Siri Protocol Cracked, But Unique iPhone 4S ID Requirement Hampers Distribution

[subsonix]

It works on lower end devices. Anyone not wanting it to be the case is in serious denial. It's ok that Apple is limiting it based on a marketing perspective, it's not the first time they've done this (Free Find my iPhone anyone ? ).

Can't we at least accept that there are technical resources necessary "somewhere"? For example, there needs to be x amount of servers available to process requests from y amount of devices. Now add orders of magnitude more devices to y, what happens to x?

 

[samcraig]

Can't we at least accept that there are technical resources necessary "somewhere"? For example, there needs to be x amount of servers available to process requests from y amount of devices. Now add orders of magnitude more devices to y, what happens to x?

I don't think anyone will argue Apple's servers are most likely ill-equipped to handle the load as proven by Siri's issues already.

But for people to argue that Siri itself does not work on anything or cannot work on anything but the 4S is silly.

 

[subsonix]

I don't think anyone will argue Apple's servers are most likely ill-equipped to handle the load as proven by Siri's issues already.

But for people to argue that Siri itself does not work on anything or cannot work on anything but the 4S is silly.

So? My point is what does it matter where the technical resource is, adding more recourses on the server side has a cost associated with it, a cost that Apple probably reasons customers of the cheaper models has not paid for.

 

[KnightWRX]

Can't we at least accept that there are technical resources necessary "somewhere"? For example, there needs to be x amount of servers available to process requests from y amount of devices. Now add orders of magnitude more devices to y, what happens to x?

That's not a technical limitation, that's a capacity limitation. A technical limitation would be if they couldn't upgrade capacity to fill increased demand.

If Apple had wanted to make Siri an iOS 5 feature, they could have. It works on lower end devices, they could have simply planned their server capacity accordingly, and boom, instant Siri everywhere.

They went with a 4S limited roll-out. With the way they are marketing it as a 4S feature, it stands to reason they are using it as a marketing bullet point for the iPhone 4S. Thus the reason for the limited roll out is because of a marketing issue, they felt they needed more than a camera and a SoC to sell the 4S (why ? I dunno, I don't particularly care nor find Siri useful on mine).

 

[samcraig]

So? My point is what does it matter where the technical resource is, adding more recourses on the server side has a cost associated with it, a cost that Apple probably reasons customers of the cheaper models has not paid for.

I think it's more that they needed that "one thing more" for the iPhone 4s. I am sure to get downvoted - but there seemed to be quite a bit of noise that the 4S wasn't what people were expected and that yes there were spec bumps - but nothing so uber amazing. However - Siri was a differentiator and got great press.

 

[subsonix]

That's not a technical limitation, that's a capacity limitation. A technical limitation would be if they couldn't upgrade capacity to fill increased demand.

It's just a play with words at this point IMO, by the same token they could have upgraded the CPU on the 3Gs and 4 as well. It's not impossible.

 

[KnightWRX]

It's just a play with words at this point IMO, by the same token they could have upgraded the CPU on the 3Gs and 4 as well. It's not impossible.

They did. They called it the iPhone 4S.

It's not a play on words. It's about goal posts and not moving them. Someone said there was no technical limitation. That's true. Everyone pointing server capacity is not pointing at a technical limitation.

 

[subsonix]

They did. They called it the iPhone 4S.

It's not a play on words. It's about goal posts and not moving them. Someone said there was no technical limitation. That's true. Everyone pointing server capacity is not pointing at a technical limitation.

 

[cjmillsnun]

call me a prick, a flame, a troll, whatever. I'm going to say this anyways.

all you jailbreaking lamers can gtfo of my siri service.

plz kthx bai.

I am sick and tired of this irrational attitude apple users are exhibiting towards this thing. It's like you're all entitled to every goddam software feature that apple ever releases post-purchase of your shiny iphone n (where n is an integer between 1 and infinity).

News flash for all you thick-headed users who can't wrap your brains around it- apple exists because they produce new products with new features. If they never did that- you'd never have incentive to upgrade. You'd never have incentive to buy a new product. Buying their **** is what lets them forge experiences like siri (i'm well aware the core technology was purchased. They took it and made it usable, then integrated the hell out of it into ios 5).

