Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

[squeakr]

^ Ok fine. I'm a web designer, front-end and sometimes back-end developer with 15 years worth of experience. I think that gives me an insight into coding things.

To my mind what Apple have done with both the calendar and music apps is well... it's crap. They've taken out features that worked perfectly well, features that at a guess a lot of people used. Picking an album from an artist with 20 or so albums used to be a simple process, now there's excessive scrolling or typing a search. Yeah, I'd want to type when I'm walking along a street and just want to play an album. Someone obviously decided it would be "kewl" to mirror the functionality of iTunes but forgot that typing on a keyboard when stationary is a different thing to trying to type whilst walking. They have borked the interface and I'd say that's an issue, whoever decided to do that frankly needs a slap.

Also, I would never take legal advice from an online forum.

I can agree that people see lots of differences in those apps and would like to know my self why they changed (could it be because of back end DB coding and efficiency concerns that these were made, or is it not possible to have them work the same way with the new back end in use, or was it just coding left out/ changed that could be added back in the future, i think this is more the case for these issues? I experience this day to day with the product I support and when the dev's changed the backend framework in the new version, older functionality had to be lost as the new api's and coding didn't support that functionality. It was an impossibility with the new framework. Customers were unhappy, but there is nothing that can be done as the framework just couldn't and didn't support it, This made it a problem and hardship for some customers, but it didn't make it a bug. It works as it had to be designed.). I don't necessarily see this functionality as an issue for me, but there is definitely a change in the functionality. I just think that changes in apps should be held on their own merit and not attributed to the OS being crap. Too many on here complain that the OS is the issue, when in reality it is the apps they are complaining mainly about. I would rather have it this way as apps can be had within the App store easily enough to gain functionality desired (the stock calendar could easily be replaced today or a week ago to get the view required), but issues within the OS will be there until the releases are updated on an as need basis, which could take some time.

I agree that there are differences with the OS, but I just don't think the OS is the reason for all the complaints, as it seems stable on all 5 of our iDevices.

 

[Am3r1ca16]

No it's fun to see people cry and complain about the new OS like every year. Lol

 

[Dented]

And what relation does that have to the idea of being able to downgrade? Having a choice to upgrade somehow implies there shouldn't be a choice to downgrade? That doesn't really see to be logically connected.

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

 

[m00min]

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

Upgrading hardware is completely different to software. Comparing the two is just silly.

When you upgrade software on your computer there's always the option to downgrade, a smartphone is just a smaller computer why the needs to prevent something that has always been allowed? Are we soon to see Apple restrict what software is allowed on macs? How is a phone any different?

 

[C DM]

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

Who said anything about being promised or having some sort of a "god given right"? Simply being able to have an option to do it over at least a longer period of time, just like one exists in the first few days of a new upgrade being available, is for the most part what is being discussed. Quite a big difference there.

As for hardware or actual physical/real life changes, a comparison to a change in the digital world is one that is just not a practical one to make or even really use for discussion. Quite a difference there as well.

 

[me7]

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

I think your comparison is silly, but I'll try to ride with it. That magical facility you speculate about... did you know that it actually exists? It's called "iTunes" and it can apply any iOS version you want to your device with the touch of a button. The thing is, it always must ask permission from Apple's servers and right now, Apple's servers are set to deny iOS6. Apple can make that magic happen with a simple setting on their servers, they just don't want to.

 

[hyhybt]

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

If you want to compare OS versions to cars, then not allowing people to go back to older versions is more nearly the equivalent of there being no such thing as a test drive. Imagine if it were forcibly made standard practice that, while you could read all you wanted about new cars, unless you had a friend who already owned one and was willing to lend it to you, there was no way to actually try them out for yourself before irrevocably turning in your old one. (Trying the OS out on a brand new device in the store isn't the same as seeing how it works with your existing hardware, apps, and usage patterns, just as driving across the dealer's parking lot isn't the same as getting out on real roads.)

