MP All Models So long, old friend.

[deconstruct60]

Well, the whole tech industry will catch a cold if/when that happens but ARM has the advantage of not being in the chip fabrication business - they'll lose license revenue and royalties but won't be left with unsold stock and idle production capacity on their hands... (well, they're now dipping a toe in making their own ARM chips but so far that's only risking a toe...).

Arm is jumping into the chip selling business.

Arm AGI CPU Launched Establishing Arm as a Silicon Provider

At its Arm Everywhere event today, Arm announced its new Arm AGI CPU designed to power agentic AI workflows in a major shift for the company

www.servethehome.com

Their IPO and stock valuation they have can't be rationally justified on just licensing. They have to sell more stuff. As Arm start compete with its licensees , there is a good chance they will loose some fraction of them. (e.g. move to RISC-V. Stop buying new licenses ( freeze at architecture license version), etc. If x86 "sucked less" that too would be an exit path. ) . Sofbank still has majority shares and bought Ampere . That too may get merged into Arm ( and Softbank will want their Ampere acquisition costs reimpbursed. So more debt load for Arm).

Qualcomm already complained in the Nuvia trail that Arm is on the same path for some mobile chips also. (just buy Arm silicon at higher price).

In a fast growing ecosystem, some licensees won't mind competition. In a rapidly shrinking one , there probably will be more that do. Arm was already loosing folks to RISC-V before AI in the embedded space.

The whole tech industry would 'catch a cold' but the default in the PC and server space isn't Arm yet. If folks retreat back to the old standards than Arm isn't it. And in the embedded space, it was getting close to the tipping point also before this recent run up for 'new need' embedded (certainly anything coming out of China).

 

[MRMSFC]

The crabs-in-a-bucket mentality around here is creating a real miasma. It's very simple, for you non Mac Pro Folks:

Apple has a package they can scale a bit to fit laptops and desktops, low end to mid-range. This satisfies let's say 95% of their customer base computing needs. But there are always people who need or want more.

If you can stuff x amount of computing power into a compact, light, energy efficient and aesthetically pleasing package, HOW MUCH MORE can you stuff into a bigger box??? People buy them. People buy S Class Mercedes, they buy 911 turbos. They're not going to be your biggest volume sellers, but they NEED to exist.

The halo effect is absolutely real, and the Mac Pro has ALWAYS been the halo product. If you watch the WWDC 2019 intro and can't comprehend this, please reply with "can't comprehend" so I can block you.

Dunno about that one, chief. From what I remember people were just clowning on the price, and the wheels being sold separately.

Even in this subforum people were outraged that it didn’t start at 3 grand, but 6, swore up and down that it was a dud product and that they, “the loyal Mac Pro users ” had already switched to PC and that was a good decision.

It’s funny to see people now praising the 7,1 in retrospect, and cursing Apple for killing off their Intel box.

 

[theluggage]

If you can stuff x amount of computing power into a compact, light, energy efficient and aesthetically pleasing package, HOW MUCH MORE can you stuff into a bigger box???

NONE - unless you design and make a whole new system-on-a-chip die to run it just for your "big box" - which also involves throwing away the integrated CPU/GPU/NPU/Unified RAM architecture that makes your "light, energy efficient and aesthetically pleasing packages" (which also make most of your money) so special. Existing Apple Silicon SoCs simply can't drive the sort of high-end, multiple discrete GPUs using 16 PCIe lanes each that a Xeon or Threadripper system can.

Producing a Mac Pro big box'o'slots made sense when Apple were just buying Intel CPUs and AMD GPUs produced for the far larger PC compatible market. It ceased to make sense when Apple went down the Apple Silicon route which was optimised for low power, compact systems with virtually everything you might want to upgrade built into the system-on-a-chip.

The 2023 Mac Pro was a kludge that used the surplus SSD interface on the M2 Ultra to provide enough PCIe lanes to drive specialist I/O cards - mainly used by A/V pros - and tide them over until they moved to a Thunderbolt-based system.