I paid $850 for an iphone 4s 64gb unlocked. Included in that price was the right to use siri- the right to a guaranteed "siri experience", as it were.

If you can't pony up the price for the hardware and software, then stop ****ing things up for those of us who did. I can't wait until the siri servers are overloaded with iphone xyz requests, and apple either: A) shuts them off, or b) does something irrational that only impacts paying customers.

Then i guess you'll all just sit around and go "nuah hahaha, look what apple did to all those paying fanbois! Serves them right for actually paying for something!".

-sc

qft I'm sick of entitletards.

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What I'm really hoping/wondering, is now that it's becoming more obvious to everyone what should have been obvious in the first place (that you never "Needed" a 4S to use Siri and Apple was just using it to set the new device apart), if they will actually give iPhone 4 users Siri. Once the dust settles on the 4S launches, why not let existing iPhone 4 users use Siri? At this point I'm not upgrading to a 4S and am just waiting for the 5, so I find it really annoying that they don't roll out this software upgrade to me. Same with the iPad 2.

Why should they?

Your phone does everything it did when new and more. If Apple decides to offer Siri to iPhone 4 users it should be in the form of a paid app.

 

[shandyman]

Or they didn't allow it in other devices to give themselves an extra marketing bullet point for the 4S.

It works on lower end devices. Anyone not wanting it to be the case is in serious denial. It's ok that Apple is limiting it based on a marketing perspective, it's not the first time they've done this (Free Find my iPhone anyone ? ).

I'm not in denial, i just want more substantiative evidence it works by someone actually testing it on a 3GS for 2-3 weeks of normal use as opposed to what's been done so far, which is probably 20-30 minutes of messing about. give me real world testing and i'll agree with you. How that seems to be unreasonable to the hardcore people in denial on here is beyond me, oh wait, they're in denial and worry about anything that might prove them wrong.....

Ok - go, LOL.

I am sure Apple tested it. I am sure it worked fine. I'm sure they decided that Siri was a marketing differentiator and also that servers wouldn't be able to take the load putting everyone on Siri.

You say you want more proof. I say no more proof is needed. You aren't any more right in stating that you want more than I am to say I'm already convinced. Until YOU can prove otherwise, it works. How's that for ya?

Apple supposedly also tested their antenna on the iPhone 4 in high tech labs. Nuff said.

you say no proof is needed cos you're worried you might be wrong and your confidence is shaken by my sensible and justified comments... you're "sure" it worked fine, but there's no way you know the results of apple's tests without recreating i yourself. if you're convinced on 20-30 minutes of testing, then more fool you. would you be happy with using breaks that someone had only ever tested 2 - 3 times and they had never been through proper stress testing?!?

LOL at the antenna, that's the most idiotic comment i've read from you. Yes they tested it in high tech labs, they didn't test it in the real world without it being in a case, so this flaw bypassed them, if you saw the reports, the ones out in the wild were in cases, which bypassed the flaw. no-one is perfect.

BTW, only came back to this thread cos i had subscribed to it. I'm out for good now and leave the peeps in denial to try and fight their way out a paperbag........

 

[cjmillsnun]

lets break it down.
There has been proof after proof that there is no technical reason.
It is a 100% Apple block. It has been funny watching the excuses get weaker and weaker to defend Apple from the Apple apologist squad.

It been shown minus the recording everything is done on Apples servers nothing is done on the phone. Phone records and sends recording to Apple's Siri Servers. The servers convert the audio to string, and runs the requested command and then returns the answer.

If by techical reason then it would be a 4S ID but hardware wise it is just Apple giving excuses for people to buy a 4S.

Apple do not have to give any buyer of a product features beyond those originally advertised for the product.

Yet iPhone 4 users got:-

HDR photos (introduced with iOS 4.1)
WiFi Hotspot (introduced for GSM iPhone 4s with iOS 4.3)
Notifications now in banner at top of screen (iOS 5)
iMessage (iOS 5)
Twitter Integration (iOS5)..

In fact they got every iOS 5 feature except Siri.

Weirdly enough IIRC with iPhone OS 2 original iPhones didn't get all the features that the 3G got.

With iPhone OS 3 the 3G didn't get voice control.

In other words this is not new.