 

[Dented]

Upgrading hardware is completely different to software. Comparing the two is just silly.

No, not in this case. The two go hand in hand; iPhone isn't just a device or a piece of hardware, it's a platform. That platform has been upgraded, and it can't go back.

When you upgrade software on your computer there's always the option to downgrade, a smartphone is just a smaller computer why the needs to prevent something that has always been allowed? Are we soon to see Apple restrict what software is allowed on macs? How is a phone any different?

How is the iPhone different to a Mac? Well number one, it wasn't invented 30 years ago, in the days before networking, the internet, malware, or most of the other things we now take for granted about computers. It wasn't created as some kind of hackable hobbyist machine either; it was created as a fully formed, sealed up, consumer appliance. The first iPhone couldn't even run third party apps don't forget, it was that locked down - it was an upgrade that created the App Store.

The iPhone has always had that ethos. It runs the operating system Apple provides, and no other. It's restricted. It's tied to a tightly integrated ecosystem - not just the App Store but itunes, icloud, imessage, facetime, all of which rely on security features in the OS that need to be up to date. It's connected to networks 24/7, constantly exposed to potential malware and multiple intrusion and attack vectors, and it carries all your most personal data in the most personal way possible. On top of all this it exists in a highly competitive and relatively new realm of mobile computing where the goalposts shift daily, and where having the largest userbase on the most up to date software is a massive boon to the whole platform. So it's not a mac, and it exists within a whole different set of rules to the mac, and it always has done.

 

[Dented]

Who said anything about being promised or having some sort of a "god given right"? Simply being able to have an option to do it over at least a longer period of time, just like one exists in the first few days of a new upgrade being available, is for the most part what is being discussed. Quite a big difference there.

You implied that upgrading and downgrading naturally go together in some way; they don't. Few upgrades can be rolled back easily, without some major inconvenience or disadvantage to one or more parties.

As for hardware or actual physical/real life changes, a comparison to a change in the digital world is one that is just not a practical one to make or even really use for discussion. Quite a difference there as well.

Not really. When I make the comparison to upgrading your car, say, people roll their eyes and say "that's different" because it's "hardware", but what they really mean is that when you trade in your car for another, you are making a transaction - a deal, on a real "thing" - which would be broken if you then insisted on downgrading again.

What you're all missing is that there is a transaction happening in the IOS upgrade too. Apple didn't make the update available to everyone as a kindness, they made it available because they know they need to move the platform on to survive and to keep selling new iphones, and that means updating as many old phones as possible. So they invested heavily in IOS 7, just as they invested in the versions before it, and they offered it to you as an upgrade. You weren't forced to take it, but when you did, you effectively took their money - in the form of all that software investment - and you agreed to their terms, in an entirely real and legally binding sense.

Downgrading was never part of that deal. In the same way the car dealer is under no obligation to take back the car they sold you, or to return your trade in, Apple have absolutely no reason to give you back IOS 6 and chuck away their investment.

 

[m00min]

Given all of that it still doesn't excuse Apple locking everything down. If I want to run old, insecure software on my device I should be able to do that. If Apple are worried that not enough people would upgrade maybe they aren't offering anything compelling in their updates.

An iPhone is just a platform, like OSX or windows. Dressing it up as something special is exactly what Apple want people to think, it gives them an easier path to lock everything down.

 

[Macalway]

They should have both versions

One for men
And the other one for women and girly men

Take a guess which one is which.

(Just kidding)

No seriously, it's done. Live with it

 

[Dented]

Given all of that it still doesn't excuse Apple locking everything down. If I want to run old, insecure software on my device I should be able to do that. If Apple are worried that not enough people would upgrade maybe they aren't offering anything compelling in their updates.

An iPhone is just a platform, like OSX or windows. Dressing it up as something special is exactly what Apple want people to think, it gives them an easier path to lock everything down.

But locking it down - which they have done from the start - is exactly what has made it special. It's what made the App Store such a phenomenal success right from the start, which in turn drove iPhone sales and enabled the iPad. It's also what has made one of the most popular mobile platforms, with the biggest selection of software, also one of the most safest, secure, and malware free, with some of the happiest customers.