People buy S Class Mercedes, they buy 911 turbos. They're not going to be your biggest volume sellers, but they NEED to exist.

Sure, because the economics of making small batches of large engines for luxury cars that sell for 6 digits of dollars are EXACTLY the same as making small batches of custom CPUs for "workstations" that sell for 4-5 digits of dollars... and if someone needs to conspicuously display their status with a Bugatti in the car park of the country club, they're not going to lug a Mac Pro round the golf course when a hand-stitched waygu leather iPhone case from Gucci is easier to carry.

People drool over high-end sports cards and occasionally buy them to take the kids to school. Most people have zero interest in tower computers at the moment, when cute laptops and SFFs are available. The flagship Mac is more likely the MacBook Pro (the latest version of which is claiming records for performance - valid or not, it's good publicity).

The halo effect is absolutely real, and the Mac Pro has ALWAYS been the halo product.

You can keep on saying that as much as you like & block people who disagree, but the iPod and iPhone will still be the widely cited example of the halo effect in technology. The only requirement for a "halo effect" is that it impresses people - only a handful of tech nerds will get impressed by a tower system that looks like grandad's computer from 1990 and is x% faster than the cool looking ultra-slim laptop.

If you watch the WWDC 2019 intro and can't comprehend this, please reply with "can't comprehend" so I can block you.

So why is the supposed "halo product" buried in the middle section of the presentation, with devices and AI at the front and AR for iDevices at the end? Also WWDC audience != "most people".

 

[m1maverick]

It’s funny to see people now praising the 7,1 in retrospect, and cursing Apple for killing off their Intel box.

I remember it differently. Aside from the value proposition I don't recall many people being critical of the 7,1. Everything I read about it was praise.

 

[deconstruct60]

I remember it differently. Aside from the value proposition I don't recall many people being critical of the 7,1. Everything I read about it was praise.

Selective memory and sampling. Pulling some threads out of the history archive just in this specific forum.
[ If go to 'front page' macrumors articles it is worse. ]


Dropping the 'value proposition' is a huge filter that skews sampling. Here is a poll in October 2019. (low aggregate sample count but it is being put forward. )

How much budget are you saving for the nnMP?

Just out of curiosity, hoch much budget are you guys saving for the new Mac Pro? And maybe you could comment, what kind of expansion or model you expect to buy for that money. I should add - the price including VAT business tax that business customers will get back. I kinda expect that the CPU...

forums.macrumors.com

2nd biggest polling category is .... " F**k these prices, I‘m sticking with my 6.1 " . Probably a bit of a proxy there and '6,1' means that model and lower. More folks were 'anti price' than were in favor of the entry prices ($6,000). That is not a good long term sign.

This tread tried to discuss the Mac Pro 2019 while avoiding the topic of price. (of course, it didn't take very many posts for prices to creep into the thread. 🙂 ) [ Familiar echo there of Mac Pro 2023 same general question of whether it is 'too niche'. ]

Initial 'look poll'

POLL: The NEW Cheese Grater Mac Pro (nCMP). Hot or Not?

Updated: Cool Johnny Ive video from here: https://www.macobserver.com/cool-stuff-found/wwdc-2019-the-not-shown-jony-ive-new-mac-pro-video/ What do you guys think of the (I dub thee) new Cheesegrater Mac Pro (nCMP). I'm freaking out with glee! What do you like or not like about it?

forums.macrumors.com

"Not hot " at 20%.

Is the new Mac Pro too niche?

I know there's a lot of discussion going on regarding the price and I don't want to debate that here, but rather regarding who exactly is this Mac Pro intended to be for? Back in the day, the power mac (pre-intel) and even the early Mac Pros were sold to consumers, hobbyists, prosumers and full...

forums.macrumors.com

for example, from post 171 there.
"... I think both of you are completely missing the point of why people are upset. No one is saying it's not good enough. Quite the opposite, people are saying it's too good, but the price point doesn't feel justifiable to them. To some extent, I can sympathise. ..."

