Federighi is responsible for iOS engineering. According to Apple's executive bio:

It's also probable that ios would have gone the way of ios 7/8 anyway even with Scott still there.

 

[Rogifan]

When ios changed to the new os I got nothing but wtf have they done I hate it texts. Funny but with iOS 5 I didn't look at any android phones and think I like that because ios was so different. Now I look at androids and think oh I like that because iOS is just the same.

Yeah and if Apple went back to iOS 6 style (or something completely different than current iOS) people would say they hate that. Because most people never initially like new and different as they're creatures of habit. If iOS was so bad it would be reflected in fewer sales, no? Yet Apple is selling more iPhones than it ever has in history. That tells me the dislike is exaggerated.

 

[CB1234]

Yeah and if Apple went back to iOS 6 style (or something completely different than current iOS) people would say they hate that. Because most people never initially like new and different as they're creatures of habit. If iOS was so bad it would be reflected in fewer sales, no? Yet Apple is selling more iPhones than it ever has in history. That tells me the dislike is exaggerated.

But you are forgetting that the whole world revolves around macrumors members .

If you read some of the posts, you would think most of these guys/gals were beer buddies with Scott Forstall, and he shared intimate working details of all things at apple....

Only on MR Forums, hey....

 

[I7guy]

When ios changed to the new os I got nothing but wtf have they done I hate it texts. Funny but with iOS 5 I didn't look at any android phones and think I like that because ios was so different. Now I look at androids and think oh I like that because iOS is just the same.

But the fact that some people don't like change is not indicative of the opinions of the user base.

 

[Zxxv]

But the fact that some people don't like change is not indicative of the opinions of the user base.

how do you tell the difference between someone who doesn't like change and someone who thinks the change is ****?

 

[Ledgem]

If iOS was so bad it would be reflected in fewer sales, no? Yet Apple is selling more iPhones than it ever has in history. That tells me the dislike is exaggerated.

I think you're right that the dislike is exaggerated. Apple markets themselves with the slogan that "it just works," which is essentially perfection in the realm of technology. It's very easy for people to express discontent or attempt to tear Apple down when imperfections crop up, as they invariably will.

But sales are a tricky thing. It's debatable whether Apple's quality control is worse than it used to be. We've certainly seen some big misses, but anyone who says that things like this never used to happen is likely viewing the post through the metaphorical rose-tinted glasses. Even if the quality control is going downhill, Apple still has forward momentum from its reputation thus far. That can't be sustained indefinitely if the products don't back it up, though.

The other consideration with sales is competition. Android and Windows Mobile are good, but the operating system and devices still receive varied criticisms about difficulties with usage and the user experience. So when it comes to sales figures Apple may not be perfect, but as long as they are better than their competitors by a fair amount, they don't have to be. That doesn't mean that we as the users will be satisfied with that, though. Even if Apple offered an experience that was one hundred times better than the competition, that would not be enough: we want Apple to strive for perfection, regardless of what everyone else is doing.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

how do you tell the difference between someone who doesn't like change and someone who thinks the change is ****?

Extremely good point!
These are two different categories and I am full of ears what will be the answer.

 

[I7guy]

how do you tell the difference between someone who doesn't like change and someone who thinks the change is ****?

What I probably didn't say clearly is MR is a magnet for negativity. How that translates to a percentage of the 100s of millions IOS uaers, I am not sure.

 

[One13Truck]

If iOS was so bad it would be reflected in fewer sales, no? Yet Apple is selling more iPhones than it ever has in history. That tells me the dislike is exaggerated.

Of course they are. People finally got the larger screens they've been wanting. I would also love to have either one of the new iPhones with the larger screen. Why am I holding off? I HATE iOS 8. I'm sticking with my older phone and older iOS. How many people would downgrade iOS and still buy the new phone if it was an option? If it were available the first thing I'd do with my new iPhone would be to dump iOS 8 and put in iOS 6.

As I've said. For me it's a personal preference. I'll take it looking and performing better over the added features that 7 and 8 added any day. I happen to think the Skeuomorphic design from the older iOS looks beautiful, to the point where I replaced my Yosemite icons with them and JB my iOS 7 to theme it with iOS 6. I'll take that look and feel with Mavericks and iOS6 over 7/8 and Yosemite any day.

To make it sound like there's only a few people that feel thist way is not correct. Are we a majority? No, not even close. We may be many % points below even being a minor annoyance. But we're there. At least give us options to downgrade or theme and tweak instead of being stuck with bright white, pastelly, Rainbow Bright, Lite Brite wanna be junk. And for those I've seen saying "If you don't like it go buy something different and shut up" I'll be happy to dump my iOS7 running iPhone, iOS8 running iPad, and Yosemite running Mac in the trash tonight after 30+ years of being an Apple user. Tell me when you'll give me the $ to pay for those other options and I'll start up a GoFundMe account and take all donations that want to be given.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

how do you tell the difference between someone who doesn't like change and someone who thinks the change is ****?

It is a question in general.

What I probably didn't say clearly is MR is a magnet for negativity. How that translates to a percentage of the 100s of millions IOS uaers, I am not sure.

Why do you limit your answer to Macrumors?
Is it a negativity in your eyes when some of the people don't nod out of blind loyalty to cardinal changes that are considered ***** by them?

 

[Michael Goff]

Of course they are. People finally got the larger screens they've been wanting. I would also love to have either one of the new iPhones with the larger screen. Why am I holding off? I HATE iOS 8. I'm sticking with my older phone and older iOS. How many people would downgrade iOS and still buy the new phone if it was an option? If it were available the first thing I'd do with my new iPhone would be to dump iOS 8 and put in iOS 6.

As I've said. For me it's a personal preference. I'll take it looking and performing better over the added features that 7 and 8 added any day. I happen to think the Skeuomorphic design from the older iOS looks beautiful, to the point where I replaced my Yosemite icons with them and JB my iOS 7 to theme it with iOS 6. I'll take that look and feel with Mavericks and iOS6 over 7/8 and Yosemite any day.

To make it sound like there's only a few people that feel thist way is not correct. Are we a majority? No, not even close. We may be many % points below even being a minor annoyance. But we're there. At least give us options to downgrade or theme and tweak instead of being stuck with bright white, pastelly, Rainbow Bright, Lite Brite wanna be junk. And for those I've seen saying "If you don't like it go buy something different and shut up" I'll be happy to dump my iOS7 running iPhone, iOS8 running iPad, and Yosemite running Mac in the trash tonight after 30+ years of being an Apple user. Tell me when you'll give me the $ to pay for those other options and I'll start up a GoFundMe account and take all donations that want to be given.

In other words: pay for me to change because I personally don't like something.

Good to know we're dealing with people who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.