My opinion on the porgs bothers you that much?
Which is exactly why they belong in a Pixar film (which I do enjoy).
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)
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My opinion on the porgs bothers you that much?
Which is exactly why they belong in a Pixar film (which I do enjoy).
Ehhh... hmmmm.... I would rather have seen them edit out the puffins.
Maybe they're there to show that Chewie still has enough of a heart to make friends with his meals.
I completely missed that too. Very subtle, but now that you mention it, I think it's a clever set-up. I wonder if I saw it again if I'd see any more things like that.
Read this yesterday - seems like a good explanation for Luke's behavior .
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...kywalker-fan-theory-explanation-a8140386.html
It's from an unnamed Reddit user, but I've included the interesting parts from it below:
In discussing the contemplated murder, the user explains that it's not too far off from Luke's intent to kill Darth Vader in order to seek justice for his aunt and uncle, Obi-Wan and his father.
The user says, "Even Obi-Wan and Yoda urged him to face and strike Vader down in order to become a Jedi Knight, but Luke's instincts told him different."
They purely see this as a pattern in Luke's character.
"Luke has always trusted his instincts," the Reddit user says. "He did so to destroy the Death Star, and does again to face Vader on Bespin rather than complete his training -- that one was a mistake in the short term, but it allowed him to realise the truth and ultimately redeem Vader."
It’s an interesting point considering Luke has always looked inward to make the most practical decisions.
It’s no different when it comes to Solo: Luke's instincts have been a constant in helping him to make major decisions over the years.
When it comes to killing his own nephew, Luke uses his "feelings" and "insight," but "he only sees darkness."
"Now, Luke's trusted instincts are telling him to strike Ben down for the good of the future, in the same way his damaging trip to Bespin was ultimately a good thing, and to ignore the advice of his Jedi Masters and reach out to Vader was a good thing," the Reddit commenter adds.
While his instincts were wrong, the Reddit user points out that Luke's retreat to self-exile was an emotional crisis where he couldn't trust his insight.
The reasoning is objective and dedicated fans might not be willing to see that any hero has flaws.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...kywalker-fan-theory-explanation-a8140386.html
It's from an unnamed Reddit user, but I've included the interesting parts from it below:
In discussing the contemplated murder, the user explains that it's not too far off from Luke's intent to kill Darth Vader in order to seek justice for his aunt and uncle, Obi-Wan and his father.
The user says, "Even Obi-Wan and Yoda urged him to face and strike Vader down in order to become a Jedi Knight, but Luke's instincts told him different."
They purely see this as a pattern in Luke's character.
"Luke has always trusted his instincts," the Reddit user says. "He did so to destroy the Death Star, and does again to face Vader on Bespin rather than complete his training -- that one was a mistake in the short term, but it allowed him to realise the truth and ultimately redeem Vader."
It’s an interesting point considering Luke has always looked inward to make the most practical decisions.
It’s no different when it comes to Solo: Luke's instincts have been a constant in helping him to make major decisions over the years.
When it comes to killing his own nephew, Luke uses his "feelings" and "insight," but "he only sees darkness."
"Now, Luke's trusted instincts are telling him to strike Ben down for the good of the future, in the same way his damaging trip to Bespin was ultimately a good thing, and to ignore the advice of his Jedi Masters and reach out to Vader was a good thing," the Reddit commenter adds.
While his instincts were wrong, the Reddit user points out that Luke's retreat to self-exile was an emotional crisis where he couldn't trust his insight.
The reasoning is objective and dedicated fans might not be willing to see that any hero has flaws.
A lot of the truths we cling to depend on one's point of view. This is mine:
I thought the movie was awful.
The fundamental failing lies with the choice of director. A film’s director has overall control of plot, acting and how the actors portray their roles. Directors Jar Jar Abrams and Rian Johnson were completely wrong for these films. After the success of Rogue One, they should have had a review of Ep VIII (like they clearly did for the Han Solo movie) and had a very careful rethink. The smart move would have been to pay Gareth Edwards whatever he asked to take over and take the franchise to new heights. They stuck with Jar Jar Abrams, and Rian Johnson (hereafter Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson). This was it’s ultimate downfall.
What they got wrong:
1 They killed off Luke Skywalker
Lucas made it repeatedly clear that the Episodes were a saga centred around the Skywalker / bloodline. After the way they treated Luke, it's as if all they did in the original trilogy was for nothing, not only that, but the prequels showing the rise of Anakin were a waste of time as well. Why spend the first six movies being concerned with bringing ‘balance to the force’ and just give up on the idea, or its significance?
2 How they killed off Luke Skywalker
It was for no reason, on a planet far away, and without any purpose. The Resistance could still have snuck out the back of the base while the First Order took time trying to fight through the rusty door.
3 The force powers they gave Luke Skywalker
They have no precedent in the Star Wars Universe. He could not only project his image from across the galaxy, he could also project a lightsaber to 'duel' with Kylo Ren from across the galaxy. That completely ‘jumped the shark’. Furthermore if he was that powerful, his death whilst being completely safe (across the Galaxy) makes even less sense than before.
In my view these first three points critically damage the future of the franchise.
(Speaking of which, as we are left to believe that Luke Skywalker was the only jedi in the Star Wars Universe in the Jar Jar Abrams era, does this mean Disney/Jar Jar Abrams think George Lucas’s Episode VI should be renamed Return of A Jedi?)