 

[KnightWRX]

I'm not in denial, i just want more substantiative evidence it works by someone actually testing it on a 3GS for 2-3 weeks of normal use as opposed to what's been done so far, which is probably 20-30 minutes of messing about. give me real world testing and i'll agree with you. How that seems to be unreasonable to the hardcore people in denial on here is beyond me, oh wait, they're in denial and worry about anything that might prove them wrong.....

Denial is refusing to see the evidence before you. That's what you're doing. No one is going to provide what you ask for. Leave the goal posts where they are.

The simplest explanation is often the right one : Apple wanted an extra marketing bullet point. Simple.

 

[divinox]

I have every basis for a debate, see my comments above. you both are just in denial.

the reason why i say about regular usage is cos you can use something once or twice for messing about and it can work fine, but under regular use and also stress testing, you can see problems after constant use. It's a common thing to do in any environment from software design to the production industry, if you don't know about daily use testing or stress testing, that explains alot....

obviously you 2 cannot listen to reason and logic so on that note, i'm outta this thread until some common sense appears.....

First, there are many (in my view, more) plausible explanations for Apples non-inclusion than that performance deemed sub-par after extensive testing.

Second, i have personal experience of software-testing, have you?

Third, as no one uses Siri constantly, that use-case is quite useless. Also, as their is no concurrent processing, and each load essentially the same, behavior is extremely predictable.

Fourth, i have a masters degree in systems development (and currently work within academia as an information systems researcher).

p.s.

I'm still not arguing that Apple may not have capabilities in place to make a full roll out feasible. However, that point is moot. Nothing other than Apples decision to not include non-4S devices is hindering the inclusion of e.g. 3GS. At least, no-thing that has a technical nature.



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Can't we at least accept that there are technical resources necessary "somewhere"? For example, there needs to be x amount of servers available to process requests from y amount of devices. Now add orders of magnitude more devices to y, what happens to x?

x is scaled up accordingly. financial, not technical limitation. technically, scaling is pretty much a non-issue; one can simply buy computation as a service*.

* technically, "total computation" is capped. however, one would not be anywhere close to hitting the ceiling by allowing non 4S users to run Siri

 

[subsonix]

x is scaled up accordingly. financial, not technical limitation. technically, scaling is pretty much a non-issue; one can simply buy computation as a service*.

All, (solvable) technical limitations can be solved by the same means, add another graphics card, upgrade cpu etc.

* technically, computation is capped. however, one would not be anywhere close to hitting the ceiling by allowing non 4S users to run Siri.

Pure speculation on your part.

 

[shandyman]

Denial is refusing to see the evidence before you. That's what you're doing. No one is going to provide what you ask for. Leave the goal posts where they are.

The simplest explanation is often the right one : Apple wanted an extra marketing bullet point. Simple.

My goal posts have never moved. I only see evidence of some brief messing about with it. Not full on proper regular usage. Its one thing to make something work briefly, it's another to have it running in daily use with no problems.

Second, i have personal experience of software-testing, have you?

Third, as no one uses Siri constantly, that use-case is quite useless. Also, as their is no concurrent processing, and each load essentially the same, behavior is extremely predictable.

If you have the experience you claim, then why are you ignoring stress testing and beta testing? Would you use software that someone had only ever checked for an hour and then shipped?!

Where's your evidence that no-one uses Siri constantly? Me personally I use it on my walk to work and back to reply to texts and emails and what not and when I'm at the gym. When I talk about daily use, I mean normal daily use.

I'm not saying it won't work fine. I just want the proof that it does properly before I agree with you rather than some haphazard messing about that the deniers have blown up to be full on gospel evidence...

This is really getting absurd now...

 

[divinox]

It's just a play with words at this point IMO, by the same token they could have upgraded the CPU on the 3Gs and 4 as well. It's not impossible.

Technically, they could. However, there is little need to. And, why would they? Further, this had nothing to do with word-play. Rather, we are trying to drive the fact home that the 3GS et co. have no Siri for non-technical reasons. If Apple wanted to have it on the 3GS, they could. Hence, non-technical.

(If the 3GS would need upgraded CPU, it would no longer be the 3GS, so that point is moot - and, also, if that was the case, there would be technical reasons for not being able to run Siri on that device. there are none).