Is the new Mac Pro too niche?

I think both of you are completely missing the point of why people are upset. No one is saying it's not good enough. Quite the opposite, people are saying it's too good, but the price point doesn't feel justifiable to them. To some extent, I can sympathise.

forums.macrumors.com

[ there is still a 'really wanted a xMac ... in the older Power Mac sub $2K range zone. Essentially complaining it is a the 'wrong' product spec. focus. ]


What more likely recalling is the more self congratulating threads of folks who did purchase it. (This sampling will get almost none of the folks who walked away. So it is not representative of the classic Mac Pro user base.) Examples.

I'm thrilled and completely satisfied with my new 2019 Mac Pro 7,1

Subject: I'm thrilled and completely satisfied with my new 2019 Mac Pro 7,1 My subject line says it all for me. This MP7,1 has met all my expectations and beyond. I've owned all the Mac Pro models with my first selection dating back to the PowerMac G3 and the first Bondi Blue iMac in 1998...

forums.macrumors.com

For those having received their MP7,1 what are your thoughts - good or bad ?

Subject: For those having received their MP7,1 what are your thoughts - good or bad ? We have yet to receive our 16-core, 1x Afterburner, 1x Radeon Veg II, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, and Wheeled MP7,1 and expect to be impressed with it when we start using it. We will immediately upgrade it as...

forums.macrumors.com

"mild" issues with what the Apple I/O card 'should have been'.

PCIe Expansion Cards - What are you adding?

Hey Guys, I'm curious what expansion cards people are planning on using? I'm thinking of adding a decent sound card, some internal storage, and some USB A expansion. What are you folks adding to your machine?

forums.macrumors.com

Also folks rumbling about stuff removed.

Will you miss the optical drive?

Streaming music and movies isn't for everybody. I prefer the optimum quality of CDs and Blu-rays so I'm gonna miss it.

forums.macrumors.com

Similar tossing price out the window makes the Promise 4Ri look 'great' when a substantial number of folks just aren't going to pay that overhead.

On the day of the announcement.... (waiting for next one).

Waiting for MacPro 8,1

Just because this is MacRumors Mac Pro Forum. I say: Same as 7,1 Half the cost Non-ugly Thanks

forums.macrumors.com

the PCI-e v3 backbone when v4 was rolling out on the AMD Threadripper alernatives popped up in several places.

Not a specific thread but there was a 'anti T2' crowd sprinkled in various thread. (not going to use that Apple SSD).

Didn't link but as usual quirks and bugs in macOS in the first couple of months with some devices. ( wireless keyboards. )

 

[maflynn]

The halo effect is absolutely real, and the Mac Pro has ALWAYS been the halo product

It stopped being a halo product when apple released the trash can Mac Pro:

 

[mateo14]

Well, I'm disappointed that Apple discontinued the Mac Pro, but there's nothing that we can do about it. I'm also a Linux user, which means this decision is not so painful for me.

I started saving money on the Mac Pro 7,1 because macOS Tahoe will be a good option for me until they stop supporting Firefox for this system. Later, I will switch to the M2 Mac Pro, which still has some advantages.

I won't feel comfortable with Macs that use M chips because I can't swap parts when I need them. In December, my GeForce in the Mac Pro 2012 started to have issues with high temperatures. I ordered a second one from eBay, and it works great. It's so simple, elegant, and satisfying when I own a machine that I use. Additionally, it's fun using different versions of Linux and Mac on the Intel Macs.

I always believed that I needed a case for a computer because I don't want to clutter my desk with cables. Steve Jobs mentioned something similar during his presentation. I already have six different machines on my two desks. I can't imagine having a single Mac Mini with 5 connected SSDs on my desk. I guess I will start worrying when Mozilla stops supporting Firefox in Tahoe.