4 The abandoned plot lines from TFA
(a) Luke’s lightsaber. This was clearly an object of great significance, a key focal point in TFA. It called to Rey, and Kylo felt it’s power too, and desperately wanted it. The movie ended with Rey showing it to Luke. It was the climactic scene of TFA. In TLJ, Luke just tosses it aside. It’s as if it was a comic outtake.
Quite clearly Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson had no idea what to do with this key plot line from TFA, and abandoned it. Immediate proof he was not up to the job of directing this movie.
(b) Rey’s heritage. TFA (like it or not) is canon. She has a flashback, and hears voices. In the Star Wars universe these are not fantasies. They clearly have significance. To be told they were nobodies that sold her for drinking money was stupid. A charitable view would be that this was a lie by Kylo Ren, but given Ryan Johnson’s incompetence with the rest of the movie, I don’t think we should give him that much credit. It is significantly inconsistent with TFA. Rian Johnson has bungled it badly again.
(c) Snoke being killed off
Snoke was an all powerful being in TFA, and able to teach Kylo Ren powers that we hadn’t seen before, but were just about credible in the Star Wars universe, including the ability to stop laser bolts mid-flight. Snoke was clearly a character of great interest. Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson clearly had no idea what to do with this either, and so killed him off after less than 5 minutes screen time.
The scene in which it takes place was a rehash of the throne room scene from RTJ. It looked like a set from a 1970s naff TV serial, (but with 21st Century current special effects). Not only was the ROTJ scene repeated, much of the dialogue was repeated. (There was, of course, a similar scene at the start of RoS, but Lucas at least injected new interest into it and gave it plausible context. ). Having disposed of Snoke in a matter of moments, there is then a fight scene with Snoke’s praetorian guards. The two nascent jedi/sith have more trouble defeating them than they did Snoke. Again the fight scene was like something out of a 70s TV-show.
The essential plot line in classic storytelling (for which the OT was rightly praised) has a protagonist (often an underdog) and an antagonist (usually with many advantages) that meet and clash episodically until their final encounter, which is usually the end of the principal story arc. Well that can’t happen now either. Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson has destroyed that completely as well.
The Snoke character was an opportunity to give new interest and insights in to the Force in a way that developed it for the Star Wars Universe, in much the same way that it was developed in the EU. The Force, a fundamental element of the Star Wars Universe, about which the first six episodes turned is now unfathomable in any credible way.
This was another fatal flaw in that someone at Lucasfilm / Disney should have been spotted / stopped at an early stage.
5 The plot line with the Resistance fleet fleeing the First Order
This was an idea substantially taken from Battlestar Galactica, where it was done far more effectively. In the movie, the remnants of the Resistance are fleeing attack from the First Order that has tracked them down. They escape the first situation, by jumping through hyperspace to another location. Unfortunately the First Order tracks them and appears moments later. Then for the first time ever in a Star Wars movie, the Resistance/Rebel fleet don’t have enough fuel for another jump. What follows is a prolonged chase where the First Order never catches up with the Resistance, but one by one Resistance ships run out of fuel, fall back, and are shot down.
The in-movie explanation for the events is that the Resistance fleet is able to keep ahead of the First Order as they are lighter. This is a meaningless explanation in a zero gravity environment. However, even if mass mattered, it might explain that the Super ship Snoke is on couldn’t catch up with them, but not the star destroyers. If the Resistance ships are faster, they should be able to escape. The idea that they all go at the same speed is just stupid.
Vice-Admiral Holdo is left in charge of the fleet after Leia is incapacitated. She veto’s Poe Dameron’s derring-do (consistent with the Star Wars franchise) plan to save them. Is unperturbed when the ships in the fleet are shot down by the First Order, and is generally unconvincing as a character. That’s not the actor’s fault. That’s the emotional response Ryan Jar Jar Jar Johnson directed her to have, and the shots he chose to use from all of those he ordered to be made. All of these scenes are awful. The plot line is stupid. It’s premise of a fuel shortage is from the wrong Sci-Fi Universe.
The situation is resolved in the movie by Vice-Admiral Holdo turning the ship around and then aiming it at Snoke’s big ship and jumping to light speed. Don't get me wrong, that scene was a very effective one, but if that’s all it took, another ship could have done this at an earlier stage.
6 Leia in space + force using
After her ship is damaged, Leia ends up in space without any protection from the vacuum. She is unaffected by the vacuum, and unconscious (and therefore unable to use the Force) and yet she then pulls herself slowly to the nearest ship. Another stretch too far. If Leia was that able with the Force why hasn’t she used the Force before now? It’s another ‘jump the shark’ moment.
7 The Luke/Kylo confrontation flashback
We see two versions of this. One from Luke’s perspective, and one from Kylo’s. Kylo’s could be a lie, or his ‘truth’ from his ‘point of view’. Luke’s version however, is completely inconsistent with the characters development over all of the movies he’s been in. Lucas has made repeatedly clear that Luke Skywalker was not just the strongest Jedi that ever lived, he was the strongest of all time. He had endured a great deal, and knew to control himself and trust in the Force. The idea that he would contemplating killing Ben Solo in his sleep was stupid and completely inconsistent with Star Wars canon; that he would go so far as to light his lightsaber at that moment was another significant plot failing / failure to understand the a central character in the Star Wars Universe.
