Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

[bflowers]

Isn't this kind of a double speak straw man argument? You are insinuating that the masses are not knowledgeable enough to know when they should update, not knowledgeable enough to make informed decisions, yet apple owes them a responsibility to be able to downgrade. If they are not informed enough to handle one click upgrades, then how are they supposed to be able to handle the technical parts of a downgrade? For this to happen apple would need to create the same no brained one click downgrade, so thus requiring more support and testing on their part. If you can't trust apple with the upgrade how can you expect to trust them with the same downgrade.

Maybe the answer is to go back to non-upgrade able (or non-user upgrade able) devices so that the user will be perpetually available to the originally supplied OS.

There are some really helpful people in Apple Stores, that would be able to downgrade your software if they could. I'm not saying my argument is perfect, simply that it is valid. Apple is marketing to the masses. They want everyone to use their iOS devices. They cannot expect them all to sign on and read tech websites to know about flaws in iOS updates.

I updated my phone. I'm okay with the update, though I think it still needs a lot of work, and that UI unification should be a priority. My wife though, isn't as content with the update. I should have made her use my phone for a few days first, before updating her. I wasn't aware of the one way upgrade when I did it, even though I tend to follow tech news.

 

[Dented]

You are right, the user does not OWN the software, but since the device is locked to the software (no installing Android or Windows or a flavor of Linux on it) the manufacturer (Apple) has a responsibility to allow you to perpetually use the software they sold you a license to when you purchased the hardware from them.

You won't find anything in any license stating or inferring that.

When you buy the device, you agree to a license on whatever software it ships with.

If you accept an update to that software, you accept new licensing terms on that software.

At no point does Apple grant you any perpetual right of access to any single version of the software.

<snip> many of them have been told for years, that they should always stay current on updates, as that is the safest thing to do.

Because it is. IOS 7 is more secure than IOS 6 and that's one of the many reasons why all these millions of permanently connected, always on devices carrying a wealth of personal data all need to be on IOS 7 as soon as possible.

Some people don't like the aesthetic. Some people will experience bugs, which in time will be fixed. None of that actually matters.

 

[squeakr]

Maybe the answer is to make the OS a paid upgrade like everything else in the world.?Apple is doing us a favor by giving this to is for free, even though they have spent tons of money developing this and are getting nothing for it as far as revenue from upgrading. People aren't generally compelled to buy a new phone because of the OS on it but the features it offers. The arguments about developing and maintaining two fractures sets Israel from Apples end as well. They make their money generally from hardware and programming sales. They could have just as easily stopped developing the OS and focused on the app development as theta is where they make their money.

Would people be willing to pay for a mobile OS? Not sure but I can say that more research and thought would go into upgrading your devices if the consumer's bottom dollar was affected. I guarantee that it could be the same easy one click upgrade but would be adopted less if the OS was a purchase option, say $20!!!

 

[Sister Owl]

Can you downgrade other smart phones ?

Yes. You can even go from Windows to Android if you like, I saw such a phone myself.

 

[clukas]

Given the gravity of changes which happened in iOS 7, I think it would be fair for Apple to provide a downgrade option for iOS 6 compatible hardware. Some users upgrade to iOS 7, not knowing what to expect.

 

[squeakr]

Yes. You can even go from Windows to Android if you like, I saw such a phone myself.

Very few devices allowed such downgrade options and of those that did, only a select few were one click options. I have had most out there and BB were the easiest to move between versions. Windows never allowed it from the manufacturer, Googles Nexus device allowed it, but most other Androids didn't allow this (you could hack it from a third party but not through the manufacturer) but would generally loose functionality on the device (how is that any different than the situation we are in now).

As for a device allowing movement from Widows to Android was not a supported function from the manufacturer, so these are moot arguments.

 

[Sister Owl]

There were issues from the beginning ranging from no custom sounds, no attachment issues in mail, limited music types allowed, etc. This is technology and the growing pains associated.

Those aren't issues, those are lack of features. Issue is when something stops working and you have to reinstall OS, losing all your settings and data.

The same downgrade procedure if they allowed it would be the same as a clean install yet you are reluctant to perform that so why would the downgrade be any better, easier, or solve your problems as the same possibilities of issues arising and data corruption exists going back as it does going forward. If you were to be allowed to downgrade and end up with the same issues what would the complaints and excuses be then?

