Agree. Haters are going to hate.
The films are too much like the original.
The films are too different from the original.
The writers can't really win can they?
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)
- Thread starter AustinIllini
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The films are too much like the original.
The films are too different from the original.
The writers can't really win can they?
Quality, it depends on how we define that. Visually and some of the sequences are top notch.
My impressions is that most of the criticism being directed at the new SW movie editions concern story and recycling old material and what appears to be a genuine lack of new, original ideas to carry the franchise forward.
After the end of episode 6’s happy ending, it was a clean slate. What was needed was a transition movie to move forward into a new realm/conflict even if it was 40 years later, such as 40 years of peace (where we left off), but now there are cracks appearing in the stability of the Republic, or better yet a NEW external threat to the Republic.
Instead we get a wall of text that basically resets us back to episode 4 and represents a huge calculated gap in the story. This is ignoring or short changing episode 6 cannon. I guess because of $$$ calculations that they needed to come out of the gate with a bang, but they blew off the the fans who are vested in the story, want consistency, and most importantly want the franchise to move forward into new profound territory, not a been there, done that.
Keep in mind that the point of my post was that these are enormously better than the prequel trilogy.
Your criticisms are valid. I agree with them and I have some of my own to add as well. Nevertheless my opinion still stands that the new movies are enormously better than the prequel trilogy. The dialog and characters in the prequels were complete garbage, and the plots were completely nonsensical.
So even with a near complete lack of originality in Force Awakens, I still hold it far above the prequels. Last Jedi is not as bad, to me it's more like there are lots of parallels than a complete recycling. And my favorite is Rogue One. People can throw a mountain of criticism at these three movies, and I could agree, and I'd still think they are better than the prequels.
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I think that's how everyone sees them - anything's better than the prequels, but people are a bit disappointed at the lack of originality of the sequels. So they won't really be looked at on the same level as the original 3.
The original characters pretty much had to go - out of necessity, there's only so long you can keep a character going without reverting to CGI or Dr. Who tricks - but if anything they were overly reverential to them. Luke should (IMO) have gone down in that battle, Leia shouldn't have come back as she did etc.
I agree that Rogue One is the best, new characters, fresh humour, fresh scenery, some new music tweaks, a darker alliance, a scarier Death Star etc.
Absolutely loved this movie. I enjoyed the rollercoaster of Force Awakens and considered that my favourite film in the series until Last Jedi. At first I didn’t like it as much but on the drive home my wife and kids we got talking about it and I started to realize how much I loved it.
Then again I also enjoyed the prequel films, as flawed as they were.... they felt more like fan fiction kickstarter projects than actual films but I still like them.
What I can’t stand are people that hate all of it except episodes 4-6. Face it, Luke was a brat. He was never as wise and reserved as Obi Wan or Yoda. He abandoned his training and did stuff his own way. And that seemed to have continued throughout the latest films.
I loved the twists. We’re always convinced that plucky adventurers will win but when they failed on the casino planet, and the opening battle, it was so nice seeing failures and Leia calling Po out for the lives that were lost. Very refreshing. Snoke getting wiped out as he did.... and I don’t fully believe he’s actually dead.... was so pivotal. I’m just incredibly glad beyond words that it’s not some dull light-dark side battle, that there’s new factions of Jedi users, new political factions too.
Back when force Awakens was released there was a small theory that Hux was actually a third party in all of this.... that he worked for what effectively was a Green Party that wanted to see both the rebels and bad guys disarmed. After Last Jedi I don’t think that’s the case but instead we have incredibly torn heroes that feel like they might leave their parties and form this Green Party group instead.
One last thing I want to bring up is that Star Wars has always been about young adults saving the day. All the old guard have to make way for the new ones. Those expecting Luke to survive this trilogy.... well....
Then again I also enjoyed the prequel films, as flawed as they were.... they felt more like fan fiction kickstarter projects than actual films but I still like them.
What I can’t stand are people that hate all of it except episodes 4-6. Face it, Luke was a brat. He was never as wise and reserved as Obi Wan or Yoda. He abandoned his training and did stuff his own way. And that seemed to have continued throughout the latest films.
I loved the twists. We’re always convinced that plucky adventurers will win but when they failed on the casino planet, and the opening battle, it was so nice seeing failures and Leia calling Po out for the lives that were lost. Very refreshing. Snoke getting wiped out as he did.... and I don’t fully believe he’s actually dead.... was so pivotal. I’m just incredibly glad beyond words that it’s not some dull light-dark side battle, that there’s new factions of Jedi users, new political factions too.
Back when force Awakens was released there was a small theory that Hux was actually a third party in all of this.... that he worked for what effectively was a Green Party that wanted to see both the rebels and bad guys disarmed. After Last Jedi I don’t think that’s the case but instead we have incredibly torn heroes that feel like they might leave their parties and form this Green Party group instead.
One last thing I want to bring up is that Star Wars has always been about young adults saving the day. All the old guard have to make way for the new ones. Those expecting Luke to survive this trilogy.... well....
I'm not sure if I mentioend this, or anyone else.
