Apple is about moving forward through innovation. Everyone should be on the latest OS if their device can support it, no exceptions. If you want to choose operating system versions, I suggest you try a vendor like Microsoft who has a history of supporting that type of thing.
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Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?
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Not true dude, sorry. 93% of devices were on iOS 6 before iOS 7 was released. I don't have to sit there and worry about devices on older versions because it's a very small portion of the overall market.
If apple allowed every person to chose which OS they want you might get something more like a 70/30 split, a 60/40 split, something along those lines. That is a MUCH LARGER portion of the market that you are leaving out by not supporting both versions of iOS. By apple not allowing people to downgrade and chose a different version of iOS we can ensure that the majority of users will be on the newest OS in a short amount of time, thus I do not have to keep two versions of my app for long periods of time.
The reason innovation hasn't been stunted is because apple essentially forces users to be on the latest OS. When 93% of all users are running iOS 6, I can use iOS 6 specific API's in my app and be confident that pretty much anyone can download it. If Apple let users chose different versions of iOS we would see apps that weren't updated to the newest API's because devs would fear loosing, lets say ~35% of the market for example, by not continuing to support iOS 6.
Your argument that we already have fragmentation is flawed. A 93/7 split is NOT fragmented. You can never ensure 100% of people will be on one OS, but over 90% that's pretty damn good, and makes sure that developers can focus their efforts on the newest API's instead of supporting old software.
Burton, using your figures as hypotheticals... What kind of message might it send to Apple if less than 60% or eligible devices were on iOS 7? And how might that benefit everyone if they actually had to try to please the hundreds of millions of users, rather than Ive's romantic poetics of distillation?
If Apple can't use it's quality of product to encourage upgrades, they shouldn't resort to forcing it down our throats. If iOS 7 was less buggy, and added more options to appease the diverse users that make up the market, maybe we wouldn't care so much about downgrading at all.
If Apple can't use it's quality of product to encourage upgrades, they shouldn't resort to forcing it down our throats. If iOS 7 was less buggy, and added more options to appease the diverse users that make up the market, maybe we wouldn't care so much about downgrading at all.
They didn't force it down your throat, you didn't have to download anything. You were never FORCED to upgrade, they just don't allow you to downgrade. As a forum user you should have known of the iOS 7 "problems" as they have been posted about for months. If you didn't want to have those issues, why did you download it knowing apple has NEVER allowed you to downgrade??
I am simply saying, from a developer standpoint, it is better to not allow people to go back to a previous OS for many reasons.
Also, those numbers were just examples, it might be 75/25, or 85/15, I don't know, I'm saying it would surely be more than 93/7.
All it would do is add confusion for a lot of users, and make life more difficult for developers. I personally don't think it should be allowed. Non-fragmentation is one of the things that makes apples platform great for developers. Apparently you can't understand that, which is fine, but when a platform starts to become very fragmented, you will lose developers and you will lose innovation. Plain and simple.
I don't see Apple forcing anything on anyone, unless purchasing a new device.
As for bugginess, I haven't experienced that as well. There may be issues with messages at times (I haven't had any yet, knock on wood) but at least we can make a call and use the phone for what it was designed to do, make a call. Does no one remember the issues with the iPhone 4 and not even being able to make, receive, maintain, or complete calls when we were touching the device when it was first released? When they went to IOS6, wifi was so crippled until the patches were released.
It is always something with each new OS, but it is like the analogy I have of buying new tires. We never remember how quiet and nice the ride was of the old tires when we first got them, we only remember their performance at the end of their life. When we get new tires we compare those to the end of life tires and comment on how much better the newer tires are. With IOS7 we are doing the reverse comparisons in this case and taking a new and young OS comparing it to the older and thoroughly tested and issue resolved version.
As for bugginess, I haven't experienced that as well. There may be issues with messages at times (I haven't had any yet, knock on wood) but at least we can make a call and use the phone for what it was designed to do, make a call. Does no one remember the issues with the iPhone 4 and not even being able to make, receive, maintain, or complete calls when we were touching the device when it was first released? When they went to IOS6, wifi was so crippled until the patches were released.
It is always something with each new OS, but it is like the analogy I have of buying new tires. We never remember how quiet and nice the ride was of the old tires when we first got them, we only remember their performance at the end of their life. When we get new tires we compare those to the end of life tires and comment on how much better the newer tires are. With IOS7 we are doing the reverse comparisons in this case and taking a new and young OS comparing it to the older and thoroughly tested and issue resolved version.