Do you think that would still be the case if anyone could roll back - or easily stay - on any old IOS version? Do you think the iMessage network, or Facetime, iTunes etc would carry on being as safe as they are if you insisted on using "old, insecure software" on your device to access them?

 

[m00min]

Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

But locking it down - which they have done from the start - is exactly what has made it special. It's what made the App Store such a phenomenal success right from the start, which in turn drove iPhone sales and enabled the iPad. It's also what has made one of the most popular mobile platforms, with the biggest selection of software, also one of the most safest, secure, and malware free, with some of the happiest customers.

Do you think that would still be the case if anyone could roll back - or easily stay - on any old IOS version? Do you think the iMessage network, or Facetime, iTunes etc would carry on being as safe as they are if you insisted on using "old, insecure software" on your device to access them?

So if you're worried then by all means keep up with the software updates. What difference does it make to you what I run on my device?

TBH I'm glad there seems to be a bit of discontent over iOS 7, it's highlighted the issue quite well. Most people won't care about downgrading if the software updates are ok. iOS 6 had crappy maps (in some areas) and now iOS 7 is causing people problems (either UX or they just don't like the design). The annoyance would go away if Apple allowed us to use OUR DEVICES in a way we want. But their own pigheadedness is preventing that. I'm hoping that maybe they see their market share shrinking and some of their long-standing users getting annoyed and do something about it. This issue annoys me because I like my iphone, if I didn't give a crap I'd not say anything and just move to Android. I really don't want to do that though (yet) as one of the main apps I use (Evernote) doesn't have as good a version on Android.

 

[me7]

But locking it down - which they have done from the start - is exactly what has made it special. It's what made the App Store such a phenomenal success right from the start, which in turn drove iPhone sales and enabled the iPad. It's also what has made one of the most popular mobile platforms, with the biggest selection of software, also one of the most safest, secure, and malware free, with some of the happiest customers.

Do you think that would still be the case if anyone could roll back - or easily stay - on any old IOS version? Do you think the iMessage network, or Facetime, iTunes etc would carry on being as safe as they are if you insisted on using "old, insecure software" on your device to access them?

Do you seriously want to tell me that you are happy with iOS7 as it is now? It was released in a state that requires weeks, if not months of additional development until it can be considered a stable release. Only because Apple executives WANT a new version in time for the release of the new iPhone.

Locking installations of old versions down is a dangerous game. If you can make sure that your updates are free from major bugs and manage to fix the minor bugs that appear quickly, people can buy into it. With iOS7, Apple proved that they are not fit for that game. It is now a month since that update crippled my device and Apple is both, unable to fix iOS7 and unwilling to give me back iOS6. I'm only left with a buggy device.

What do I care about an ecosystem of apps if my device crashes when I try to use them? Why should I invest any money in such a platform?

 

[Dented]

Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

So if you're worried then by all means keep up with the software updates. What difference does it make to you what I run on my device?

That's the key to it I think, the thing you really don't get. It DOES matter to me and every other IOS user what os you're on. The OS is the ecosystem and the ecosystem is the device, they're inseparable. If people like you drag IOS back to IOS 6 say, and just sit there, then that splits the developers, it splits apples attention, it downgrades the whole platform for everybody.

TBH I'm glad there seems to be a bit of discontent over iOS 7, it's highlighted the issue quite well. Most people won't care about downgrading if the software updates are ok.

Most people don't care. For most people the update is ok.

----------

Do you seriously want to tell me that you are happy with iOS7 as it is now?

Yes. 100% yes, I can easily tell you that. I like it and it runs just fine for me. The new features are great. You couldn't pay me to go back to IOS 6.

This offends you because you're being affected by some particular bug or collection of bugs which gives you the impression that IOS 7 is some kind of unmitigated disaster for everybody. It isn't. It has a few bugs affecting a few people in certain situations, just like EVERY past IOS version, and those bugs will be fixed in the next month or so. That's how it goes.