Next, I have some machines that I use to play games released before 2012, and Apple's decision doesn't affect me in this area. However, I can imagine a situation when users need to run older software/games on M1 Macs in the future. It will be a problematic option for the retro Mac community. We will be dealing with Macs that can't be modernized and have faulty parts. The worst part is that some modern Macs are tied to their motherboards, so users can't replace them.

Are there any workarounds for replacing the proprietary motherboard for these more modern Macs?

Now, I can purchase old Intel Macs from eBay and replace the hard drive/SSD, RAM, or graphics card if it's faulty. Of course, some models allow replacing only the SSD or RAM, but it's better than nothing. It was amazing when we could maximize RAM, add an SSD, and add modern graphics cards in new Mac computers. It was a completely different machine after a few cheap upgrades that we could use for many years.

Lastly, I want to mention that I'm surprised that Apple couldn't solve the problems that allowed them to build Macs with replaceable parts. They mentioned something about performance issues with RAM many years ago.

 

[m1maverick]

Selective memory and sampling. Pulling some threads out of the history archive just in this specific forum.
[ If go to 'front page' macrumors articles it is worse. ]

I stopped reading what you wrote when it became obvious you must have missed where I wrote:

"Aside from the value proposition..."

What I did read (i.e. skimmed) suggested you missed this part.

 

[mateo14]

I want to talk about something different. We have these M Macs that Apple doesn't allow us to upgrade hardware or replace motherboards. I don't know anyone with skills like Dosdude1 in my area, and I don't know how to use a soldering iron to fix some issues in my Mac computers.

Do you think we will see some third-party companies in the future that allow us to replace the storage, motherboard, or fix problems with graphics chips in M Macs?

 

[m1maverick]

Do you think we will see some third-party companies in the future that allow us to replace the storage, motherboard, or fix problems with graphics chips in M Macs?

Unfortunately I think that will be the rare exception than the norm. Todays Macs are so tightly integrated that it, to me, doesn’t make sense to expend that effort unless it’s for the challenge of being able to do so.

As a retro enthusiast I am disappointed these systems require extraordinary effort to work on making it unlikely it will see the same retro community support the older models do. They’ll essentially become eco waste if they fail

 

[MRMSFC]

"Aside from the value proposition..."

That’s just it though. 90% of the responses basically amounted to “this is too expensive for what you get, **** Apple, I’m buying a PC!”

And strictly speaking if you wanted better bang for your buck, you could get an equivalent or better PC for the asking price.

And if money was no object, then you could get something far more powerful than even the top spec.

If I can be honest, I don’t think any “loyal Mac Pro” buyers on here want a Mac at all. I think you guys just want a PC.

 

[mateo14]

Unfortunately I think that will be the rare exception than the norm. Todays Macs are so tightly integrated that it, to me, doesn’t make sense to expend that effort unless it’s for the challenge of being able to do so.

One company that could replace storage or motherboards in M Macs in Europe would be enough for me, even if I had to send a computer to a different country.

As a retro enthusiast I am disappointed these systems require extraordinary effort to work on making it unlikely it will see the same retro community support the older models do. They’ll essentially become eco waste if they fail

It's scary when I think about it.
I'm glad that I'm more interested in Mac OS X 10.6 than in more modern versions of macOS for games.

What are the most common issues with motherboards in M Macs?

If I can be honest, I don’t think any “loyal Mac Pro” buyers on here want a Mac at all. I think you guys just want a PC.

I shared my opinion earlier, and I know that many users presented many other arguments about the Mac Pro. I don't see anything surprising that some users have expectations about their favorite machines, when Apple's attitude changed so drastically in 2020.

In my view, some users want more options when they buy computers from Apple, and I don't see anything wrong if one particular product is different. Apple doesn't want to fill this gap anymore, and it's problematic.

 

[m1maverick]

That’s just it though. 90% of the responses basically amounted to “this is too expensive for what you get, **** Apple, I’m buying a PC!”

What does "value proposition" mean to you?

 

[MRMSFC]

What does "value proposition" mean to you?

This isn’t about what I want, I’m trying to find out what the supposed Mac Pro loyalists want.