8 Luke’s reluctance to train Rey / Rey’s training
The master’s reluctance to train the protagonist is a well worn plot device. It gives the protagonist an obstacle to overcome, and is part of his journey to becoming a hero. I can well understand why any director might be reluctant to use this plot device, as it is almost a cliche. It is has also featured in both of the existing Star Wars trilogies.
However in a Star Wars Universe with only one Jedi left (as created by Jar Jar Abrams), it was inevitable and necessary. The usual course for the plot line is that some training is eventually given. Rey’s training in TLJ is so brief to be ridiculous. There is one ‘feel the Force’ moment, after which, he doesn’t train her at all. He doesn’t do anything with the Force at all. It’s because she feels drawn by the dark side that he refuses to train her. This is stupid, not least because when in ESB, he was on Dagobah, and Yoda deliberately tested him in the cave, he too was drawn to the dark side and ‘failed’ the test. This means her being drawn to the dark side in her first lesson is a big 'So what' moment.
In TLJ, Skywalker goes on to complain and refuse to train her because she is too strong with the Force. So what again. That’s not a reason not to train her. Ben Solo’s out there, having turned evil. Shouldn’t someone try to stop him and … bring balance back to the Force?
Bringing balance to the Force was another overriding plot line / story arc from the previous 6 episodes. This was another significant writing / plot failing that critically damages the future of the franchise.
They can blow up planets from across the Galaxy, but they can’t get past a rusty door?
I’m not sure this needs any further explanation. It’s also a rehash of the battle for Hoth. It’s souped up AT-ATs attacking a Resistance base on a white planet. The Resistance have useless speeder bikes that don’t do anything.
This is again another plot failing by Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson. He’s not understood how this scene can be done effectively. in the Battle of Hoth, the Empire had superior numbers and firepower, but Kirshner gave the Rebels little (credible) victories along the way. The Resistance had nothing.
10 It’s at least 15 minutes too long - the pointless scenes and plot lines
ESB had a much slower pace than ANH or ROJ, but it had a plot worth following, and not a scene was wasted. TLJ, by contrast has a number of wasted scenes and a wasted plot line.
(a) The plot line of Finn and Rose trying to get a hacker to stop the First Order tracking the Resistance fleet was ultimately a pointless time filler while another solution was used in the end. It did not advance the story at all. All of those scenes could have been cut without the ending being changed. It did add Benicio Del Toro to the story, but in the end, so what if the plot line doesn’t matter. Finn needed to do something meaningful in the movie, but this cut of the movie wasn't it.
Plus re Benicio Del Toro, if his dialogue is not caught well during the shooting of the scene, get the lines re-dubbed audibly afterwards. There is no point in a character uttering dialogue the audience cannot clearly hear.
(b) Rose
She falls in love with Finn and helps him fight for the cause. But she’s clearly a temporary disposable character and it’s never convincing as to why she likes him. At the start of the movie he’s in some kind of body bag, and their first interaction has him trying to desert the cause. She sees in him a better person than he sees in himself. Okay, that is a message consistent with the Star Wars universe, but so does Rey. Either put it across meaningfully with a proper relationship or cut the scenes.
(c) Porgs and Farthiers
Credibly or not, Ewoks helped in the battle of Endor. Porgs and Farthiers did nothing. We don’t see any reason for Chewbacca to like or make friends with them in the movie. If those scenes existed, but were cut, cut the rest too. They are pointless.
(d) The scenes with the children
As I am British, they seemed to me to be a copy of the John Lewis Christmas add from 2016. If a department store’s Christmas advertising campaign can do it better than a multi-billion dollar Hollywood blockbuster movie franchise, you shouldn’t even try. Yes these movies are aimed at children, but it’s a certificate 12A. It flows from this that 6 and 7 year olds looking happy to see people from the Resistance, or being given a ring with the Rebellion symbol on it, are irrelevant (just like the Porgs).
11 Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson, has missed the point
The essential and underlying optimism of the OT comes from small groups of friends, banding together, doing the right thing in the face of adversity and eventually triumphing. Even if they don’t triumph completely at the end of the movie (eg ESB), they do have meaningful smaller triumphs along the way. This is fundamentally missing from TLJ.
And so it is for these reasons (among many others) that I really didn't like the movie.
The greatest tragedy of all, however, is that there was another film director that got all of these things right, and created a brilliant movie that was a worthy addition to the Star Wars franchise: Gareth Edwards, director of Rogue One.
No matter how ‘well regarded’ JJ Abrams is, or how good a game Rian Johnson can talk at parties or (interviews to become the director of a Star Wars movie), when you look at their output in the Star Wars Universe, their accomplishments are starkly less than those of Gareth Edwards. Gareth Edwards gave us a great, ORIGINAL story that fitted in brilliantly with the Star Wars universe (and I suspect he did it for a fraction of the cost). By contrast, JJ Abrams gave us a reboot of ANH, and Rian Johnson gave us a mash up of scenes and dialogue from the Original Trilogy.
These were not the movies Star Wars fans were looking for. The franchise deserved better. Maybe next year we should all move along?
I thought the movie was awful.
The fundamental failing lies with the choice of director. A film’s director has overall control of plot, acting and how the actors portray their roles. Directors Jar Jar Abrams and Rian Johnson were completely wrong for these films. After the success of Rogue One, they should have had a review of Ep VIII (like they clearly did for the Han Solo movie) and had a very careful rethink. The smart move would have been to pay Gareth Edwards whatever he asked to take over and take the franchise to new heights. They stuck with Jar Jar Abrams, and Rian Johnson (hereafter Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson). This was it’s ultimate downfall.
