MP All Models So long, old friend.

[JoeG4]

It wasn’t a successful model because it didn’t offer the option to install a better CPU, GPU, or memory. It didn’t even have PCIe M.2 slots for NVMe SSDs. And it didn’t have them because it couldn’t; everything was integrated into a single chip.

(I imagine you already know this but) you can get full size PCI-E cards that either act as an adapter for a single m.2 card, or some will split an x16 slot into 4 x4 m.2 slots. Others split an x4 into 4 x1 slots. I'm not sure how well the apple silicon mac pro behaved with those, but they were definitely an option, and I think OWC even sold a pci-e card or two for this purpose.

But buying a $6999 tower that has similar performance to the $3000(?) model mac studio is OUCH. That's a HUGE price to pay!

And seriously, I get the argument for using thunderbolt 5, but if you want the high performance you're basically paying out the ass for it.

Put it this way, for $129 I was able to get a 2TB m.2 nvme ssd which can do 7250MB/sec read speeds. There are (pre-price-hike) SSDs that do 12GB/sec (if I remember correctly). Again I think the cheapest TB5 enclosure is $150 right now. And those do 80gbps or 10GB/sec.

We could talk about external boxes and network storage all day, but they basically gave a middle finger to anyone who wants affordable high performance storage. Either you pay A LOT and get a mac pro, or you buy some very expensive TB5 enclosures, or you just deal with whatever the mac studio gives you out-of-the-box.

And also, custom orders are usually a little more expensive. You can often get a base model mac studio for $100-500 off MSRP. The custom configurations almost never go on sale. In my case, at the time I was able to buy mine for $1700 - a larger SSD wouldn't have been $200 or $500 or whatever, it would've been $300 + that 200/500/whatever.

 

[bombardier10]

Won't that largely be a moot point after Tahoe? Obviously staying on an older version of macOS is a work around

Why do I need new versions of the operating system? I can easily keep using what I have for another five years. Then we’ll see what’s available on the computer market.
Today, the computer market is uncertain. AI solutions for consumers are unsatisfactory. A breakthrough could be some kind of special processor, like the VooDoo 3D in the 1996s 😃 There’s no need to rush here.

 

[maflynn]

Why do I need new versions of the operating system? I

That's why I said its largely a moot point if you stay with an older version.

 

[Regulus67]

It’s time for a Hackintosh because it’s currently the only alternative.

"The technical barriers aren't just challengin. They represent a fundamental shift in computer architecture that makes Intel Mac support impossible rather than merely difficult. OpenCore had a remarkable run, but Apple's transition to Apple Silicon marks the definitive end of the hackintosh era."

Quote from:

OpenCore is Dead and Apple Killed It

OpenCore is dead, or rather, it's going to be. The end of Intel support for macOS means the end of the line for OpenCore, OpenCore Legacy Patcher (OCLP), and Hackintoshes.

blog.greggant.com

 

[Regulus67]

Interesting to see the votes. Seems to be a consistent 1/3 no, and 2/3 yes. Despite more people voting.

I kind of expected the no votes to diminish, as the present/past Mac Pro owners would be more inclined to be here first, and then other users dropping in to give their opinion.
🤔

 

[teh_hunterer]

Somebody who plays WoW is obviously not gonna buy a Neo for that. Macs are non-starters for gamers anyway.

You're right, though you can totally play WoW Classic at native res at a solid 60fps, which is the only version I ever played. And current WoW can be run at 40fps with decent settings compromises.

Not good enough for me, but not impossible like the guy was claiming.

 

[avro707]

Interesting to see the votes. Seems to be a consistent 1/3 no, and 2/3 yes. Despite more people voting.

I kind of expected the no votes to diminish, as the present/past Mac Pro owners would be more inclined to be here first, and then other users dropping in to give their opinion.
🤔

IMO a lot of the discussion was just noise when talk of Mac Neo starts going back and forth. There is a whole dedicated sub-forum for that.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

Yes, I meant primarily services, but Apple does have this secret superpower called OS updates that magically transforms satisfied customers into people needing something new.