No it wouldn't be the same, I would be able to restore my backup I did while still on iOS6, and lose less.

 

[Sister Owl]

Maybe the answer is to make the OS a paid upgrade like everything else in the world.?Apple is doing us a favor

Actually, I think that would be good. On one hand, users would more cautious and research more properly and waiting. I, for one, would still be on iOS 6 reading feedback of early adopters safely. On the other hand, Apple wouldn't roll out a half-baked system full of bugs.
And FAVOR?? Please!

"They make their money generally from hardware and programming sales."
Well, if software is bad what good is the hardware? iOS was the reason I bought iPhone.

 

[squeakr]

Those aren't issues, those are lack of features. Issue is when something stops working and you have to reinstall OS, losing all your settings and data.


No it wouldn't be the same, I would be able to restore my backup I did while still on iOS6, and lose less.

i beg to differ. No way to save or view an attachment is not a feature it is a limitation. Why would you be able to download it and not use it in any way.the same could be said for the calendar and the way the music player works. It is a feature, but everyone claims it is an OS bug.

I have seen very few true claims of losing data during this migration when data backups were taken prior to the upgrade. Generally the loss is due to the lack of preparation on the users part to create iTunes or iCloud data backups. Which would not be an OS related issue but lack of use of the back up features allowed. If you have the data backups from ios6 you should be able to extract that data and then set up again as a new device without any data loss. If you didn't prep correctly then I am sorry for the data loss incurred but as with anything risk is inherit.

 

[Sister Owl]

Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

Windows never allowed it from the manufacturer, Googles Nexus device allowed it, but most other Androids didn't allow this (you could hack it from a third party but not through the manufacturer) but would generally loose functionality on the device (how is that any different than the situation we are in now).

As for a device allowing movement from Widows to Android was not a supported function from the manufacturer, so these are moot arguments.

What do you mean "manufacturer does not allow"? I saw with my own eyes Windows (former) HTC running Android. If you mean that's a hack — OBVIOUSLY that's hack, isn't it? The question is, is there a hack to change OS on iPhone?
As for what manufacturer allows, you don't have these upgrades on Android in the first place. I tended to think it is a bad thing, now I'm not so sure.

 

[Dented]

Maybe the answer is to make the OS a paid upgrade like everything else in the world.?Apple is doing us a favor by giving this to is for free!

If they did that, a large amount of people would never stump up for the upgrade, and they would - again - be stuck maintaining multiple versions of IOS. In a years time they'd be releasing IOS 8 and a large portion of the userbase would still be sat on IOS 6. App developers would be split three ways. Security issues would mount up and require firefighting. The development of iMessage, iCloud, FaceTime and other Apple services would all be mired in multiple version support. Everything would be decided by the lowest common denominator.

It is not going to happen. It SHOULD NOT happen. IOS 7 will get its bugs fixed like all the previous versions before it, and everyone will get on with their lives using and developing for the strongest, securest, most consistent and up to date mobile platform out there. And a few people who don't like the new look will be mildly inconvenienced, and yet somehow survive.

 

[squeakr]

Actually, I think that would be good. On one hand, users would more cautious and research more properly and waiting. I, for one, would still be on iOS 6 reading feedback of early adopters safely. On the other hand, Apple wouldn't roll out a half-baked system full of bugs.
And FAVOR?? Please!

"They make their money generally from hardware and programming sales."
Well, if software is bad what good is the hardware? iOS was the reason I bought iPhone.

It is a favor. They have no obligation to ever provide an update or add features to a stable environment. They do it to please customers and as such charge nothing for it. They could develop each OS customized and specific to each device and require you to buy a new device as the only way to get wanted and newer features. Planned obsolescence. But they maintain the environment for devices as long as they are capable with new OS iterations and offer this without charge.

It just makes little sense that if the consumer is burdened with price, then it is now partially their responsibility (as you admit you would then do more research if cost was involved), but when Apple eats all the development costs they should also shoulder all of the responsibility.

As for buggy and half baked. You and most people here have no true idea what goes into software development and testing. Just because something reacts differently than you would expect does not make it a bug. It could be the inherit due to design or design limitations. Bugs are defects in the code behavior, not the user expectations and design limitations.