 

[subsonix]

Technically, they could. However, there is little need to. And, why would they? Further, this had nothing to do with word-play. Rather, we are trying to drive the fact home that the 3GS et co. have no Siri for non-technical reasons. If Apple wanted to have it on the 3GS, they could. Hence, non-technical.

Yes, and if Apple wanted to they could have equipped the 3Gs with an A5 and retina display. Hence, non-technical.

 

[divinox]

My goal posts have never moved. I only see evidence of some brief messing about with it. Not full on proper regular usage. Its one thing to make something work briefly, it's another to have it running in daily use with no problems.



If you have the experience you claim, then why are you ignoring stress testing and beta testing? Would you use software that someone had only ever checked for an hour and then shipped?!

Where's your evidence that no-one uses Siri constantly? Me personally I use it on my walk to work and back to reply to texts and emails and what not and when I'm at the gym. When I talk about daily use, I mean normal daily use.

I'm not saying it won't work fine. I just want the proof that it does properly before I agree with you rather than some haphazard messing about that the deniers have blown up to be full on gospel evidence...

This is really getting absurd now...

First - Would i use Siri on my phone, even if Apple hadn't tested it? Sure thing. Its non-critical. Second, i am sure that Apple did indeed test it on the 3GS, and that it worked out just fine. When Siri is launched as a service, you'll see that for yourself.

Second - to ask for evidence that no-one use Siri constantly is ridiculous. You do know the definition of the word constant, right? And, even if they were, it would not matter, as requests are managed non-concurrently - and to my knowledge - independently.

(Are you walking to work and home constantly while not at the gym? If not, what is your point? Frequently != Constantly)

As for evidence, there is plenty of evidence pointing in the direction of "it works just fine on the 3gs" and none pointing in the direction of "it does not work fine on the 3gs". Go figure.

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Yes, and if Apple wanted to they could have equipped the 3Gs with an A5 and retina display. Hence, non-technical.

Technically, that would require a time-machine, or changing the 3GS in to something it is not. (Or: stop making a fool out of yourself, its not flattering).

 

[Rodimus Prime]

the reason why i say about regular usage is cos you can use something once or twice for messing about and it can work fine, but under regular use and also stress testing, you can see problems after constant use. It's a common thing to do in any environment from software design to the production industry, if you don't know about daily use testing or stress testing, that explains alot....

obviously you 2 cannot listen to reason and logic so on that note, i'm outta this thread until some common sense appears.....

No you are the one refusing to listen to reason. The "proof" you want is impossible to get due to the fact that it is easy for Apple to block on their end (4S ID required) and it is a cake walk to determine if one is being used for multiple devices. Just see if request are coming from location distances that are impossible to travel to in that amount of time and it is happening repeatedly.


But what we do have is more and more evidance that none of the work is done on the phone. Audio to string is done on Apple's servers, The required searches done on Apple servers and then results are send back to the phone.
Proof of that is in the amount of data being sent from the phone. The fact that it is 20+kb is proof.

Since all the heavy lifting is done on Apple servers that tells us that the phone is doing next to nothing. Commands to open said app and perform said functions is nothing for the phone.
Top it off there was a Siri App before Apple disabled it that worked just fine on the 3G which is even older than the 3GS.

Multiple people have provided strong evidence that it is a 100% software block on Apple.
You need to provide some evidence for a technical limitation phone side on why the 4 and 3GS can not run Siri. You have yet to provide anything.

It has been funny watching the arguments for why only the 4S got Siri degrade. All signs point to a BS block by Apple.

 

[subsonix]

Technically, that would require a time-machine, or changing the 3GS in to something it is not. (Or: stop making a fool out of yourself, its not flattering).

I'm obviously talking about newly shipped devices. Noted, that you now resort to ad-hominem arguments (even less flattering). We are done.

 

[divinox]

All, (solvable) technical limitations can be solved by the same means, add another graphics card, upgrade cpu etc.



Pure speculation on your part.

1) A technical limitation that can be solved by technical means is, technically, not a technical limitation at all. Technically, there are no technical barriers preventing the launch of Siri to 3GS et al.

Simple as that.