Hux, I'm just not feeling it with him. He's the leader of the First Order's armed forces and yet he seems at times bumbling. I mean he had to rise to the top of a ruthless organization somehow yet he lacks the intellegience and bloodthirsty will. We seem to see this a lot in fiction, we have an inept villian that the heros take advantage time in and time out. Yet I loved how Grand Moff Tarkin was portrayed in a new hope, and Rogue One.
Hux, I'm just not feeling it with him. He's the leader of the First Order's armed forces and yet he seems at times bumbling. I mean he had to rise to the top of a ruthless organization somehow yet he lacks the intellegience and bloodthirsty will. We seem to see this a lot in fiction, we have an inept villian that the heros take advantage time in and time out. Yet I loved how Grand Moff Tarkin was portrayed in a new hope, and Rogue One.
Yes, they are better than Episodes 1-3, yet ironically 1-3 were better than Episodes 7-8 from a story aspect, although poorly executed. At least 1-3 did not pull material from 4-6.
I think the primary critiques directed 1-3, are acting, premise, and execution. What really dissapointed me there was the portrayal of Annakin Skywalker, especially his conversion to the dark side being manipulated by Senator Palpitine. There you can blame the script, the director, or the actor, maybe all.
Yes, they are better than Episodes 1-3, yet ironically 1-3 were better than Episodes 7-8 from a story aspect, although poorly executed. At least 1-3 did not pull material from 4-6.
For me, the prequels suffered in a number of areas, but primarily it was the lack of chemistry between the actors/characters
All of the originally trilogy had excellent chemistry between Luke, Leia, Han, R2, C3PO, Chewy and even the evil characters
That was missing with ALL of the prequel characters. Bad writing? Bad acting? All contribute to that I suppose. But yeah, the acting was really bad.
I can't say that I totally objected to the "story" itself in the prequels, honestly I was too distracted by everything else that was bad (including Jar Jar, can't leave out Jar Jar).
For the Force Awakens and Last Jedi, for me, it was less about bad acting and more about the storylines.
Just bad, and I am not one to usually complain about such things. It wasn't just meh, it was bad.
Rogue One was good, not great, but compared to the other 2, it was a masterpiece.
Hux looks and acts like he came straight from the cast of "Robinhood, Men in Tights". Not very intimidating.
It's a pretty bad sign that I had to look up the name. And even after seeing a picture of him, I only vaguely remember his presence.
Yes! I own Rogue One. Episodes 7 and 8 will never be in my library.
This pretty much sums up my feelings about those two movies. While I liked 7 much better than 8, it isn't good enough to find a spot in the library though. Rogue One on the other hand. Big ole thumbs up.
I am really looking forward to "Solo"!
I disagree regarding Ewan Macgregor and especially Ian McDiarmid who actually played well given what - and who he had to work with.
I find it kind of sad that everyone I read who watched the Clone Wars series say Anakin Skywalker was much more convincingly written and portrayed than the live version.
In the prequels, character wise, I basically liked everyone except the boy Anakin, and young adult Anakin. Neither one convinced me. And I'm still half heartedly irritated that Obi Won did not finish off the ORIGINAL murderer of young Jedis
when the golden opportunity lay there before him. Just think of all the grief we could of avoided, but the price would have been the sacrifice of joy associated with episodes 4-6 as we know it. So I have to be ok with it.
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Yes, they are better than Episodes 1-3, yet ironically 1-3 were better than Episodes 7-8 from a story aspect, although poorly executed. At least 1-3 did not pull material from 4-6.
I think you're absolutely right about that. I don't share the strong criticism of Haydn Christiansen that others have on here. I think the role was always going to be a very difficult one, and I don't think it was well written. I accept it was a difficult casting decision, and needed relatively unknown actor so that the audience had no preconceptions about him, but ultimately it didn't work.
As someone else has noted, his character is actually better set out and portrayed in the television series Clone Wars. I got it for my boys recently, and while I haven't seen all of the episodes that they have, I like and understand him more through that series than from AotC and RotS.
[doublepost=1516313607][/doublepost]@MacDawg @maflynn @Huntn
In relation to the prequels I strongly recommend Michael Kaminski's book "The Secret History of Star Wars". It deals with how the films (OT and prequels) came to be exceptionally well. It's a great read and (not wishing to put anyone off) very well researched.
[doublepost=1516314447][/doublepost]
Thanks for the link to the thread. I've read it. The OP in that thread is quite the apologist for TLJ. His posts also suggest he is involved with Star Wars (I'm taking the Star Wars Insider signature at face value in making that observation). Maybe this is the preferred justification for Rian Johnson's writing decisions.
However, I've got to say I completely disagree with him over Luke. The portrayal in TLJ is not consistent with the character in the OT at all. Luke should never have been tempted to kill Ben Solo, let alone ignite his lightsaber while standing over him while he slept. That scene demonstrates a complete failure to understand the Luke Skywalker character from the OT.
Back on Dagobah in ESB, the idea of attacking in fear or anger was the lesson of the cave. He failed the lesson at first. The Vader helmet opened, and he saw himself. He would become another Vader if he didn't learn to use the Force for defence, never for attack. Luke had clearly learned that lesson by the time he faced Vader in the Emperor's throne room, in RotJ, if not before. The idea that years later he would forget that lesson and behave so (dangerously) impulsive is not credible in my view.