 

[cjmillsnun]

No, for app developer support reasons, absolutely not.

 

[squeakr]

What do you mean "manufacturer does not allow"? I saw with my own eyes Windows (former) HTC running Android. If you mean that's a hack — OBVIOUSLY that's hack, isn't it? The question is, is there a hack to change OS on iPhone?
As for what manufacturer allows, you don't have these upgrades on Android in the first place. I tended to think it is a bad thing, now I'm not so sure.

By manufacturer approved, I mean a firmware and installer provided from the devices manufacturer that allowed the changes you described to happen. Just because someone hacked the OS onto the device didn't make or great or even useable for the average user.

If you search around you will find where Linux was hacked a few years ago onto an iPhone. It worked very limited but it was done. Is that your idea of an acceptable alternative. It can be put on there so it must be good.

Most Android don't do the upgrades because the manufacturer supplied custom GUI has to be written to work with their specific hardware. Most Android manufacturers release their devices and generally never visit it again unless some grievous issue arises and then they release a patch and not an upgrade. They could focus on os upgrades but would rather focus development costs on device hardware. Apple eats this is development cost as they will gain it back in hardware and programming sales (media sales) through adding new features.

 

[Sister Owl]

i beg to differ. No way to save or view an attachment is not a feature it is a limitation. Why would you be able to download it and not use it in any way.the same could be said for the calendar and the way the music player works. It is a feature, but everyone claims it is an OS bug. .

Don't you really understand the difference? For example, first iPhone didn't have Appstore. That's a lack of feature. It may be inconvenient but that's just how it is. iPhone 5 does have an Appstore but for some unknown reason I am not able to use it anymore. THAT'S an issue, a problem.

 

[C DM]

From consumer side of things there's really no rational reason to argue against having an available feature such as this. And that's really all there's to it (again, from the consumer side of things).

 

[Sister Owl]

I have seen very few true claims of losing data during this migration when data backups were taken prior to the upgrade. Generally the loss is due to the lack of preparation on the users part to create iTunes or iCloud data backups.

My problem with iOS 7 is that I cannot sign in with my god damned Apple ID. I don't know why, everything was OK until recently.
Now, I have a backup. But if I am to do a clean reinstall of OS how can I restore my backup, that would defeat the purpose of clean install, isn't that obvious?

 

[KdParker]

If it makes perfect sense to you to release faulty updates and deny users access to the last properly working version as a remedy, so be it.

iOS7 is not a faulty update for a large majority of the users.

 

[Sister Owl]

Should Apple allow users to downgrade to ios 6?

And a few people who don't like the new look will be mildly inconvenienced, and yet somehow survive.

If that was a peak on me, I'm not talking about looks. I don't give a damn about visual design, I just don't care. All I need is a trouble-less experience.

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It is a favor. They have no obligation to ever provide an update or add features to a stable environment.

Why do they then? Who's asking them? iOS 6 was fine for me, I just don't know why ever did I need to upgrade.

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You and most people here have no true idea what goes into software development and .

Why do you say that? What do you know about me? You assume a lot

 

[Altis]

It is a favor. They have no obligation to ever provide an update or add features to a stable environment. They do it to please customers and as such charge nothing for it. They could develop each OS customized and specific to each device and require you to buy a new device as the only way to get wanted and newer features. Planned obsolescence. But they maintain the environment for devices as long as they are capable with new OS iterations and offer this without charge.

It's very obviously for App compatibility that they put so much pressure on updating as many devices as they can. That's the only argument for the arm-twist method of updating and no option to revert back.

They didn't force it down your throat, you didn't have to download anything. You were never FORCED to upgrade, they just don't allow you to downgrade. As a forum user you should have known of the iOS 7 "problems" as they have been posted about for months. If you didn't want to have those issues, why did you download it knowing apple has NEVER allowed you to downgrade??

I am simply saying, from a developer standpoint, it is better to not allow people to go back to a previous OS for many reasons.

Except that it downloads all by itself! Have you not seen the threads with people who are charged for their data because they live in remote areas? As long as there's space, "wifi" (whether or not it really is), and plugged in, it will download iOS 7 without you having the slightest clue of it. Then it drives you mental until you update, consuming your space and reserving additional space for the install. All you need to do is press that one single tap when it asks you to (which it will repeatedly) and you're off.