2) No. Not at all. Pure logic on my part. Unless you want to make the rest of the world believe that Siri on 4S is using, what, +10% of the worlds available computational power.




Addendum:

While being aware that neither sport iOS5, how fun wouldn't it be to see someone port Siri to the original iPhone.

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I'm obviously talking about newly shipped devices. Noted, that you now resort to ad-hominem arguments (even less flattering). We are done.

If they did that, it would not be a 3GS. Or do you consider the 4S an iPhone 4? But yes, technically they could. Financially as well. What is your point? Do you even have one?

p.s. next time, watch out for that word looking like "or". It implies a conditional clause. You seem to have missed it.

----------

They did. They called it the iPhone 4S.

It's not a play on words. It's about goal posts and not moving them. Someone said there was no technical limitation. That's true. Everyone pointing server capacity is not pointing at a technical limitation.

Indeed.

 

[DarkKnightNine]

For what ? Everything is processed in the cloud. Siri can't do squat without access to the Internet. Local processing requiring a dual core processor would have made some kind of sense (or would it ? We've had Nuance dictation technology running on PCs much slower than the 4S, if not the 3GS and 4) but it's been disproven by the Siri outage of a few weeks ago (or was it last week ?).

Apple locked it to the 4S for some kind of reason. They could have made it part of iOS 5 as all iPhones have a unique identifier that could have been used for authentication and as has been shown, it runs fine off the iPhone 4 and iPhone 3GS.

Chill man, this is a discussion, not a bar brawl. No need to get pumped up and frustrated because someone has a different opinion than yours on the Internet. I own a 4S and I too agree that a Camera and a dual core SoC would have left little for Apple to market the 4S as a big upgrade.

I personally don't care about Siri, it barely works in my experience and for what it does work, some of those tasks are faster accomplished by simply using the touch screen for input. I bought the 4S for the camera and the SoC.

You make a lot of assumptions. You assume because I make a counter argument that I'm as upset as a person in a brawl and you assume you know Apple's reasoning for not including Siri on devices prior to the iPhone 4S. All I'm saying is give Apple the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they know their technology and future roadmap better than you or I. Stop acting like bratty little kids saying I want, I want, I want and wait and see what and where Apple takes this technology. It may work just as you've assumed for now, but who knows how Siri will work once Apple has perfected it. It may need more processing power, it may not. But sitting around speculating at this point is plain silly.

 

[mjtomlin]

2) Is that the Apple term for fragmentation?

"fragmentation"

The newest most over used and least understood word on the internets.

When people refer to Android fragmentation, they refer to the fact that there are several versions of Android being used on brand spanking new devices being sold today. Not only that, the latest and greatest Android can't even run on phones, only tablets.

There is only 1 version of iOS installed on all new Apple devices. Some devices may have more FEATURES, which allow Apple to charge a premium over another model.

So, having multiple/additional features does not fragment a platform, having multiple versions of the OS on the market does.

 

[mjtomlin]

lets break it down.
There has been proof after proof that there is no technical reason.
It is a 100% Apple block. It has been funny watching the excuses get weaker and weaker to defend Apple from the Apple apologist squad.

It been shown minus the recording everything is done on Apples servers nothing is done on the phone. Phone records and sends recording to Apple's Siri Servers. The servers convert the audio to string, and runs the requested command and then returns the answer.

If by techical reason then it would be a 4S ID but hardware wise it is just Apple giving excuses for people to buy a 4S.

There's no reason for excuses or to defend Apple.

It's their damned device and if they want to differentiate their newest iPhone by offering an additional feature, then why not? This is nothing new, it happens all the time with consumer goods, especially electronics. Companies produce product lines and use features as a way to differentiate those products, even if there really isn't any technical hurdle. It's just a way to sell a higher priced product and offer a line with different price points.

Furthermore, of course Apple wants its user base to upgrade to the latest and greatest... all companies want their users to do this. It allows progression and evolution without baggage drag. Let's also not forget, iOS is subsidized by hardware sales. This allows Apple to continue to offer new versions of the OS to older users.

 

[AidenShaw]

"fragmentation"

The newest most over used and least understood word on the internets.

Even more overused and misunderstood than the word "ecosystem"?

Hint: "ecosystem" is newspeak for "walled garden".