Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion (WARNING: SPOILERS EVERYWHERE)

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Amazingly it’s been awarded a Golden Tomatoe award, 90% of the critics like it, while only 50% of the viewing audience like it. Clearly this is a battle between mindless entertainment with a SW label on one hand versus the soul of Star Wars on the other.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

Statement from the director, redefining originality:
So, what was Rian Johnson trying to achieve with “The Last Jedi”? He did not issue a director’s statement when the film was released, but he has responded to the backlash, tweeting that “the goal is never to divide or make people upset, but I do think the conversations that are happening were going to have to happen at some point if [Star Wars] is going to grow, move forward, and stay vital.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...b90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.bae772caeff8

Wow. How about moving forward by ... moving forward?? Staying vital is not by recycling old material.

Quite.

My take on the critics response is set out above. I think they are 1 step behind the viewing audience when it comes to movies in a franchise. Too generous with TFA, too harsh on Rogue One. Far too generous with TLJ in my view. Maybe they didn't know the franchise well enough to know that many of the film's key scenes were recycled dialogue and action from the original trilogy? The audience certainly did.

Whilst killing off Luke Skywalker avoids the cliche'd master-pupil training plot device, maybe they'd forgotten he was the hero of the original trilogy, and that having allowed Han Solo a central role in TFA, the intended viewing audience might (reasonably) expect to learn more of this character rather than the travesty we were given?

Studios approve scripts for large budget films. Luke's death in this way must have been present at an early stage. I suspect Johnson has been justifying his decision to kill off Luke for sometime. The audience response shows he got it wrong, and all those who sought to dissaude him were right all along.

Some of the interviews on YouTube (including those posted here by Kingslayer) show that Hamill and Ridley both questioned this plot decision. At some point, Johnson (and Disney) should have stopped being stubborn, and started listening to other (wiser) counsel.

 

[Huntn]

Warning Star Wars Ranting continues, please stop if you’ll be aggravated.

Quite.

My take on the critics response is set out above. I think they are 1 step behind the viewing audience when it comes to movies in a franchise. Too generous with TFA, too harsh on Rogue One. Far too generous with TLJ in my view. Maybe they didn't know the franchise well enough to know that many of the film's key scenes were recycled dialogue and action from the original trilogy? The audience certainly did.

Whilst killing off Luke Skywalker avoids the cliche'd master-pupil training plot device, maybe they'd forgotten he was the hero of the original trilogy, and that having allowed Han Solo a central role in TFA, the intended viewing audience might (reasonably) expect to learn more of this character rather than the travesty we were given?

Studios approve scripts for large budget films. Luke's death in this way must have been present at an early stage. I suspect Johnson has been justifying his decision to kill off Luke for sometime. The audience response shows he got it wrong, and all those who sought to dissaude him were right all along.

Some of the interviews on YouTube (including those posted here by Kingslayer) show that Hamill and Ridley both questioned this plot decision. At some point, Johnson (and Disney) should have stopped being stubborn, and started listening to other (wiser) counsel.

I’ve got it, the plan was to milk the original franchise for two more films, killing off Luke in some pseudo magnificent way, but we get one more film with Leia before we get a clean break from the Skywalker family and a brand new start...

Except the new hero of the franchise got eerily started just like Luke did and oh look, the rebellion has been reduced to a shadow of what it even was in Episode 4! Gee where will they take this new original idea?

You know, we can never get enough of rebels vs the empire action. And they are oh so tricky, there are rumors that Rey is not her real name to protect her identity. Hmm, has that ever happened before in this series? I won’t be surprised if Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo or even Rey Ren* will fight the new Darth Ren. Last time we had a father/son dynamic. The new original idea could be a sibling dynamic! And maybe she will get him good with the force too before he dies? But since that was been already dangled in Episode 8 and failed, maybe for originality, this time the villain relative will go down as a bad guy, yeah! So many original possibilities it’s hard to predict!

* Despite some research I’m not sure if Rey is her first of family name, but I assumed last name if it’s a made up name to protect her identity... I don’t really know.

 

[Number-Six]

Firstly, nice gif my friend.

But secondly, which character explained it? I don't recall any. It's what we see happen, but there is no explanation that I recall.

It's still a pointless sacrifice in any event. A better way for Luke to assist the Resistance would be to ... (this will shock no-one) ... train some jedi! That is what Snoke feared he would do.

But you are entitled to your own view of the movie, of course.

Kylo Ren says it to Rey at some point while trying to figure out how they are able to communicate

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Kylo Ren says it to Rey at some point while trying to figure out how they are able to communicate

I don't remember that, and I have seen it twice (once with friends who grew up with Star Wars, and once with my kids).