 

[SusanK]

The downgrade isn't some god given right that comes with every upgrade. If you choose to upgrade your house or your car or indeed your phone in any hardware sense, that doesn't come with the automatic facility to just change your mind later, snatch back your old car and pretend it never happened.

The point is you were never promised or entitled to a downgrade when you chose the option to upgrade; those were the terms you agreed to when you chose to hit "install".

I respectfully disagree. When I buy a car I test drive it. Maker provides much printed info. I'm informed.

Apple's upgrades are a pig in a poke deal. People are unhappy. No harm in allowing user to revert to previous OS.

I'm not using new OS so no issues here. I am tired of very unhappy folks asking me to help with using new OS. Apple is not paying me to be the complaint dept.

Way too many people I know IRL are satisfied.

Apple's day of cranking out insanely great products is done. Keeping customers happy would serve them well.

 

[me7]

Yes. 100% yes, I can easily tell you that. I like it and it runs just fine for me. The new features are great. You couldn't pay me to go back to IOS 6.

This offends you because you're being affected by some particular bug or collection of bugs which gives you the impression that IOS 7 is some kind of unmitigated disaster for everybody. It isn't. It has a few bugs affecting a few people in certain situations, just like EVERY past IOS version, and those bugs will be fixed in the next month or so. That's how it goes.

I've been using iOS since version 3 and iOS7 is definitely not business as usual.

"Certain situations"? How is plain listening to music on an iPod a special case? It's the whole purpose why i bought the device in the first place. I don't do anything else than select and album, listen to it, select a new album, listen to it,... and so on. And still the device crashes all the time. This is not a "certain situation", it's a disaster.

Apart from the crashes, the new "flattened" artist view is a clusterf**k. There is no other word for it. When looking at usability mistakes in software, people often joke about how an intern probably did it. I worked as software development intern over a few summers and never would I have dreamed to program something like this.
Finding a specific album from a band with a large discography is ridiculous. It used to be something I did on the side while walking, iOS7 requires me to scroll through lists with hundreds of songs. All that on a device whose main purpose is to store and navigate up to 64GB of music. I have only 40GB filled up now and usability is already a nightmare.

 

[Dented]

Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

I respectfully disagree. When I buy a car I test drive it. Maker provides much printed info. I'm informed.

The "printed info" was all over the web, detailed videos and walkthroughs on Apple's site months before the release, the beta program producing copious reviews (both positive and negative), everything you needed to know was out there.

The test drive - that's a no, and it's always going to be a no. This is an operating system. Performing the update isn't trivial, promising the user that they can just "try it out" on their device means guaranteeing a safe round trip for all their data, and it also requires the user to actually give the new OS a fair crack and not just freak out at the change after 5 minutes and retreat permanently back to the old version, which helps nobody.

You try it in a shop, you refuse the update until you're satisfied with the feedback you heard etc.. but when you update it's a one way street and has to be. If you have issues after that with your device (which didn't show up in the shop or in the reviews etc) then those are bugs which need to be fixed, like any other bugs. Brushing them under the rug of the previous version is never the answer.

Way too many people I know IRL are satisfied.

Apple's day of cranking out insanely great products is done. Keeping customers happy would serve them well.

Let the market decide. Nothing's changed here, there were people unhappy with IOS 6, and 5 before that, you may think that crowd is bigger now, I'm not so sure. Anecdotally, most of my family and friends have I-something's, I'm "tech support" for most of them, and I've barely heard anything negative about IOS 7.

 

[Dented]

I've been using iOS since version 3 and iOS7 is definitely not business as usual.

I started with version 2 and no, of course it's not business as usual, it's the biggest root and branch shake up of the UI imaginable. After 6 servings of the same that's not a bad thing.