At the end of the day, it is not up to Apple to help fix your mistake..
iOS 7 was announced in June. That's 4 months before release.
If anyone on this website in particular claims they did not know what the changes were and so Apple should help them as they deserve it, well it says more about yourself then Apple.
Just a thought.
iOS 7 was announced in June. That's 4 months before release.
If anyone on this website in particular claims they did not know what the changes were and so Apple should help them as they deserve it, well it says more about yourself then Apple.
Just a thought.
Exactly. This is all I want, nothing more.
How much is non-fragmentation actually worth if the latest version is buggy as hell? Usually when people use the word fragmentation, it implies that some users are missing out great features of the newest version, like if Samsung decides to not-release the new Android version for phones older than two years. In that case, users who don't have the latest version are envious of users who do have it.
With iOS7, the case is reversed. I have the latest version of iOS on my device and I'm actually envious of users who don't have it.
It's the same kind of fragmentation that is required during development of any software. As long as software is in early stages of development you don't want all users to have the latest experimental version. Most users will run on an older but stable version, while testers run experimental versions.
Sadly, iOS7 is still in such an early state and that kind of "fragmentation" is exactly what we need right now. In other words: Everyone running experimental nightly builds is not the ideal case that some people make it out to be. You think that "experimental nightly build" is too far fetched? I think not. I've used experimental nightly builds of software that were more stable and polished than iOS7 currently is.
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Maybe that's what you want, but if apple were to allow anyone to download any version of iOS, people would expect apps to work and would expect support for those apps and for iOS. Just because you are ok not having support doesn't mean everyone would be, were the option introduced.
First of all, fragmentation means having users spread across multiple versions of the software. Like having 20% of users on iOS 5, 35% of users on iOS 6 and 45% of users on iOS 7, that would be an example of fragmentation. Fragmentation is not being envious of people who have different features from you. Features has nothing to do with fragmentation. Period. Don't tell me what the word "usually" means when you have no grasp of the context nor definition of the word.
What is so buggy about iOS 7? I have been using it with not one problem for a while now. I have not had any freezes, glitches, etc. so I don't know what you are talking about.
You are envious of people on a previous version yet YOU CHOSE to upgrade. Nobody forced you to, nobody held a gun to your head. You read these forums and people have been talking about iOS 7 since June, yet you still decided to download and install on your device and now you are envious of people who didn't. You even had several days after launch while apple was still signing iOS 6 to go back if you wanted to, but instead you sit here whining and complaining like you want us to feel sorry that you made a dumb decision.
iOS was released months ago in BETA, while the rest of the users were still on iOS 6, in case you have been living under a rock. You act like apple just stuck iOS 7 on your phone with no previous releases or testing. There were multiple betas released over time before iOS 7 was released to the public a few weeks ago.
What are you afraid of? That a lot of people wont upgrade? If the OS is good enough a hefty percentage will update anyway and you don't have to worry about your two apps. But I question your assumption of 75%. How ,any iPad 1s were sold? Do you really think most of those are no longer being used? What about the 3G and 3GS? What happens with the iPad 6? Do you think everyone will just throw out their iPad 2s because we Bo know they won't get iOS 8. And that means more fragmentation.
In my family we have 1 iPad 1, 2 iPad 2 s, and an iPad 3. Only the 3 is running iOS 6. The other three are running various other versions. Each runs well and I have no intention of tossing them. Whe I buy my new iPad 5 next month I will probably give the 1 to the local children's hospital. I did that with the other 1 and I know it's not running 6. So just in my family your number don't apply.
If Apple allowed a rollback to the previous version (and get rid of the stupid badge) it would not change your business model. You can simply not support the older version. As I said, your choice.
I'm 62 years old and have been developing software for about 30 years. I probably know more about the software development cycle than you do. I know what it does (and doesn't) take to support an older version. Plus if the older iOS version was stable and your app is stable, there should be no support.
...and a lot of problems reported during the beta phase are yet to be fixed. iOS7 wasn't released because it was ready, it was released because Apple wanted a new OS for the launch of the new iPhone. Now people are stuck with buggy software because Apple wants to continue the tradition of one major revision per iPhone launch, no matter how mature the software actually is.