Others may be able to assist us with this. I won't be going to see this movie again.

I notice you strongly support TLJ on here. What did you think of Rogue One?
[doublepost=1515406630][/doublepost]

Except the new hero of the franchise got eerily started just like Luke did and oh look, the rebellion has been reduced to a shadow of what it even was in Episode 4! Gee where will they take this new original idea?

You know, we can never get enough of rebels vs the empire action. And they are oh so tricky, there are rumors that Rey is not her real name to protect her identity. Hmm, has that ever happened before in this series? I won’t be surprised if Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo or even Rey Ren* will fight the new Darth Ren. Last time we had a father/son dynamic. The new original idea could be a sibling dynamic! And maybe she will get him good with the force too before he dies? But since that was been already dangled in Episode 8 and failed, maybe for originality, this time the villain relative will go down as a bad guy, yeah! So many original possibilities it’s hard to predict!

* Despite some research I’m not sure if Rey is her first of family name, but I assumed last name if it’s a made up name to protect her identity... I don’t really know.

Given the dearth of originality in TFA and TLJ, I wonder what JJ Abrams will be plagiarising for Ep 9?
Ewok battle?
visit to Jabba the Hut's palace?
Carbon freezing?
A city in the clouds?
Hero in a pit with a rancor?
Asteroid field escape?
Hiding in a cave that turns out to be a giant space worm?
An attack on an unfinished Death Star / Starkiller base?
Force ghost reunions with Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke?

As I don't want to be wholly negative, I'd like to point out again, there are capable people out there who can write about and direct the Star Wars Universe well, including Gareth Edwards (Rogue One) and Timothy Zahn (author of several decent EU novels, and currently in charge of Star Wars Rebels).

Re Rey, I'm pretty sure it's her first name. IIRC, in Star Wars heroes are always referred to by their first names, unless there is a rank / occupational prefix (eg General Kenobi / Veers, Senator/Chancellor Palpatine, etc).

 

[MacDawg]

I didn't particularly object to killing off Luke (or Han or eventually Leia for that matter)
I just objected to the manner in which it was done, particularly Luke
Either give them a glorious death befitting our heroes, or better start the reboot after their deaths and don't include them at all and let us remember them the way they were
It would have made more sense to me to have had them live out their lives in the empire they restored and THEN have it collapse later and need another rebel force
Instead, it appeared their victory in Return of the Jedi was short lived and they have been running ever since

It was lazy writing from an uninspired vision of the Star Wars universe

 

[Number-Six]

I don't remember that, and I have seen it twice (once with friends who grew up with Star Wars, and once with my kids).

Others may be able to assist us with this. I won't be going to see this movie again.

I notice you strongly support TLJ on here. What did you think of Rogue One?
[doublepost=1515406630][/doublepost]

Given the dearth of originality in TFA and TLJ, I wonder what JJ Abrams will be plagiarising for Ep 9?
Ewok battle?
visit to Jabba the Hut's palace?
Carbon freezing?
A city in the clouds?
Hero in a pit with a rancor?
Asteroid field escape?
Hiding in a cave that turns out to be a giant space worm?
An attack on an unfinished Death Star / Starkiller base?
Force ghost reunions with Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke?

As I don't want to be wholly negative, I'd like to point out again, there are capable people out there who can write about and direct the Star Wars Universe well, including Gareth Edwards (Rogue One) and Timothy Zahn (author of several decent EU novels, and currently in charge of Star Wars Rebels).

Re Rey, I'm pretty sure it's her first name. IIRC, in Star Wars heroes are always referred to by their first names, unless there is a rank / occupational prefix (eg General Kenobi / Veers, Senator/Chancellor Palpatine, etc).

I'll have to re-watch it again for the exact quote.

As for Rogue One, I really liked it the first couple of times I saw it, but I feel like it won't be as enjoyable to watch for years to come (some exceptions: K2SO will probably always be enjoyable, as well as Vaders rampage). As much as I love K2SO in the movie, it's not an original character. It's a copy of HK-47, he's just not ending his sentences with "meatbag".

I did enjoy TLJ, TFA too. I was entertained for most of the movies run time, which is a lot more than you can say for a lot of movies these days. Are there some parts I do not like? Sure, but that's where DVD watching is fun, you can easily skip the parts you hate

TPM even becomes quite entertaining after you skip all the bad stuff, although quite a bit shorter

 

[Huntn]

I'll have to re-watch it again for the exact quote.