What they got wrong:
1 They killed off Luke Skywalker
Lucas made it repeatedly clear that the Episodes were a saga centred around the Skywalker / bloodline. After the way they treated Luke, it's as if all they did in the original trilogy was for nothing, not only that, but the prequels showing the rise of Anakin were a waste of time as well. Why spend the first six movies being concerned with bringing ‘balance to the force’ and just give up on the idea, or its significance?
2 How they killed off Luke Skywalker
It was for no reason, on a planet far away, and without any purpose. The Resistance could still have snuck out the back of the base while the First Order took time trying to fight through the rusty door.
3 The force powers they gave Luke Skywalker
They have no precedent in the Star Wars Universe. He could not only project his image from across the galaxy, he could also project a lightsaber to 'duel' with Kylo Ren from across the galaxy. That completely ‘jumped the shark’. Furthermore if he was that powerful, his death whilst being completely safe (across the Galaxy) makes even less sense than before.
In my view these first three points critically damage the future of the franchise.
(Speaking of which, as we are left to believe that Luke Skywalker was the only jedi in the Star Wars Universe in the Jar Jar Abrams era, does this mean Disney/Jar Jar Abrams think George Lucas’s Episode VI should be renamed Return of A Jedi?)
4 The abandoned plot lines from TFA
(a) Luke’s lightsaber. This was clearly an object of great significance, a key focal point in TFA. It called to Rey, and Kylo felt it’s power too, and desperately wanted it. The movie ended with Rey showing it to Luke. It was the climactic scene of TFA. In TLJ, Luke just tosses it aside. It’s as if it was a comic outtake.
Quite clearly Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson had no idea what to do with this key plot line from TFA, and abandoned it. Immediate proof he was not up to the job of directing this movie.
(b) Rey’s heritage. TFA (like it or not) is canon. She has a flashback, and hears voices. In the Star Wars universe these are not fantasies. They clearly have significance. To be told they were nobodies that sold her for drinking money was stupid. A charitable view would be that this was a lie by Kylo Ren, but given Ryan Johnson’s incompetence with the rest of the movie, I don’t think we should give him that much credit. It is significantly inconsistent with TFA. Rian Johnson has bungled it badly again.
(c) Snoke being killed off
Snoke was an all powerful being in TFA, and able to teach Kylo Ren powers that we hadn’t seen before, but were just about credible in the Star Wars universe, including the ability to stop laser bolts mid-flight. Snoke was clearly a character of great interest. Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson clearly had no idea what to do with this either, and so killed him off after less than 5 minutes screen time.
The scene in which it takes place was a rehash of the throne room scene from RTJ. It looked like a set from a 1970s naff TV serial, (but with 21st Century current special effects). Not only was the ROTJ scene repeated, much of the dialogue was repeated. (There was, of course, a similar scene at the start of RoS, but Lucas at least injected new interest into it and gave it plausible context. ). Having disposed of Snoke in a matter of moments, there is then a fight scene with Snoke’s praetorian guards. The two nascent jedi/sith have more trouble defeating them than they did Snoke. Again the fight scene was like something out of a 70s TV-show.
The essential plot line in classic storytelling (for which the OT was rightly praised) has a protagonist (often an underdog) and an antagonist (usually with many advantages) that meet and clash episodically until their final encounter, which is usually the end of the principal story arc. Well that can’t happen now either. Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson has destroyed that completely as well.
The Snoke character was an opportunity to give new interest and insights in to the Force in a way that developed it for the Star Wars Universe, in much the same way that it was developed in the EU. The Force, a fundamental element of the Star Wars Universe, about which the first six episodes turned is now unfathomable in any credible way.
This was another fatal flaw in that someone at Lucasfilm / Disney should have been spotted / stopped at an early stage.
5 The plot line with the Resistance fleet fleeing the First Order
This was an idea substantially taken from Battlestar Galactica, where it was done far more effectively. In the movie, the remnants of the Resistance are fleeing attack from the First Order that has tracked them down. They escape the first situation, by jumping through hyperspace to another location. Unfortunately the First Order tracks them and appears moments later. Then for the first time ever in a Star Wars movie, the Resistance/Rebel fleet don’t have enough fuel for another jump. What follows is a prolonged chase where the First Order never catches up with the Resistance, but one by one Resistance ships run out of fuel, fall back, and are shot down.
The in-movie explanation for the events is that the Resistance fleet is able to keep ahead of the First Order as they are lighter. This is a meaningless explanation in a zero gravity environment. However, even if mass mattered, it might explain that the Super ship Snoke is on couldn’t catch up with them, but not the star destroyers. If the Resistance ships are faster, they should be able to escape. The idea that they all go at the same speed is just stupid.
Vice-Admiral Holdo is left in charge of the fleet after Leia is incapacitated. She veto’s Poe Dameron’s derring-do (consistent with the Star Wars franchise) plan to save them. Is unperturbed when the ships in the fleet are shot down by the First Order, and is generally unconvincing as a character. That’s not the actor’s fault. That’s the emotional response Ryan Jar Jar Jar Johnson directed her to have, and the shots he chose to use from all of those he ordered to be made. All of these scenes are awful. The plot line is stupid. It’s premise of a fuel shortage is from the wrong Sci-Fi Universe.