As for people who have no crashes, I don't know what to say. The music app on my iPod just crashed again 20 minutes ago. It does that regularly and many people repost similar problems.
No, what I'm "afraid" of is someone deciding after 8 months that they want something different so they decide to go back to iOS 6, and then they wonder why the app they were using for the past 8 months doesn't work, or why it's missing features, and so they complain and expect support for said app.
You can question my assumption of 75% all you want, I merely said it was an example of what could happen.
If you would have read my posts, iOS 6 had a 93% adoption rate. Yes that's after all of the iPad ones which couldn't be updated, and the iPhone 3G or whatever other devices lost support in iOS 6. We still had 93% adoption, so don't tell me that 75% is some unheard of number. I'm pretty sure that iOS 7 is already around 75%. So no, I don't think that iOS 8 is going to cause more fragmentation, just like iOS 6 didn't, and just like iOS 7 didn't, because apple doesn't allow people to downgrade. I don't care about your family that has saved your original apple products, the fact is most people are not keeping original iPads, and the ones that are account for a very small percent of the overall market.
Allowing a rollback would change the business model if 25%, 30% of people decided to jump around between iOS versions and expected working apps and continuous support for both. iOS 7 is a complete rewrite, and apps are completely different from those on iOS 6. It would essentially equate to maintaining two separate apps. The fact that you claim to be a software developer and have NO knowledge of the state of iOS, it's adoption rate, and the impact of fragmentation makes me think you really haven't been doing it for 30 years, but hey, I guess it's serving you well to be extremely uneducated in your "30 year business"
Not everything has to do with updating apps. How about a brand new app that I make next year where I may have a divide between iOS versions and I have to decide which version to support or decide to support both (likely hampering the iOS 7 version and removing features and new APIs to dumb it down to iOS 6 standards). You act as if every app for iOS has already been created and the version for previous iOS iterations already exists.
A nice solution would have been to have the ability to disable new flashy features, like the animation or fade. It's been done with PC gaming for years, there's normally some settings to tone down all the bells and whistles if the machine cant handle it.
An IOS7 core with a 'simple' interface option may have kept most happy. Best of all worlds, slow devices can disable what they cant handle; business users can get the pure functional use and look; cool people (kids) can have the swooshy graphics; and apple keep everyone on the same IOS
An IOS7 core with a 'simple' interface option may have kept most happy. Best of all worlds, slow devices can disable what they cant handle; business users can get the pure functional use and look; cool people (kids) can have the swooshy graphics; and apple keep everyone on the same IOS
Sorry, you don't get it and probably never will. You don't seem to be able to think from a business perspective. All you can think about is whether you might have to work more. That's fine. Your decision. Apple's (and your) strategy may work fine for phones. But for tablets it causes issues because people keep them longer. And for enterprise, well, it will fail.
I'm done wasting my time discussing this. I want to be able to roll back one iteration if my device has issues with the newest OS. If Apple refuses to allow it then I will look elsewhere. And I simply won't invest any more $$ in the Apple ecosystem because I want to limit my losses (especially iTunes purchases) if I need to jump ship. I had planned on a new 5. But now I'm rethinking my plans. My decision.
Yeah, because an entire switch to an alternate platform is easier to deal with than an OS update
People still continue trying to justify the opposite just to be argumentative. The "beauty" of online forums where you don't even have to care about what is even being discussed to jump in and argue anything and everything against the topic and the people who care about it.
Yeah, because an entire switch to an alternate platform is easier to deal with than an OS update
Well I'm invested in all the platforms. I run Windows 7/8 on my full-blown PCs, I have a couple of android tablets, my phone is a Nokia 920 (and yes i like win 8), and I just ordered a new 7" Kindle Fire. I'm pretty platform agnostic.
My point here is that I also have a lot of money invested in iTunes movies and TV shows (which don't transfer). I happen to keep my tablets for as long as they do the job for which I bought them and they continue to work. I rarely update just for the fun of it. However, when my iPad 2 started giving me constant low memory crashes due to the upgrade to iOS 6 I gave that one to my grandkids and upgraded to an iPad 3 so I've been down this path with Apple once before. It was an expensive upgrade just because my device couldn't handle the new OS. I don't know why, I tried every suggestion but something about my surfing habits (it was usually Safari crashing but some games too) it simply couldn't handle. My grandkids have no issues with it. Still runs like a champ.