The secret superpower CONS people into THINKING they need something new.

I would have thought more Apple products like iPhone, iPad, AirPods, Apple Watch. They don't get you all at once but they do get you eventually, and the Neo is as good an entry point as it gets.

But even with getting another Mac down the road, sometimes you just need to try the entry level first before you're convinced. I started out with an entry level iPad because it was cheap. I eventually went to an Air and finally I'm on an M5 Pro with magic keyboard.

People's income changes over time. If you use a Neo at school and you like it, you might be more inclined to stay with Apple when you get a big boy laptop and other devices years later.

This right here. I run a solo IT shop in Houston, TX USA. Swing a cat and you'll hit a dozen IT dudes. So many of the staff and owners of businesses here just want the best. They'll overbuy on the hardware just so they know they won't have to hear complaints of machines feeling slow 2 years later.

I'll also add that the halo effect is real, and everyone and their dog knows the Mac Pro is and always has been the halo product. The best. The one people aspire to. The one everyone would choose for a desktop if money were no object.

...I despise the Microsoft account requirement as much as anyone. But being strongarmed into using one is not a useability issue.
...

What?!?! 😂

 

[teh_hunterer]

I'll also add that the halo effect is real, and everyone and their dog knows the Mac Pro is and always has been the halo product. The best. The one people aspire to. The one everyone would choose for a desktop if money were no object.

I agree that the Mac Pro was the one anyone would get were money no object, before Apple silicon. After Apple silicon, when you can get such a performant computer in such a small chassis like a Mac Mini, Mac Studio, or even how much performance you can get from a MacBook Pro, it's not obvious that the Mac Pro is the one everyone would want.

If someone said in 2023 you can have an M2 Ultra Mac Studio or an M2 Ultra Mac Pro, completely free, I would 100% have gone for the Studio because I don't want a giant computer if there isn't actually a reason for the computer to be giant.

 

[bombardier10]

I agree that the Mac Pro was the one anyone would get were money no object, before Apple silicon. After Apple silicon, when you can get such a performant computer in such a small chassis like a Mac Mini, Mac Studio, or even how much performance you can get from a MacBook Pro, it's not obvious that the Mac Pro is the one everyone would want.

If someone said in 2023 you can have an M2 Ultra Mac Studio or an M2 Ultra Mac Pro, completely free, I would 100% have gone for the Studio because I don't want a giant computer if there isn't actually a reason for the computer to be giant.

Do you really not have enough space for a computer in your office?
Miniaturisation is all well and good, but in the long run it benefits the corporations, not the users.
The average lifespan of Silicon computers has fallen dramatically, and that’s the point.
Today, a computer is no longer a device that lasts 10 years, but rather two or three.
Before long, we’ll be buying computing power in the cloud because it’ll be more convenient for us,
and the computer will become nothing more than a remote keyboard.
More convenient usually doesn’t mean cheaper, but rather more expensive – a fact well known
to the corporations that exploit our weaknesses 😃

 

[teh_hunterer]

Do you really not have enough space for a computer in your office?
Miniaturisation is all well and good, but in the long run it benefits the corporations, not the users.
The average lifespan of Silicon computers has fallen dramatically, and that’s the point.
Today, a computer is no longer a device that lasts 10 years, but rather two or three.
Before long, we’ll be buying computing power in the cloud because it’ll be more convenient for us,
and the computer will become nothing more than a remote keyboard.
More convenient usually doesn’t mean cheaper, but rather more expensive – a fact well known
to the corporations that exploit our weaknesses 😃

Why would I want a computer that's so heavy and takes up more space when I can have the exact same performance and lack of fan noise in a far smaller device? I'm literally never going to use the PCIe slots. It makes 0 sense. It's the same chip.

 

[Fastsavage]

Well - my Mac Pro 2019 is in for repairs and I thought geez I should sell it and my MacBook Pro M2 Pro and buy a MacBook Pro M5 Pro. I even pushed the button and then cancelled the next day...