As for Rogue One, I really liked it the first couple of times I saw it, but I feel like it won't be as enjoyable to watch for years to come (some exceptions: K2SO will probably always be enjoyable, as well as Vaders rampage). As much as I love K2SO in the movie, it's not an original character. It's a copy of HK-47, he's just not ending his sentences with "meatbag".

I did enjoy TLJ, TFA too. I was entertained for most of the movies run time, which is a lot more than you can say for a lot of movies these days. Are there some parts I do not like? Sure, but that's where DVD watching is fun, you can easily skip the parts you hate

TPM even becomes quite entertaining after you skip all the bad stuff, although quite a bit shorter

RO as the Episode 3 prequel, reinforces the original trilogy wonderfully.

 

[whooleytoo]

I still love the symbolism in the handing over of the light sabre at the end of TFA.

It's not just Rey handing the sabre to Luke, it's also one director passing the baton to the next. "Let's see what you do with this universe". What does he do? It gets chucked away with a "meh" comment. Seems fitting.

I like the humour, and there's some spectacular scenes. But I still think it's a weak, cobbled together collection of scenes/stories. Given all the planet-sized weapons and hyperspace jumping in the SW universe, a ship running out of fuel as it's being chased around a system just seems weak; more suited to lower/'harder' sci-fi universes like Stargate Universe/Atlantis or BSG. (All of which have done similar 'being chased and running out of fuel/air' storylines, IIRC).
[doublepost=1515425145][/doublepost]

RO as the Episode 3 prequel, reinforces the original trilogy wonderfully.

Yup, I love it.

I love how it adds some needed flavour to the SW universe: the rebels aren't just brave heroes, but have had to get their hands dirty too in order to win. And showing the Death Star's destruction from the target planet's surface makes it far more real and menacing than the "zip-pop-lots of rocks go flying" sequence in Episode 4 (or the entire Republic being wiped out in a few seconds in TFA).

 

[Huntn]

I still love the symbolism in the handing over of the light sabre at the end of TFA.

It's not just Rey handing the sabre to Luke, it's also one director passing the baton to the next. "Let's see what you do with this universe". What does he do? It gets chucked away with a "meh" comment. Seems fitting.

I like the humour, and there's some spectacular scenes. But I still think it's a weak, cobbled together collection of scenes/stories. Given all the planet-sized weapons and hyperspace jumping in the SW universe, a ship running out of fuel as it's being chased around a system just seems weak; more suited to lower/'harder' sci-fi universes like Stargate Universe/Atlantis or BSG. (All of which have done similar 'being chased and running out of fuel/air' storylines, IIRC).
[doublepost=1515425145][/doublepost]

Yup, I love it.

I love how it adds some needed flavour to the SW universe: the rebels aren't just brave heroes, but have had to get their hands dirty too in order to win. And showing the Death Star's destruction from the target planet's surface makes it far more real and menacing than the "zip-pop-lots of rocks go flying" sequence in Episode 4 (or the entire Republic being wiped out in a few seconds in TFA).

One thing I did not get from TLJ is the bad guys (Snoke and Ren) as part of this huge menacing force, who basically took over the entire Republic? Is a wall of text supposed to fill in the narrative of how we got from Hurrah Victory, Happy DAYS, dancing, hugs! to Flashback Been There, Done This Already.

 

[whooleytoo]

One thing I did not get from TLJ is the bad guys (Snoke and Ren) as part of this huge menacing force, who basically took over the entire Republic? Is a wall of text supposed to fill in the narrative of how we got from Hurrah Victory, Happy DAYS, dancing, hugs! to Flashback Been There, Done This Already.

You mean how we got from the final victory in Episode 6 to evil being back in charge in Episode 7?

Well, they have to fit the next Sequel-Prequel in somewhere! Episode 6.5: Snoke - A Star Wars Story.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I'll have to re-watch it again for the exact quote.

As for Rogue One, I really liked it the first couple of times I saw it, but I feel like it won't be as enjoyable to watch for years to come (some exceptions: K2SO will probably always be enjoyable, as well as Vaders rampage). As much as I love K2SO in the movie, it's not an original character. It's a copy of HK-47, he's just not ending his sentences with "meatbag".

I did enjoy TLJ, TFA too. I was entertained for most of the movies run time, which is a lot more than you can say for a lot of movies these days. Are there some parts I do not like? Sure, but that's where DVD watching is fun, you can easily skip the parts you hate

TPM even becomes quite entertaining after you skip all the bad stuff, although quite a bit shorter

Quite a bit shorter? Isn't it just the final battle between Darth Maul and the Jedi?