I upgraded my current iPad 2 to iOS 7 when the GM came out. It didn't run well at all so I reverted the next day. I'm hoping that the OS just isn't ready for iPads. I'll just wait for the 5 to come out and see. I love the form factor of the iPad. But I'm considering not falling into that trap again. I looked at the Surface and the only thing that kept me from jumping ship when it came out was that it didn't have cellular (which I need). I'm going to look at the new Win 8 tablets this year. At least I know I can easily stay with the OS I want or upgrade if I want.
Yeah, for me, changing won't be an issue. The hardest thing is to find the right device. It's all a matter of what works best for me.
You are right, the user does not OWN the software, but since the device is locked to the software (no installing Android or Windows or a flavor of Linux on it) the manufacturer (Apple) has a responsibility to allow you to perpetually use the software they sold you a license to when you purchased the hardware from them.
Therefore, you should be able to flash the device back to factory settings (including OS) at any time during the life of the hardware. Otherwise, Apple needs to put up a huge waring indicating that this is a one way trip when you upgrade.
Many of the masses, simply see the "you have a software update" notification with no understanding of what clicking "Okay" is about to do to their hardware. How many teens do you think are running around with iPhones, iPods or iPads. How many people without tech related advanced educations? How many random tech ignorant people bought an Apple product because it looked 'cool?'
I suspect it is a lot. And many of them have been told for years, that they should always stay current on updates, as that is the safest thing to do. Now people hate devices they paid hundreds (or thousands-iPhones cost thousands to own) for a device they can't stand, and didn't knowingly choose.
Oh, and one more thought. No Mac has ever locked you out of downgrading after you upgraded the OS. They are typically limited the the shipping OS being the lowest supported, but that is because older versions don't have the drivers for the exact hardware setup. You can always drop a Mac back to the OS it arrived with.
Isn't this kind of a double speak straw man argument? You are insinuating that the masses are not knowledgeable enough to know when they should update, not knowledgeable enough to make informed decisions, yet apple owes them a responsibility to be able to downgrade. If they are not informed enough to handle one click upgrades, then how are they supposed to be able to handle the technical parts of a downgrade? For this to happen apple would need to create the same no brained one click downgrade, so thus requiring more support and testing on their part. If you can't trust apple with the upgrade how can you expect to trust them with the same downgrade.
Maybe the answer is to go back to non-upgrade able (or non-user upgrade able) devices so that the user will be perpetually available to the originally supplied OS.
I think there definitely should be a way to downgrade. I remember those "Hi I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" commercials where they ridiculed Vista. Well, now I have a Vista analogue on my phone, and I cannot even downgrade to a system maybe not so advanced and pretty but working and stable! For me, that's why I bought Apple tablet and Apple phone in the first place you didn't have to deal with hassles, issues and problems, it just worked! If bells and whistles aren't stable and reliable I say I don't need them.
There has always been hassles, issues, and problems from the start. It just might not have affected what you did with your device. There were issues from the beginning ranging from no custom sounds, no attachment issues in mail, limited music types allowed, etc. This is technology and the growing pains associated.
The same downgrade procedure if they allowed it would be the same as a clean install yet you are reluctant to perform that so why would the downgrade be any better, easier, or solve your problems as the same possibilities of issues arising and data corruption exists going back as it does going forward. If you were to be allowed to downgrade and end up with the same issues what would the complaints and excuses be then?
I would think there would be a cottage industry among developers if Apple did allow a single older iOS to remain valid and signed.
Continuing, for example- to update apps for both iOS6 and iOS7 would be profitable.
(I doubt anyone is complaining about the inability of using iOS5 on their iPhone5S.)
In a single stroke Apple provides joy for just about everyone and developers continue- if they so choose- to provide updates on their products for both sets of users.
Win/win with the only downside we as MacRumors members will need to focus our need to complain in another arena.
Continuing, for example- to update apps for both iOS6 and iOS7 would be profitable.
(I doubt anyone is complaining about the inability of using iOS5 on their iPhone5S.)
In a single stroke Apple provides joy for just about everyone and developers continue- if they so choose- to provide updates on their products for both sets of users.
Win/win with the only downside we as MacRumors members will need to focus our need to complain in another arena.
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