The situation is resolved in the movie by Vice-Admiral Holdo turning the ship around and then aiming it at Snoke’s big ship and jumping to light speed. Don't get me wrong, that scene was a very effective one, but if that’s all it took, another ship could have done this at an earlier stage.
6 Leia in space + force using
After her ship is damaged, Leia ends up in space without any protection from the vacuum. She is unaffected by the vacuum, and unconscious (and therefore unable to use the Force) and yet she then pulls herself slowly to the nearest ship. Another stretch too far. If Leia was that able with the Force why hasn’t she used the Force before now? It’s another ‘jump the shark’ moment.
7 The Luke/Kylo confrontation flashback
We see two versions of this. One from Luke’s perspective, and one from Kylo’s. Kylo’s could be a lie, or his ‘truth’ from his ‘point of view’. Luke’s version however, is completely inconsistent with the characters development over all of the movies he’s been in. Lucas has made repeatedly clear that Luke Skywalker was not just the strongest Jedi that ever lived, he was the strongest of all time. He had endured a great deal, and knew to control himself and trust in the Force. The idea that he would contemplating killing Ben Solo in his sleep was stupid and completely inconsistent with Star Wars canon; that he would go so far as to light his lightsaber at that moment was another significant plot failing / failure to understand the a central character in the Star Wars Universe.
8 Luke’s reluctance to train Rey / Rey’s training
The master’s reluctance to train the protagonist is a well worn plot device. It gives the protagonist an obstacle to overcome, and is part of his journey to becoming a hero. I can well understand why any director might be reluctant to use this plot device, as it is almost a cliche. It is has also featured in both of the existing Star Wars trilogies.
However in a Star Wars Universe with only one Jedi left (as created by Jar Jar Abrams), it was inevitable and necessary. The usual course for the plot line is that some training is eventually given. Rey’s training in TLJ is so brief to be ridiculous. There is one ‘feel the Force’ moment, after which, he doesn’t train her at all. He doesn’t do anything with the Force at all. It’s because she feels drawn by the dark side that he refuses to train her. This is stupid, not least because when in ESB, he was on Dagobah, and Yoda deliberately tested him in the cave, he too was drawn to the dark side and ‘failed’ the test. This means her being drawn to the dark side in her first lesson is a big 'So what' moment.
In TLJ, Skywalker goes on to complain and refuse to train her because she is too strong with the Force. So what again. That’s not a reason not to train her. Ben Solo’s out there, having turned evil. Shouldn’t someone try to stop him and … bring balance back to the Force?
Bringing balance to the Force was another overriding plot line / story arc from the previous 6 episodes. This was another significant writing / plot failing that critically damages the future of the franchise.
They can blow up planets from across the Galaxy, but they can’t get past a rusty door?
I’m not sure this needs any further explanation. It’s also a rehash of the battle for Hoth. It’s souped up AT-ATs attacking a Resistance base on a white planet. The Resistance have useless speeder bikes that don’t do anything.
This is again another plot failing by Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson. He’s not understood how this scene can be done effectively. in the Battle of Hoth, the Empire had superior numbers and firepower, but Kirshner gave the Rebels little (credible) victories along the way. The Resistance had nothing.
10 It’s at least 15 minutes too long - the pointless scenes and plot lines
ESB had a much slower pace than ANH or ROJ, but it had a plot worth following, and not a scene was wasted. TLJ, by contrast has a number of wasted scenes and a wasted plot line.
(a) The plot line of Finn and Rose trying to get a hacker to stop the First Order tracking the Resistance fleet was ultimately a pointless time filler while another solution was used in the end. It did not advance the story at all. All of those scenes could have been cut without the ending being changed. It did add Benicio Del Toro to the story, but in the end, so what if the plot line doesn’t matter. Finn needed to do something meaningful in the movie, but this cut of the movie wasn't it.
Plus re Benicio Del Toro, if his dialogue is not caught well during the shooting of the scene, get the lines re-dubbed audibly afterwards. There is no point in a character uttering dialogue the audience cannot clearly hear.
(b) Rose
She falls in love with Finn and helps him fight for the cause. But she’s clearly a temporary disposable character and it’s never convincing as to why she likes him. At the start of the movie he’s in some kind of body bag, and their first interaction has him trying to desert the cause. She sees in him a better person than he sees in himself. Okay, that is a message consistent with the Star Wars universe, but so does Rey. Either put it across meaningfully with a proper relationship or cut the scenes.
(c) Porgs and Farthiers
Credibly or not, Ewoks helped in the battle of Endor. Porgs and Farthiers did nothing. We don’t see any reason for Chewbacca to like or make friends with them in the movie. If those scenes existed, but were cut, cut the rest too. They are pointless.
(d) The scenes with the children
As I am British, they seemed to me to be a copy of the John Lewis Christmas add from 2016. If a department store’s Christmas advertising campaign can do it better than a multi-billion dollar Hollywood blockbuster movie franchise, you shouldn’t even try. Yes these movies are aimed at children, but it’s a certificate 12A. It flows from this that 6 and 7 year olds looking happy to see people from the Resistance, or being given a ring with the Rebellion symbol on it, are irrelevant (just like the Porgs).
11 Rian Jar Jar Jar Johnson, has missed the point
The essential and underlying optimism of the OT comes from small groups of friends, banding together, doing the right thing in the face of adversity and eventually triumphing. Even if they don’t triumph completely at the end of the movie (eg ESB), they do have meaningful smaller triumphs along the way. This is fundamentally missing from TLJ.