I may have personally known about some issues with iOS 7 because I'm here, and should have held off. But the other 90% of people who don't care or have any clue that it's about to change so much and potentially cause the device to be bug-prone? This isn't about you and I, this is about everyone.

All you can see is the extra work for developers. How's this... let people downgrade until the first major revision of iOS 7? (ie. 7.1) Those who experience bugs and have their devices ruined for them can revert back to enjoying iOS 6 as before.

As for those developers... People will be running iOS 6 anyways. If that market doesn't interest you at all, abandon your iOS 6 versions of your software and only guarantee iOS 7 support. You're going to have to support iOS 6 for a while yet anyways, and I'm sure 7.1 will be out before developers can forget about iOS 6.

Leaving the window open longer to revert does not actually negatively affect developers. And you know what? Devs are the ones getting paid for their apps. If they truly have no interest in supporting anything iOS 6, then just leave the last compatible app and move on.

The hundreds of millions of consumers with iOS devices shouldn't have to suffer through the buggy iOS 7 phase just because developers think it it's easier.

 

[squeakr]

If that was a peak on me, I'm not talking about looks. I don't give a damn about visual design, I just don't care. All I need is a trouble-less experience.

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Why do they then? Who's asking them? iOS 6 was fine for me, I just don't know why ever did I need to upgrade.

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Why do you say that? What do you know about me? You assume a lot

I know you state that it is buggy and half baked. Those aren't the statements of a true developer or tester as they wouldn't be defending the claims of the few that are inconvenienced and don't know what a true bug is versus a design limitation. If you are one and understand then you need to focus better on your craft. No one but the apple Dev's truly know what is a bug but those that are in the know, know what not to assume. Also if you were a Deb you wouldn't have so blindly jumped into this update as you have admitted to doing.

 

[SakuraSuki]

By manufacturer approved, I mean a firmware and installer provided from the devices manufacturer that allowed the changes you described to happen. Just because someone hacked the OS onto the device didn't make or great or even useable for the average user.

If you search around you will find where Linux was hacked a few years ago onto an iPhone. It worked very limited but it was done. Is that your idea of an acceptable alternative. It can be put on there so it must be good.

Most Android don't do the upgrades because the manufacturer supplied custom GUI has to be written to work with their specific hardware. Most Android manufacturers release their devices and generally never visit it again unless some grievous issue arises and then they release a patch and not an upgrade. They could focus on os upgrades but would rather focus development costs on device hardware. Apple eats this is development cost as they will gain it back in hardware and programming sales (media sales) through adding new features.

If you ever hear XDA developer, you know there are quite few custom ROM work quite well with all kinds of devices. And best of all, these ROM are completely free.


The only reason hacked Linux version didn't do well is Apple never released source code for their hardware. There is no way to write drivers for iPhone.

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Very few devices allowed such downgrade options and of those that did, only a select few were one click options. I have had most out there and BB were the easiest to move between versions. Windows never allowed it from the manufacturer, Googles Nexus device allowed it, but most other Androids didn't allow this (you could hack it from a third party but not through the manufacturer) but would generally loose functionality on the device (how is that any different than the situation we are in now).

As for a device allowing movement from Widows to Android was not a supported function from the manufacturer, so these are moot arguments.

You can easily root all Android phones out there and install custom ROM. I have done for my friends several times. The instructions are out there, you just need to search for it. Almost all Android devices I have used were rooted and flashed with pure Android ROM.

 

[squeakr]

If you ever hear XDA developer, you know there are quite few custom ROM work quite well with all kinds of devices. And best of all, these ROM are completely free.


The only reason hacked Linux version didn't do well is Apple never released source code for their hardware. There is no way to write drivers for iPhone.

Yep, I have heard of it and was a big member of its community when I had my Android devices. Still how does this site go against any of my claims about manufacturers supplied and supported versions regarding OS migrations? They are one of the third party hack sites that I referred to when I was stating that you could put the versions on there but they were hacked. None of these are officially supported or supplied roms directly from the manufacturer. Also your claims of quite well might be eaxrlt how some see ios7 working, quite well. Even with hacked roms not everything was 100 compatible or available.