It's a poor writing decision by Johnson, because the character of Luke Skywalker was hard to write for, given the expectation built up (including in TFA, after all a significant part of the film is about finding him), and the need to keep the focus on the new characters. But I don't want to repeat myself. I've already made these points earlier in this thread.
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With the movie out on Blu-Ray (and before that digital download), I wanted to adjust my opinion on the movie.
As a stand alone movie (outside of the Star Wars franchise), its good, not great but good. Unlike the original trilogy, I don't think this movie will stand the test of time. I think also the rush to push out movies every year has impacted the quality of the story telling. Troubling news regarding the Solo movie confirms this.
Here's some of the issues I have TLJ specifically.
Holdo's actions, while Leia was in a coma:
I can see not telling Poe about her plans when he confronted her, but its horrible that a leader, any leader would have their crew think all hope is lost, and they're going to die, after an agonizing run away from the enemy. I think a broadcast of hope, saying they're planning on sending small ships to sneak away is better then leaving people to think they'll die shortly.
Ok, so she decides to stay on the ship to give the rebels a chance to make a run for it, why couldn't a droid do that? Also if she's planning on going down with the ship, why not blast into Snoke's ship sooner giving the rebels a better chance of sneakig off. A broadcast to Hux that they'd rather die crashing into Snoke's ship rather then die a slow death may help convey the idea of trying to fool the First Order
Luke Skywalker
His role seems so out of charachter to what was portrayed in the original trilogy, I understand life can grind you down, but the temptation of striking down a sleeping Kyo-Ren seems so against his very principles, that I find that I'm bothered by that more and time goes on. Running away to Ahch-To, cutting himself off on the force and just waiting to die seems like a horrible over exaggerated action
By the way, I'll be buying the movie, and maybe watching later this weekend. Like I said, just now, its not a bad movie, but it suffered from some poor story telling (when the directory keeps explaining why something is done, means he failed to convey that during the movie, so he failed as a director. Some planet sized plot holes, and some odd charachterizations of the heros.
As a stand alone movie (outside of the Star Wars franchise), its good, not great but good. Unlike the original trilogy, I don't think this movie will stand the test of time. I think also the rush to push out movies every year has impacted the quality of the story telling. Troubling news regarding the Solo movie confirms this.
Here's some of the issues I have TLJ specifically.
Holdo's actions, while Leia was in a coma:
I can see not telling Poe about her plans when he confronted her, but its horrible that a leader, any leader would have their crew think all hope is lost, and they're going to die, after an agonizing run away from the enemy. I think a broadcast of hope, saying they're planning on sending small ships to sneak away is better then leaving people to think they'll die shortly.
Ok, so she decides to stay on the ship to give the rebels a chance to make a run for it, why couldn't a droid do that? Also if she's planning on going down with the ship, why not blast into Snoke's ship sooner giving the rebels a better chance of sneakig off. A broadcast to Hux that they'd rather die crashing into Snoke's ship rather then die a slow death may help convey the idea of trying to fool the First Order
Luke Skywalker
His role seems so out of charachter to what was portrayed in the original trilogy, I understand life can grind you down, but the temptation of striking down a sleeping Kyo-Ren seems so against his very principles, that I find that I'm bothered by that more and time goes on. Running away to Ahch-To, cutting himself off on the force and just waiting to die seems like a horrible over exaggerated action
By the way, I'll be buying the movie, and maybe watching later this weekend. Like I said, just now, its not a bad movie, but it suffered from some poor story telling (when the directory keeps explaining why something is done, means he failed to convey that during the movie, so he failed as a director. Some planet sized plot holes, and some odd charachterizations of the heros.
I too will be buying but agree with a lot of what you posted.
The Luke stuff probably bothered me the most. Having had the OT and the expanded universe for the last 40 years, it just seems totally out of character. Yoda too.
But I'll be off to see these movies as they come out, because I'm a fan.
I've read that in a few places, Yoda being out of character. I do not agree, I think it was pretty in character if you compare to his Empire/Jedi appearances.
I think, its fairly close. I can't say how Yoda acted in the legends books, I generally read either old replublic books, or post Return of the Jedi books. I also think he realized at the end of Revenge of the Sith that some long held dogma was wrong, and so with him as a force ghost he as a more holistic perspective
With what you've said I think you should adjust your "good" rating to "just okay".
Rian Johnson basically took a **** on anything he thought a fan might expect or like and then politicized the story in way that almost could be called propaganda.
To me the movie is a absolute turd, like the white crusty ones you find near the dog run.
I would never buy this movie.
There's a lot of good things in the movie, that push it out of an okay rating, at least for me. I love the opening scene, and the fight scene in Snoke's chamber is awesome. I can list off other parts of the movie that imo is gripping and keeps me interested
Just watched this again today. Did anyone see the boy at the end grab the broom, and it went to him (like he used the force to grab it)? Sorry it someone already said this in this thread.
Maybe the Hans Solo movie will somehow serve as a bridge to the Rogue One movie and keep the series alive.