Couldn't do it - I always wanted a Mac Pro 2019, cause they were the best and still are in some cases.
I'm sure there will still be CPU's, RAM and PCIe cards if I do need an upgrade AND I'm sure there will always be someone who will discover, with trial and error, just like for Mac Pro 4,1 and 5,1 other cards and bits that will work....

Live long and prosper my friend (PS I don't even like Star Wars)

 

[bombardier10]

Silicon type computers are not modular in design and are therefore single-use.

 

[maflynn]

I kind of expected the no votes to diminish, as the present/past Mac Pro owners would be more inclined to be here first, and then other users dropping in to give their opinion.
🤔

MacRumor member demographic, particularly in the Mac Pro forum is such that they seem ferociously pro mac pro and have defended it to the bitter end. I'm not surprised that the no votes have consistently stayed at 1/3.

Its a product of a bygone era, and truth be told, it should have been discontinued once apple silicon was announced.

 

[m1maverick]

Well - my Mac Pro 2019 is in for repairs and I thought geez I should sell it and my MacBook Pro M2 Pro and buy a MacBook Pro M5 Pro. I even pushed the button and then cancelled the next day...

Couldn't do it - I always wanted a Mac Pro 2019, cause they were the best and still are in some cases.
I'm sure there will still be CPU's, RAM and PCIe cards if I do need an upgrade AND I'm sure there will always be someone who will discover, with trial and error, just like for Mac Pro 4,1 and 5,1 other cards and bits that will work....

Live long and prosper my friend (PS I don't even like Star Wars)

I think you mean Star Trek.

 

[mukiex]

Apple was 100% right to retire the design they made, because they design they made was a piece of ****. Who's gonna spend $3,000 on a few PCIe lanes that can't actually take advantage of for the use case that 99.99% of people who want additional PCIe lanes need?

Also $3,000 for a case and PCIe lanes, and $600 for wheels is nearly violent idiocy. All in you're staring down the price of an Ultra-equipped Mac Studio, a pair of Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures, and a SECOND, Max-equipped Mac Studio.

The Apple Silicon Mac Pro was a boondoggle.

 

[mBox]

As a devoted Mac Pro user, I voted yes. It just makes business sense to what is now Apple Corp.
Maybe in later years they will come back into the fold with a more solid design that makes sense, both price and what the current state of computing will be.
It was a great run, I thought it was done prior 2013.
Currently have 4 x 2013 Mac Pro, 2 x 2019 and 2 x 2023 still chugging here.
I know I'm hoarding 🙂

 

[zephonic]

As a devoted Mac Pro user, I voted yes. It just makes business sense to what is now Apple Corp.
Maybe in later years they will come back into the fold with a more solid design that makes sense, both price and what the current state of computing will be.
It was a great run, I thought it was done prior 2013.
Currently have 4 x 2013 Mac Pro, 2 x 2019 and 2 x 2023 still chugging here.
I know I'm hoarding 🙂

You should change your user name to “MacProAsylum”!

 

[SDAVE]

Apple was 100% right to retire the design they made, because they design they made was a piece of ****. Who's gonna spend $3,000 on a few PCIe lanes that can't actually take advantage of for the use case that 99.99% of people who want additional PCIe lanes need?

Also $3,000 for a case and PCIe lanes, and $600 for wheels is nearly violent idiocy. All in you're staring down the price of an Ultra-equipped Mac Studio, a pair of Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures, and a SECOND, Max-equipped Mac Studio.

The Apple Silicon Mac Pro was a boondoggle.

Another troll. The wheels I can agree with but not the MP 2019+.

There are major studios, as many of us explained here, that are willing to pay the extra dough to have PCIe lanes for storage, professional cards, networking cards and so on. The reason they discontinued is because Apple Silicone just doesn't have enough PCIe lanes to support this market.

Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures are $2,000 each for good ones from Sonnet (with 2 cards to support, some cards are dual slot btw). So professionals don't want dangling cables everywhere, but most likely have to go this route with the Mac Studio. Also TB5 is limited to PCIe x4 and it is far away from being as fast as PCIe x16.

I don't like uninformed people.

 

[mattspace]

Thunderbolt PCIe enclosures are $2,000 each for good ones from Sonnet (with 2 cards to support, some cards are dual slot btw). So professionals don't want dangling cables everywhere, but most likely have to go this route with the Mac Studio. Also TB5 is limited to PCIe x4 and it is far away from being as fast as PCIe x16.

And every breakout box and hub has its own software, its own bugs, its own glitches.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

I suspect the average consumer doesn't store a lot of their content on their devices. Just photos/vids, some documents maybe.

To me, 8/256 seems criminally low for a current computer, but the 256GB on both my iPhone and iPad is not even half full.

I think the Neo needs to be viewed from that perspective, as the laptop (netbook!) for an iPhone user who just wants to browse, view Youtube/IG/Tiktok, buy stuff on Amazon, pay bills, and do it on a bigger display with a full-size keyboard.

It is assumed that people that want to do anything more intensive, will know what they need to accomplish that.

Somebody who plays WoW is obviously not gonna buy a Neo for that. Macs are non-starters for gamers anyway.

Here's the problem. People absolutely DO buy laptops for that. Folks have to buy what they can afford. When I started playing WoW in 2006 or whenever, I understood that it was going to be slowish and take most of the storage on a Powerbook G4. 😂. I shouldn't still be facing the same problems today. Increase the damn storage to a usable baseline.

I agree that the Mac Pro was the one anyone would get were money no object, before Apple silicon. After Apple silicon, when you can get such a performant computer in such a small chassis like a Mac Mini, Mac Studio, or even how much performance you can get from a MacBook Pro, it's not obvious that the Mac Pro is the one everyone would want.

If someone said in 2023 you can have an M2 Ultra Mac Studio or an M2 Ultra Mac Pro, completely free, I would 100% have gone for the Studio because I don't want a giant computer if there isn't actually a reason for the computer to be giant.

You're looking at this from a strange angle. Have you ever owned a Mac Pro or used one professionally for an extended period of time? I'm thinking no. The entire point of the Mac Pro is if all the other models are so performant, but you need to go that extra mile... we have something for you. It's our BEST. It's called the Mac Pro. The entire point of it is to be above and beyond the rest of the lineup. So no, I don't see the neutered MP2023 as sufficiently performant, never mind the rest of the inferior lineup.

Why would I want a computer that's so heavy and takes up more space when I can have the exact same performance and lack of fan noise in a far smaller device? I'm literally never going to use the PCIe slots. It makes 0 sense. It's the same chip.

I don't know how else to explain it to you, so this will be my final attempt. People want and need a computer that is heavy and takes up more space BECAUSE it is more performant and just as quiet as your smaller device. If you're never going to use PCIe slots, what are you doing in the Mac Pro forum. Seriously.

MacRumor member demographic, particularly in the Mac Pro forum is such that they seem ferociously pro mac pro and have defended it to the bitter end. I'm not surprised that the no votes have consistently stayed at 1/3.

Its a product of a bygone era, and truth be told, it should have been discontinued once apple silicon was announced.

Nope... the AS MP shouldn't have been a neutered turd. The people still want a fully expandable MP.

And every breakout box and hub has its own software, its own bugs, its own glitches.

And spaghetti. And wall warts. And fan noise. And random disconnects. And reduced performance. It's to be avoided whenever possible.

 

[zephonic]

Nope... the AS MP shouldn't have been a neutered turd. The people still want a fully expandable MP.

I understand your frustration, but like I said earlier, back in 2017 the MacPro constituted single-digit percentage of Mac sales. I doubt the it was much higher for 7,1 and I'm sure it was next to nothing for the M2U MacPro.

Apple Silicon just took a direction that was diametrically opposed to the design philosophy of a configurable tower like the Mac Pro.