Once again just because the directions are out there does not prove they are manufacturer supported. This is the key here. I could spout off about the directions are out there to downgrade ios as well. The problems is that is would have required a jail broken device, tiny umbrella, saving your ssh blobs and a few other things. I can state that it would work but that doesn't make it a manufacturer supported action. If the actions you have done are so easy then why have your friends had you do them and not down them on their own. No one needed help with an ios upgrade, but lots do tone able to root. Stop clouding the issues with straw man arguments.

 

[SakuraSuki]

Yep, I have heard of it and was a big member of its community when I had my Android devices. Still how does this site go against any of my claims about manufacturers supplied and supported versions regarding OS migrations? They are one of the third party hack sites that I referred to when I was stating that you could put the versions on there but they were hacked. None of these are officially supported or supplied roms directly from the manufacturer. Also your claims of quite well might be eaxrlt how some see ios7 working, quite well. Even with hacked roms not everything was 100 compatible or available.

Once again just because the directions are out there does not prove they are manufacturer supported. This is the key here. I could spout off about the directions are out there to downgrade ios as well. The problems is that is would have required a jail broken device, tiny umbrella, saving your ssh blobs and a few other things. I can state that it would work but that doesn't make it a manufacturer supported action. If the actions you have done are so easy then why have your friends had you do them and not down them on their own. No one needed help with an ios upgrade, but lots do tone able to root. Stop clouding the issues with straw man arguments.

You don't understand one thing. All devices manufacture releases its source code for the hardware, so there is no driver problem.

If you want go back to OS shipped with, all you need to is root the devices which is very easy to do and download older official ROM then you flash it, it is being said, the manufacture does not officially approve downgrade, but it not against either. They don't completely block your way to downgrade.

Once again you are wrong. Here is no way for you to downgrade any iOS device with A5 and above. Even if you jailbreak your device, copied your shsh blob with tiny umbrella. There is just no way to downgrade. Apple is as strict as they can and they will preventing people dowgraing at all cost.

Seriously, we are talking about downgrading, not upgrading. Also, root is very easy, all you need to do is follow the instructions or watching video on YouTube. It take you lesser than 10 minutes. You would think jailbreak is easy, but there still people ask me to jailbreak their iDevices. I am telling you, root is easy. There are people who can't do simple calculations for gods sake

 

[squeakr]

You don't understand one thing. All devices manufacture releases its source code for the hardware, so there is no driver problem.

If you want go back to OS shipped with, all you need to is root the devices which is very easy to do and download older official ROM then you flash it, it is being said, the manufacture does not officially approve downgrade, but it not against either. They don't completely block your way to downgrade.

Once again you are wrong. Here is no way for you to downgrade any iOS device with A5 and above. Even if you jailbreak your device, copied your shsh blob with tiny umbrella. There is just no way to downgrade. Apple is as strict as they can and they will preventing people dowgraing at all cost.

Seriously, we are talking about downgrading, not upgrading. Also, root is very easy, all you need to do is follow the instructions or watching video on YouTube. It take you lesser than 10 minutes. You would think jailbreak is easy, but there still people ask me to jailbreak their iDevices. I am telling you, root is easy. There are people who can't do simple calculations for gods sake

No I am not wrong here. The manufacturer doesn't supply most of the roms like you state they do, so just because it is easy and possible doesn't mean they approve of it (most of the original roms are derived from device extractions and not the manufacturer providing them) and was the whole point of my argument, so you missed everything.

Also not all manufacturers supply the code either. This is why the droid fans had so many issues with rooting and newer no approved roms that made some of their hardware, such as keyboards, not work fully and in some cases not at all and the first 4g androids had no capability to run a vanilla rom and access the 4g radios (if what you claim is fact then this would not have been an issue, yet it was).

The argument that you are defending against was solely that the manufacturer doesn't supply or approve of downgrading. You have yet to provide even one valid claim stating the otherwise. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is a supported option. Good day to you since you failed to provide even one proof otherwise (other than the few I provided originally) and are stuck in the hacker days. It is like arguing that the manufacturers support rooting and jail breaking because it can easily be done and the directions are out there on a third party site. I have done them and know it is easy but that doesn't mean it is supported by the manufacturer which was my whole original point, way to miss it.