 

[Number-Six]

Quite a bit shorter? Isn't it just the final battle between Darth Maul and the Jedi?

Well, a bit longer than that

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

TPM even becomes quite entertaining after you skip all the bad stuff, although quite a bit shorter

TPM does have some good moments and scenes. It does add to the franchise, you just have to get past all the scenes with JarJar Binks and the young Anakin Skywalker.

George Lucas had a great idea in creating Star Wars, but he was not great at writing dialogue for his actors to deliver. I think TPM actually demonstrates what talented actors can do with a weak script. Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Ian McDiarmid do brilliantly. In particular, McGregor and Neeson, in my view, make a strong contribution to the franchise.

I also think their final confrontation with Maul, and the music 'duel of the fates' was brilliant.

 

[mscriv]

We saw The Last Jedi again with a different part of our family when they were visiting over the holidays. I enjoyed it much more the second time. I'm a lifelong fan of the franchise as I grew up with the originals. However, I'm not a fanatic per se as many others are. With that being said, I am married to a woman who is more on that fanatic side. She has read many if not all of the books that have been written as a part of the canon. We have two boys and they watch the cartoons and read as well.

So, for all of you who are saying that the story seems disjointed and parts are missing, I would remind you that the Star Wars Universe and the official "canon" of the story crosses multiple media formats including movies, cartoons, books, comics games, etc. If you are only watching the movies, like me, then you are certainly missing parts of the story.

 

[Apple fanboy]

We saw The Last Jedi again with a different part of our family when they were visiting over the holidays. I enjoyed it much more the second time. I'm a lifelong fan of the franchise as I grew up with the originals. However, I'm not a fanatic per se as many others are. With that being said, I am married to a woman who is more on that fanatic side. She has read many if not all of the books that have been written as a part of the canon. We have two boys and they watch the cartoons and read as well.

So, for all of you who are saying that the story seems disjointed and parts are missing, I would remind you that the Star Wars Universe and the official "canon" of the story crosses multiple media formats including movies, cartoons, books, comics games, etc. If you are only watching the movies, like me, then you are certainly missing parts of the story.

But Disney have dropped the books and stuff from original canon. Which if like me you've been reading them for years, is hard to forget.

 

[maflynn]

But Disney have dropped the books and stuff from original canon. Which if like me you've been reading them for years, is hard to forget.

I'm glad they did, I mean dropping the old canon, calling it legends. The star wars universe was so fleshed out in such detail, there was no way to jump start the movie franchise. Plus some of the stuff that occured in the legends universe was just down right crazy like the world brain

 

[rhett7660]

I actually wish they would have killed Leia off with the blast to the command room instead of having her Mary Poppin it back into the ship. Or having her stay behind to take out the command staff of the big bad bad-guys!

 

[Huntn]

I'm glad they did, I mean dropping the old canon, calling it legends. The star wars universe was so fleshed out in such detail, there was no way to jump start the movie franchise. Plus some of the stuff that occured in the legends universe was just down right crazy like the world brain

Even so, it’s not like Disney is forging into new territory with the current trilogy so far that would require killing off cannon. Maybe eventually, after they are done milking the original trilogy to the last drop.
[doublepost=1515515730][/doublepost]

We saw The Last Jedi again with a different part of our family when they were visiting over the holidays. I enjoyed it much more the second time. I'm a lifelong fan of the franchise as I grew up with the originals. However, I'm not a fanatic per se as many others are. With that being said, I am married to a woman who is more on that fanatic side. She has read many if not all of the books that have been written as a part of the canon. We have two boys and they watch the cartoons and read as well.

So, for all of you who are saying that the story seems disjointed and parts are missing, I would remind you that the Star Wars Universe and the official "canon" of the story crosses multiple media formats including movies, cartoons, books, comics games, etc. If you are only watching the movies, like me, then you are certainly missing parts of the story.

...but old canon was flushed, so they say, so big holes exist... I think.

 

[mscriv]

But Disney have dropped the books and stuff from original canon. Which if like me you've been reading them for years, is hard to forget.

I'm glad they did, I mean dropping the old canon, calling it legends. The star wars universe was so fleshed out in such detail, there was no way to jump start the movie franchise. Plus some of the stuff that occured in the legends universe was just down right crazy like the world brain

...but old canon was flushed, so they say, so big holes exist... I think.

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the canon has been "pruned". They took out parts they didn't think fit well and have added some new stuff. For example, there are books that have been written in the recent past that are considered canon and Disney is behind one of the cartoons currently running and it is considered canon from what I've been told. My wife and oldest son both just read Thrawn, which is a book that only came out last year.