And so it is for these reasons (among many others) that I really didn't like the movie.
The greatest tragedy of all, however, is that there was another film director that got all of these things right, and created a brilliant movie that was a worthy addition to the Star Wars franchise: Gareth Edwards, director of Rogue One.
No matter how ‘well regarded’ JJ Abrams is, or how good a game Rian Johnson can talk at parties or (interviews to become the director of a Star Wars movie), when you look at their output in the Star Wars Universe, their accomplishments are starkly less than those of Gareth Edwards. Gareth Edwards gave us a great, ORIGINAL story that fitted in brilliantly with the Star Wars universe (and I suspect he did it for a fraction of the cost). By contrast, JJ Abrams gave us a reboot of ANH, and Rian Johnson gave us a mash up of scenes and dialogue from the Original Trilogy.
These were not the movies Star Wars fans were looking for. The franchise deserved better. Maybe next year we should all move along?
I was going to do a point by point response, but you're long exposition was such, that I ran out of steam 
. So I'll touch upon a couple of things.
Also if you look at Wookiepedia you see that the idea of force teleportation was used and its not far off then to use a force ghost.
My point is that authors, and screen writers have thought up all sorts of crazy things for force users, but now all of sudden people are getting upset because they added a new ability with no precedent? Seems rather insincere to enjoy the other movies (and not complain), other books, but say the screen writers should not introduce any new force ability that was not previously mentioned
. So I'll touch upon a couple of things.The Star Wars franchise isn't Lucas's anymore, he sold it and he has no say. Also if you remember correctly back when Disney announced they were going to make Episode 7 (and beyond) they did so before they even invited Carrie, Harrison and Mark. It was clear from the get go these movies were about a new younger set of characters and to quote someone wise. From a certain point of view, it is still about the Skywalkers as we're going to find out about Kilo Ren.
Actually it was, Luke facing off Kilo Ren gave them the time and hope to see there was a possible back door escape. If you remember prior to his arrival they were all consigned to facing the forces of the First Order.
This is really the one item I see and it's funny, because writers have been giving force users all sorts of crazy powers throughout the franchise, whether we're talking about the movies or books. People didn't complain when Luke could moved his light saber with the force in Empire Strikes Back, even though that was new, or the Emperor using Force Lightening in Return of the Jedi or about how "Electic Judgment". The use of force lightening by light side users. Source:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment.
Also if you look at Wookiepedia you see that the idea of force teleportation was used and its not far off then to use a force ghost.
My point is that authors, and screen writers have thought up all sorts of crazy things for force users, but now all of sudden people are getting upset because they added a new ability with no precedent? Seems rather insincere to enjoy the other movies (and not complain), other books, but say the screen writers should not introduce any new force ability that was not previously mentioned
I disagree and it seems as the franchise making a billion dollars are showing folks are voting with their wallets. Yes, there is a fair amount of controversy and many Star Wars fans walked into the movies expecting everyone to act a certain way and that didn't happen. Yet think about it this, if we knew how everything should have unfolded and how they should have acted, that would have been a very boring movie. While I was bummed to see Luke pass on into the force, that doesn't mean we'll not see him in Episode 9. Just remember Obi Wan Kenobi died in a New Hope, yet we saw him in all three movies.
A quick point about the children sweeping the horse stalls in Monaco (you know, the casino city) —
Those kids are the next Resistance.
The boy at the very end demonstrated Jedi powers, too, and not in an “Oh wow, look at what I can do now!” kind of way, either. When we walked outside to sweep up the corral, he Force-grabbed the broom from the wall, doing it totally casually, like he had done it hundreds of times before.
The kid has powers, but I don’t think he knows that he’s special (for that matter, who knows if any of the other kids do, too). But now that he’s seen people from the Resistance, and that they were good to him, and that they were able to beat the bad guys, he knows that he needs to reach for the stars and join them in the future.
The stories of the Rebel Alliance and Jedi Knights got some new life thanks to Rose and Finn visiting that planet. Stories are what give people hope, too.
*****
Separate tangent —
Was it weird to anyone else that we were introduced to the idea of a galaxy-wide corporation profiteering from the war by selling weapons to both sides? Think we’ll see any more of this in later episodes? Maybe Stark Industries is behind it.
Those kids are the next Resistance.
The boy at the very end demonstrated Jedi powers, too, and not in an “Oh wow, look at what I can do now!” kind of way, either. When we walked outside to sweep up the corral, he Force-grabbed the broom from the wall, doing it totally casually, like he had done it hundreds of times before.
The kid has powers, but I don’t think he knows that he’s special (for that matter, who knows if any of the other kids do, too). But now that he’s seen people from the Resistance, and that they were good to him, and that they were able to beat the bad guys, he knows that he needs to reach for the stars and join them in the future.
The stories of the Rebel Alliance and Jedi Knights got some new life thanks to Rose and Finn visiting that planet. Stories are what give people hope, too.
*****
Separate tangent —
Was it weird to anyone else that we were introduced to the idea of a galaxy-wide corporation profiteering from the war by selling weapons to both sides? Think we’ll see any more of this in later episodes? Maybe Stark Industries is behind it.
Of course it's about the new characters, and not under the control of Lucas any more. However, my point is that the central character from the Original Trilogy should have been dealt with in a better way.