The Mac Pro made sense in the Intel era when workstation/server CPU's could be bought off the shelf, but its sales numbers simply did not justify the cost of modifying AS for that particular use case.

 

[teh_hunterer]

The entire point of the Mac Pro is if all the other models are so performant, but you need to go that extra mile... we have something for you. It's our BEST. It's called the Mac Pro. The entire point of it is to be above and beyond the rest of the lineup. So no, I don't see the neutered MP2023 as sufficiently performant, never mind the rest of the inferior lineup.

That's got very little to do with what I said. You said the Mac Pro is what everyone and their dog knows is the best and would get if they had unlimited spending money. But since Apple silicon, no it isn't.

It doesn't perform better than a computer that's nearly 15 times smaller with the same chip. People said "why does this thing exist? Wouldn't you just get the Studio" not "oh I'd sure love to get one if I had the money".

You keep flip flopping between "only pros understand, and if you're not a pro then get out of here" but also trying to claim that normal users know the Pro is the best. Which is it? Only pros, or do you want to keep talking about what normal people think?

I don't know how else to explain it to you, so this will be my final attempt. People want and need a computer that is heavy and takes up more space BECAUSE it is more performant and just as quiet as your smaller device. If you're never going to use PCIe slots, what are you doing in the Mac Pro forum. Seriously.

Lol, the guy who only selectively replies, trying to posture as someone who's trying to explain things...

Let's be specific instead of taking things out of context: I was responding to someone who said, in the context of 2023 Mac Pro vs 2023 Mac Studio, don't you have enough space to get a Mac Pro?

In that context, the majority of people would still go the Studio even if they had unlimited money for the Pro. If the performance is the same, and you're not going to use the PCIe slots, obviously a lot of people aren't going to even want a 14.5x bigger machine for basically no reason.

Don't act like using PCIe slots is some sort of badge of professionalism and honour either. Even Mac power users who were using PCIe devices 5 years ago have less need for them now. If you can roll things into the SoC that people used to use PCIe for, then it becomes less important. Big GPU on the chip, 10gb Ethernet built in, media engines instead of afterburner cards, add in sound or interface cards transitioning to external USB/Thunderbolt.

As for wanting a big computer for more performance, you're missing the fact that Apple literally couldn't make a chip big enough and hungry enough to require anything bigger than a Studio's cooling system.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

Miniaturisation is all well and good, but in the long run it benefits the corporations, not the users.
The average lifespan of Silicon computers has fallen dramatically, and that’s the point.
Today, a computer is no longer a device that lasts 10 years, but rather two or three.

This is complete in total nonsense.
If anything, it’s easier to buy a computer today and use it for 10 years plus than at any other point in history.
Buy a PowerMac G3 in 1997 and by 2007 it wasn’t just dated, but hilariously dated.
Long unsupported by Apple and not just a joke compared to the Intel computers of the day, but a joke even compared to the G4s and G5s.
Same if you purchased a 2007 MacPro, by 2017 you’d still be stuck on Lion, with your last security update coming about five years previous, and even the long out of date 2009 or 2010 MacPro in a significantly better support position.

Today, pretty much every Apple product is at least guaranteed nine years of security updates, if not nine years of full software updates, and machines from 2020 are still running like brand new halfway through 2026 and likely to be supported in some capacity well into the 2030s.
The iPad Air2, not even a laptop, not even a tower, but an iPad from 2014, has received four security updates in the last year. Again, from 2014. 12 years ago. Can you name any computer from 1997 that was being supported absolutely no questions asked, no modifications needed in 2009? You can’t.

Also what are these machines you refer to that are only lasting two to three years, specifically from Apple?

Today, a computer is no longer a device that lasts 10 years, but rather two or three.
Seriously,I would really like to know exactly which computers you are referring to here. As far as I can tell, the last time Apple only supported a computer with the latest version of software for only three years was… The early 2008 MacBook Air. From 18 years ago. Not exactly current, new, modern or relevant.

 

[Arctic Moose]

I think you mean