My main point is that casual fans who only watch the big screen movies are not getting every part of the story in full detail.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I'm glad they did, I mean dropping the old canon, calling it legends. The star wars universe was so fleshed out in such detail, there was no way to jump start the movie franchise. Plus some of the stuff that occured in the legends universe was just down right crazy like the world brain

I hear what you are saying, but maybe they through the baby out with the bath water.
[doublepost=1515522570][/doublepost]

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the canon has been "pruned". They took out parts they didn't think fit well and have added some new stuff. For example, there are books that have been written in the recent past that are considered canon and Disney is behind one of the cartoons currently running and it is considered canon from what I've been told. My wife and oldest son both just read Thrawn, which is a book that only came out last year.

My main point is that casual fans who only watch the big screen movies are not getting every part of the story in full detail.

The Thrawn trilogy was a great series from the original Cannon. One of the best actually.

 

[maflynn]

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that the canon has been "pruned".

Disney is definitely taking some things from legends, but I wouldn't calling it pruning. That is, I think most of it was discarded but bits of the universe has been embraced by disney.

 

[sevvere]

What’s sad is that that YouTube is full of theories of how everything will tie together in the end and trying to grasp at some hidden purpose and meaning behind all the plot holes and inconsistencies .... and a lot of them are actually really interesting and great.

But the truth is, I think, that these people have put way more effort into trying to SAVE the new Star Wars trilogy, then the actual writers and directors did in making it.

I have no prior bias or anticipation when watching Last Jedi. I knew from the very start, when Hux and Poe had that awkward, out of character, forced, and contrived exchange that it wasn’t looking good. I also felt like Poe’s disobedience was out of character. As Leia was motionless in space ... for that brief moment ... I thought ... “No... no ... they aren’t .... no way ...” and then the hands moved ... and i though “Are you FU...........” and she started flying and i knew that all my lingering suspicions that had been festering throughout the movie beforehand was confirmed.

The whole Holdo thing was disgraceful. The SJW movement is so blind to their own insanity that they act in ways that counteract their agenda and nobody within the movement has the onions to point it out because it is a cult and the mob will turn on them. Holdo’s character was 100% SJW propaganda. All Holdo did by her actions was REINFORCE the negative stereotype of women in leadership roles .. that they are a b***ch. Because, that’s exactly what Holdo turned out looking like. Leia trusted Poe so much that she sent him out to find Luke’s map in a super top secret mission (that Poe then arbitrarily told to Finn, a complete stranger who was a Stormtrooper ... but lets just forget about that). Then Holdo turns around and treats him like some entry level noob. She chastises him for questioning her when her actions were blatantly suspicious and harmful. THe truth is the whole story line around the ship and the plan to escape was so horribly ridden with plot holes that none of it really made any sense. All Holdo had to do was tell Poe, Leia’st most trusted member of the Resistence. There is NO REASON why she couldn’t. Her character was written NOT TO ... because she had to look strong and stand up to the patriarchy. Then, she had to look like a hero for doing it, by staying on the ship in the end.

To be honest, I really don’t care about episode 9. Rey got the affirmative action Jedi package handed to her. Finn is a clown. I have no clue what Poe is anymore, a heroic pilot or a dumb, flaky sexist. Luke is gone. Smoke is gone. Darth Vader Jr. is not scary and never was, and I don’t care about him either. Rose is boring, but at least she saved the animals .... but didn’t save the slave kids (again, the extreme left do not even realize their own insanity when trying to push their narratives). I don’t care about ANYONE anymore.

It’s a shame, but hey, its just a movie. But hopefully, this movie will RED PILL people to open their eyes and realize how everything SJW’s touch turns to crap.

 

[BarracksSi]

(dunno why the term “SJW” entered into this with such anger, but whatevs...)

Anyway...

Twitter thread suggesting why Luke had to die — and avoid directly fighting — the way he did.

https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/950394363384807424

 

[Mac'nCheese]

(dunno why the term “SJW” entered into this with such anger, but whatevs...)

Anyway...

Twitter thread suggesting why Luke had to die — and avoid directly fighting — the way he did.

https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/950394363384807424

Just going off on twitter for a second....I hate twitter. This guy had to tweet how many times to make his point? Why can't this just be a facebook post? I just don't get twitter. If you want to do a quick thought great but tweets like this...just annoying. Ok, I'm done.

 

[ActionableMango]

I didn't realize there was so much hate for the new movies. I think they are enormously better than the prequels in almost every way.

So although the new movies have their problems, I think they are a step up in quality for Star Wars... a HUGE step up, IMHO.