Because in just about every thread I see it’s just describing a tower with pci slots and an x86 processor that can run windows and linux, that’s compatible with the best NVidia gpus.

That just leaves the only differentiator being MacOS, and apparently Windows or Linux isn’t a dealbreaker so that’s negotiable.

 

[m1maverick]

This isn’t about what I want, I’m trying to find out what the supposed Mac Pro loyalists want.

That's easy: They want an expandable Mac like the 1,1 - 5,1 and 7,1 systems.

 

[MRMSFC]

That's easy: They want an expandable Mac like the 1,1 - 5,1 and 7,1 systems.

Elaborate on expansion, be specific.

 

[m1maverick]

Elaborate on expansion, be specific.

That's easy: They want expansion like the 1,1 - 5,1 and 7,1 systems.

 

[MRMSFC]

That's easy: They want expansion like the 1,1 - 5,1 and 7,1 systems.

So what are they missing then? The 7,1 could only run certain AMD cards and no NVidia cards, the socket was only compatible with one Intel generation.

 

[m1maverick]

So what are they missing then? The 7,1 could only run certain AMD cards and no NVidia cards, the socket was only compatible with one Intel generation.

What do you mean?

 

[Flint Ironstag]

I want to talk about something different. We have these M Macs that Apple doesn't allow us to upgrade hardware or replace motherboards. I don't know anyone with skills like Dosdude1 in my area, and I don't know how to use a soldering iron to fix some issues in my Mac computers.

Do you think we will see some third-party companies in the future that allow us to replace the storage, motherboard, or fix problems with graphics chips in M Macs?

I'd put money on the Chinese companies doing GPU repairs and RAM upgrades.

That’s just it though. 90% of the responses basically amounted to “this is too expensive for what you get, **** Apple, I’m buying a PC!”

And strictly speaking if you wanted better bang for your buck, you could get an equivalent or better PC for the asking price.

And if money was no object, then you could get something far more powerful than even the top spec.

If I can be honest, I don’t think any “loyal Mac Pro” buyers on here want a Mac at all. I think you guys just want a PC.

The starting price was undeniably high, but the baseline quality is also in a league above HP, Lenovo, and especially Dell. Mid-range to top of MP 2019 spec was competitive or superior to HP, Lenovo, and Dell. Yes on the high end you could get dual CPUs, higher RAM ceiling on the PCs. You make your choice and you pay the man.

What do you mean?

Bro these Mac Mini users will come in here all day and tell you that PCIe is unnecessary, and that their MBP can handle the biggest workloads. Just how it is 'round here. 🤣

 

[maflynn]

Bro these Mac Mini users will come in here all day and tell you that PCIe is unnecessary, and that their MBP can handle the biggest workloads. Just how it is 'round here. 🤣

You have to include Apple in that group of people you're laughing at, since they largely said that with the killing off of their only computer that had PCIe slots.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

You have to include Apple in that group of people you're laughing at, since they largely said that with the killing off of their only computer that had PCIe slots.

I do... it's dumb as hell.

 

[maflynn]

I do... it's dumb as hell.

So you think it was dumb that apple killed the MP, please explain?

What are the reasons why apple should have kept the Mac Pro going, and what would you have changed to improve it?

 

[m1maverick]

What are the reasons why apple should have kept the Mac Pro going, and what would you have changed to improve it?

My recommendation would be to change it back into what it was with the 1,1 - 5,1 and 7,1 systems.

 

[Mac3Duser]

TinyGPU allows you to connect a GPU to a Silicon Mac, so that means it's also possible internally.

What would be good for the Mac Pro ?

A case smaller than the 7.1 but larger than the Mac Studio, with at least three low-profile PCIe slots to accommodate at least one low-profile SFF GPU (like an Nvidia RTX Pro 4000 Blackwell, or a 2000, or an AMD) and an additional network card or NVMe storage.
A compact case, some ports, a few slots, and GPU computing power.