For the avoidance of doubt, I accept it is always difficult when writing about characters that have been given great powers. It always begs the question, why not use the power earlier and stop the villain immediately. My point is that there were other better options for the franchise to explore, rather than the pointless death Johnson wrote. Writers need to find something for these characters to do while the rest of the plot is explored / characters are developed. For example, Luke could have been sent after some Force McGuffin that Snoke was interested in, or even gone off to confront Snoke at a separate location. In my view, this treatment of the character was inconsistent with what we know of the character from the Original Trilogy. As Hamill has said in a number of interviews, Jedi don't give up. But it's more than that, this character was not one to give up, not when facing the Death Star in a suicide mission in ANH, Vader in ESB, or the Emperor in RotJ. It was always going to be a challenge for any writer/director to deal with this character in a believable way. In my view Rian Johnson failed the challenge.
Yes, but eventually they noticed that the native animals had disappeared, and went to see how they got out. It's a plot device already seen in Star Wars: Rebels. The 'Buying time' plot device is not a sensible way to kill off the central character from the Original Trilogy, in my opinion. The attack with the speeder bikes could have served that purpose just as well.
I confess I haven't read much of the EU because I found much of it (Timothy Zahn aside) to be badly written, and because the dreamed up force powers were also ludicrous, as you rightly point out, my friend. I think Disney's decision to ditch the EU was a very sensible one.
My point is that this Force power of projecting oneself across the galaxy really 'jumps the shark'. Writers/directors can't put just anything on screen and expect an audience to believe it. The James Bond Franchise had an invisible car in the last Pierce Brosnan movie, that 'jumped the shark' too. Thereafter the rebooted the series (rightly) with Daniel Craig and a grittier, lower tech set of story lines.
If we consider this Force power for a moment, two questions arise: IF this power was a light side Force power, why wasn't Yoda, Obi-Wan, Mace or Anakin using it throughout the Clone Wars? Alternatively if it was a dark side Force power, why wasn't Darth Sidious using it to speak with Maul, Dooku or the Separatist leaders? For me, it was just ridiculous. Rian Johnson didn't know how to write the character, or deal with the character in the film without detracting from the Rey, Kylo, Finn plot lines, and so killed him off quickly and pointlessly.
My essential point is that other writer/directors could have done this better and differently, starting with Gareth Edwards who directed Rogue One.
So far, yes. But for how long?
The Box office receipts of films in a movie franchise are heavily influenced by the success of the previous movie. Critic assessments are too. TFA got a soft ride as it was the first Star Wars movie for decades, and JJ Abrams got the feel of a Star Wars movie right. However, fundamentally it was a rehash of ANH. Watch it more than once and you can't miss that. After the initial positive reception, it's standing fell dramatically. Critics going to see the next movie in the franchise would be aware of that too. Critics went to see Rogue One with a more critical mindset. It was an outstanding success, and for many people is one of the best films in the franchise. It's standing has risen in the months since its release. TLJ follows on the footsteps of Rogue One, a highly successful and critically acclaimed Star Wars movie, and so it's initial reception was positive. It's after the excitement of the new movie in the franchise wears off that a more measured response is had.
We need to set the opening weeks receipts in context. People have followed this franchise for decades, and it is widely popular. It was always going to have strong box office receipts in the first few weeks, so did Phantom Menace. Many have avoided spoilers for it avidly so that they can judge the film on its own terms. I encourage everyone to do that. But once you've seen it, and the initial excitement wears off, you realise that so much of this movie is a rehash of scenes and dialogue from the Original Trilogy. This is very sloppy writing. Word of mouth is the ultimate test of a movie's success and has the ultimate judgment on any movie. The audience reaction to the movie on Rotten Tomatoes has dropped to 50% of viewers liking it. That's the lowest rating for any movie in the franchise, and may yet go down further.
Characters being dealt with sympathetically and consistently need not make for boring movies. The Marvel franchise has used its characters in multiple movies, often crossing over into other character's movies / storylines. If Marvel can employ writers who are able to do that, why can't Disney?
As for Luke as a force ghost in Ep IX, we'll have to wait and see. I notice that Hamill has suddenly stopped being critical of the film and Rian Johnson's treatment of his character and started supporting it (and Rian Johnson). Whether that's because he's been reminded of some contract clause linked to future profits if he fails to support the movie, or whether Disney has come to regret allowing Luke to be killed off in this way and wants him to play a part in Ep IX remains to be seen. We know they stopped the Solo movie, changed director and reshot scenes after the success of Rogue One. They have a strong financial interest in keeping the franchise alive and doing well. Disney will also be mindful of the negative reaction to the treatment of Luke in this movie.
The character Yoda once said "difficult to see the future is, constantly change it is". I hope it changes for the better.
For my part, knowing there is a Kenobi movie in the works, all I can say is "I have a bad feeling about this".
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I disagree with most of what you said, but will address the bolded parts only: it's actually explained in the movie, that force projection demands so much that it kills whoever does it.
So that makes it a not so convenient means of communication
I loved that quote, which I missed in the first time I saw the movie, but picked up on it on the second time. I think they tried to explain things and did an ok job, but at times I do think it was a little too subtle. The quote you reference by Kilo Ren is a good example.
Still as I said, I really enjoyed the movie
I saw several movies recently and the Last Jedi was the worst.
Will Smith Bright was better
Jumanji was over the top compared to Star Wars
Blade Runners... it was ok.
The Last Jedi has more to do with Transformers, mediocre scrip, shallow characters, sequences that make no sense.