"Certain situations"? How is plain listening to music on an iPod a special case? It's the whole purpose why i bought the device in the first place. I don't do anything else than select and album, listen to it, select a new album, listen to it,... and so on. And still the device crashes all the time. This is not a "certain situation", it's a disaster.

So absolutely everybody with any iPod experiences these issues? Nobody running IOS 7 can listen to their music?

Or is it only some people who experience this. In certain situations.

Either way, it's a bug. Bugs happen. It will be fixed.

Apart from the crashes, the new "flattened" artist view is a clusterf**k. There is no other word for it. When looking at usability mistakes in software, people often joke about how an intern probably did it. I worked as software development intern over a few summers and never would I have dreamed to program something like this.
Finding a specific album from a band with a large discography is ridiculous. It used to be something I did on the side while walking, iOS7 requires me to scroll through lists with hundreds of songs. All that on a device whose main purpose is to store and navigate up to 64GB of music. I have only 40GB filled up now and usability is already a nightmare.

Yeah I've heard a few people not liking the artist view. The entire music app has been completely redesigned, some things aren't going to be to everyone's taste, other things will doubtless get tidied up in time. You've been using IOS since version 3, if you think it hasn't evolved over that time to address things like this then you haven't been paying attention.

 

[C DM]

You implied that upgrading and downgrading naturally go together in some way; they don't. Few upgrades can be rolled back easily, without some major inconvenience or disadvantage to one or more parties.



Not really. When I make the comparison to upgrading your car, say, people roll their eyes and say "that's different" because it's "hardware", but what they really mean is that when you trade in your car for another, you are making a transaction - a deal, on a real "thing" - which would be broken if you then insisted on downgrading again.

What you're all missing is that there is a transaction happening in the IOS upgrade too. Apple didn't make the update available to everyone as a kindness, they made it available because they know they need to move the platform on to survive and to keep selling new iphones, and that means updating as many old phones as possible. So they invested heavily in IOS 7, just as they invested in the versions before it, and they offered it to you as an upgrade. You weren't forced to take it, but when you did, you effectively took their money - in the form of all that software investment - and you agreed to their terms, in an entirely real and legally binding sense.

Downgrading was never part of that deal. In the same way the car dealer is under no obligation to take back the car they sold you, or to return your trade in, Apple have absolutely no reason to give you back IOS 6 and chuck away their investment.

I think it was you that mentioned something about upgrading being optional and then related that to downgrading not being necessary, and it was then I that pointed out that the two are unrelated. So seems like it happened the other way around.

Sorry, but real life physical things just don't compare to those in the digital world. Can you just restart/reinstall something in real life and do things over if/as needed? The two are not really comparable and trying to go down some paths to some sort of extended similarities at best is not really worthwhile and doesn't really proof anything one way or another.

The main point is that whatever marketing or progress reasons there might be to move ahead, there are other considerations that are in play as well. It's not to say that it would be something simple or easy or even necessary to provide a downgrade path, but it certainly would be a good consumer option. And, again, whatever it might mean for Apple or the industry or whatnot, discussing it from the end-consumer point of view (which is what these forums are basically are for the most part) there's really much more rationale for having the option than not having it available.

 

[me7]

I started with version 2 and no, of course it's not business as usual, it's the biggest root and branch shake up of the UI imaginable. After 6 servings of the same that's not a bad thing.

I complain about insane amounts of crashes, you act as if I'm upset about the new icons. I don't know what to say.

So absolutely everybody with any iPod experiences these issues? Nobody running IOS 7 can listen to their music?

Or is it only some people who experience this. In certain situations.

Either way, it's a bug. Bugs happen. It will be fixed.

Exactly. Until then, I want to be able to continue using iOS6. I don't see the point of using the iOS7 beta (that's how it feels at the moment). I'd like to stick with iOS6 until a version of iOS7 is released that doesn't crash all the time for me.
Am I really demanding too much? A device that doesn't crash like crazy, which could be easily achieved if Apple started signing iOS6 blobs again?