Will Smith Bright was better
Jumanji was over the top compared to Star Wars
Blade Runners... it was ok.
The Last Jedi has more to do with Transformers, mediocre scrip, shallow characters, sequences that make no sense.
Blade Runner (no 's' ...) 2049 was a pretty brilliant follow up to one of the seminal films of modern sci-fi.
RIGHT ON BROTHA- We want profound and epic, but mostly we don’t not want repeats, rehashes, recycling, because the money grabbers don’t have an original idea in their heads, which could of included the Skywalker family. Their next new idea will be about a force sensitive kid who races speeders!
My hopes were high and now they are dashed for the time being. Rogue One, which was still in original cannon, was splendid. Hopefully they won’t **** up the Hans Solo Story. But the real tragedy is that so far, this franchise, despite the millions available to spend on it, 2 new chapters in, has no worthy identifiable future. The original trilogy is a gem in a **** sandwich.
These days if I need to buoy myself because of Star Wars disappointment, I listen to this magnificant musical creation and accompanying visuals. It still gives me chills.
...sorry for the relapse. [doublepost=1515191565][/doublepost]
Yet Luke sat there content and happy as he faded away. You’d think that such a death from overdoing the force would be a painful experience, a rebound, something like getting zapped by the evil emperor.
I disagree with most of what you said, but will address the bolded parts only: it's actually explained in the movie, that force projection demands so much that it kills whoever does it.
So that makes it a not so convenient means of communication
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He welcomed death. It meant he could be reunited with his wife Mara Jade Skywalker!RIGHT ON BROTHA- We want profound and epic, but mostly we don’t not want repeats, rehashes, recycling, because the money grabbers don’t have an original idea in their heads, which could of included the Skywalker family. Their next new idea will be about a force sensitive kid who races speeders!
My hopes were high and now they are dashed for the time being. Rogue One, which was still in original cannon, was splendid. Hopefully they won’t **** up the Hans Solo Story. But the real tragedy is that so far, this franchise, despite the millions available to spend on it, 2 new chapters in, has no worthy identifiable future. The original trilogy is a gem in a **** sandwich.
These days if I need to buoy myself because of Star Wars disappointment, I listen to this magnificant musical creation and accompanying visuals. It still gives me chills.
[doublepost=1515191565][/doublepost]
Yet Luke sat there content and happy as he faded away. You’d think that such a death from overdoing the force would be a painful experience, a rebound, something like getting zapped by the evil emperor.
And yet it made a billion dollars, if I was a stock holder, I'd probably sell on more concrete financial data then because I didn't like a movie.
Legends has him married, the new canon doesn't (AFAIK) show him married.
I'm aware. Just been reading that stuff for 30 years, so my brain still thinks it's valid!
I disagree with most of what you said, but will address the bolded parts only: it's actually explained in the movie, that force projection demands so much that it kills whoever does it.
Firstly, nice gif my friend.
But secondly, which character explained it? I don't recall any. It's what we see happen, but there is no explanation that I recall.
It's still a pointless sacrifice in any event. A better way for Luke to assist the Resistance would be to ... (this will shock no-one) ... train some jedi! That is what Snoke feared he would do.
But you are entitled to your own view of the movie, of course.
They are using the power of the image to sway the non-questioning audience into swallowing it. Look, there he is happy and content, fading away. Take our word for it.
I don’t see this overexertion, such a life draining move that would kill the individual, portrayed as happily fading away. I’d imagine if not in agony, at least collapsing at the end of it, dead. But admittedly, I’m soured on the direction of the story, this is my opinion, and this is entertainment, all at the pleasure of the eye of the beholder. If the quality of the story is important, suspension of many things, ignoring what has come before, and excuses are required to embrace TFA and TLJ. There is no meaningful way that these 2 new episodes can be viewed as worthy, as forging ahead into new Star-wars story telling territory. With slight variations it’s been there done that. If Lucas had been responsible for this, he would have been accused of being beret of new ideas.
A movie with the SW stamp on it could be of Jabba the Hut on the toilet would make at least 500 million. Besides I bought into disney at $50
Amazingly it’s been awarded a Golden Tomatoe award, 90% of the critics like it, while only 50% of the viewing audience like it. Clearly this is a battle between mindless entertainment with a SW label on one hand versus the soul of Star Wars on the other.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/
Statement from the director, redefining originality:
So, what was Rian Johnson trying to achieve with “The Last Jedi”? He did not issue a director’s statement when the film was released, but he has responded to the backlash, tweeting that “the goal is never to divide or make people upset, but I do think the conversations that are happening were going to have to happen at some point if [Star Wars] is going to grow, move forward, and stay vital.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...b90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.bae772caeff8
Wow. How about moving forward by ... moving forward?? Staying vital is not by recycling old material.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/
Statement from the director, redefining originality:
So, what was Rian Johnson trying to achieve with “The Last Jedi”? He did not issue a director’s statement when the film was released, but he has responded to the backlash, tweeting that “the goal is never to divide or make people upset, but I do think the conversations that are happening were going to have to happen at some point if [Star Wars] is going to grow, move forward, and stay vital.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...b90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.bae772caeff8
Wow. How about moving forward by ... moving forward?? Staying vital is not by recycling old material.
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The movie was way too political. Must I say more? It drew way too many references to current issues of our time. Why can't companies make movies that area just fun to watch, and not politicized?