Yeah I've heard a few people not liking the artist view. The entire music app has been completely redesigned, some things aren't going to be to everyone's taste, other things will doubtless get tidied up in time. You've been using IOS since version 3, if you think it hasn't evolved over that time to address things like this then you haven't been paying attention.

So how has it evolved to address things like this? I'd like to try that solution.

 

[Dented]

I think it was you that mentioned something about upgrading being optional and then related that to downgrading not being necessary, and it was then I that pointed out that the two are unrelated. So seems like it happened the other way around.

I think we're going around in circles..

Sorry, but real life physical things just don't compare to those in the digital world. Can you just restart/reinstall something in real life and do things over if/as needed? The two are not really comparable and trying to go down some paths to some sort of extended similarities at best is not really worthwhile and doesn't really proof anything one way or another.

Of course they compare. Software isn't like TRON, it doesn't just live in some magical digital realm and write itself, it's produced by real people working in real offices and is made possible by real investment etc. When you install IOS 7 on your device you're accepting real terms in relation to your acceptance of that software; these terms have bearing, they form a deal between you and apple that makes the investment they made worthwhile.

You suggest that software is different because it's inherently reversible in some way. Well guess what, the terms you agreed to don't say that. They don't grant any right to revert. Apple don't want you to revert. Ergo you *really* can't revert.

Sure if the terms of the agreement were different then you could revert easily. And if the terms of the agreement with your car dealer were different, you could easily swap your car back too. How is that different?

 

[C DM]

I think we're going around in circles..



Of course they compare. Software isn't like TRON, it doesn't just live in some magical digital realm and write itself, it's produced by real people working in real offices and is made possible by real investment etc. When you install IOS 7 on your device you're accepting real terms in relation to your acceptance of that software; these terms have bearing, they form a deal between you and apple that makes the investment they made worthwhile.

You suggest that software is different because it's inherently reversible in some way. Well guess what, the terms you agreed to don't say that. They don't grant any right to revert. Apple don't want you to revert. Ergo you *really* can't revert.

Sure if the terms of the agreement were different then you could revert easily. And if the terms of the agreement with your car dealer were different, you could easily swap your car back too. How is that different?

None of that still relates to the main point of it all, as I mentioned it before:

Whatever marketing or progress reasons there might be to move ahead, there are other considerations that are in play as well. It's not to say that it would be something simple or easy or even necessary to provide a downgrade path, but it certainly would be a good consumer option. And, again, whatever it might mean for Apple or the industry or whatnot, discussing it from the end-consumer point of view (which is what these forums are basically are for the most part) there's really much more rationale for having the option than not having it available.

 

[Dented]

None of that still relates to the main point of it all, as I mentioned it before:

Whatever marketing or progress reasons there might be to move ahead, there are other considerations that are in play as well. It's not to say that it would be something simple or easy or even necessary to provide a downgrade path, but it certainly would be a good consumer option. And, again, whatever it might mean for Apple or the industry or whatnot, discussing it from the end-consumer point of view (which is what these forums are basically are for the most part) there's really much more rationale for having the option than not having it available.

And I still don't agree with that, as I've said various times before. I don't believe you can divorce what's best for the individual IOS user, from what's best for the IOS platform, and what Apple are doing is what's best for the platform - innovating, developing, fixing, moving forward. More or less in that order.

 

[C DM]

And I still don't agree with that, as I've said various times before. I don't believe you can divorce what's best for the individual IOS user, from what's best for the IOS platform, and what Apple are doing is what's best for the platform - innovating, developing, fixing, moving forward. More or less in that order.

The two don't have to be related. Plenty of people that can only do iOS 5 (the original iPad that a lot of people still have), or iOS 4, or iOS 3, and now even way more with 3GS phones (which is a phone that a huge number of people still use) that can only do iOS 6. None of that is destroying or delaying or even really having much of any kind of effect on Apple or anyone else. So, no, not much really would happen if people could downgrade...except that those who would want to downgrade will actually be able to downgrade. iOS, Apple, and the world will keep on going just fine, as before.