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I fight for truth
Alright Mr. Fights-For-Truth (ad hominem, I flat out don't care; I can throw all of my degrees right back at you, but it's a waste of time, as many other folks have debunked your pseudo-philosophizing with actual hypotheses and solid data, but you don't care), I'm just wondering why you joined Macrumors 3 days ago and when you self-admittedly hate the iPhone, and have never shown a disposition to "fight for truth" and fight against "half-truths" here before?

Is this a pattern that all of us tenured MR members are going to have to get used to?

Or will you slink away after Jobs & Co. release an update in the very near future, identifying how their software, in conjunction with the new design has a major flaw that is addressed in the update?
 
So you are saying, software fix possible?

I don't have access to the firmware part of the source code tree, unfortunately. I know they're working hard at trying everything to get an usable signal from the antenna when the GSM signal behaves in a way that that makes user-induced antenna detuning probable (they have to make sure to get this part right to avoid false-positives, otherwise they could introduce unexpected behaviour happening in normal signal situations). If they come up with something stable, it will be a workaround with a good percentage of efficiency (not 100% though), possibly good enough to make this a real non-issue. Altough many cited that rumor, I don't expect a related iOS update on monday.
 
Yes, it is. You attacked me because I studied history and philosophy in grad school. Not that it matters, but I'm a phi beta kappa CS graduate. My science kicks the crap out of your science, because my science is pure science (CS is a subset of mathematics and not really engineering, though some schools have moved departments there, I have too much respect for engineers to call a programmer a software engineer).

When you argue, avoid personal attacks, and any reference to the person you are arguing with, or you lose the argument based on the ad hominem fallacy.

Focus on the argument, and you will not go astray.

OK oh wise one. Please explain something to me. Last night I was at a party and there were 11 i4's. I stood in the same spot and held each of them one at a time. I saw the problem happen on 5 of them and could not make it happen on 6. I used the exact same fingers, same hand, same location - everything else was the same. All 11 owners passed the phones around and we all got the same results.

How can you say we need more data before know this is a real problem. It has been demonstrated time and time again that this is happening.

And before you ask, I have no idea where the cell tower is nor do I give a flying flip. What I do know is I was in the same spot and all I had to do was to hold the phones a certain way.
 
OK oh wise one. Please explain something to me. Last night I was at a party and there were 11 i4's. I stood in the same spot and held each of them one at a time. I saw the problem happen on 5 of them and could not make it happen on 6. I used the exact same fingers, same hand, same location - everything else was the same. All 11 owners passed the phones around and we all got the same results.

How can you say we need more data before know this is a real problem.

So you are sure that all of these iPhone 4 units were charged to the exact same (sub-)percentage of battery?
 
Folks, it really is not that unreasonable to change how you hold your phone temporarily. They're already working on a fix (though I am personally a bit skeptical about it) and your phones ARE under warranty; be glad that Apple is at least trying to figure it out and the fact they're more hush hush about things is so that when they fix it they will hopefully also discuss EXACTLY what went wrong...

Think of the Red Ring of Death...
 
Check this blog post out, I've taken the liberty of quoting it.

Source: http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/6/26/hey-hold-the-phone-like-this.html




Hey, Hold the Phone!! (Like this...)
SATURDAY, JUNE 26, 2010 AT 9:34AM


I hit a nerve on Friday.

The iPhone 4 antenna controversy was way bigger than I realized. The traffic to this site was incredible, and the extent of the blogs and news sites that picked up my comments was humbling. I also did four telephone interviews, including the Wall Street Journal - they asked for photos, so we had some fun. And yes, I did call it the "Vulcan iPhone Pinch". And no, Leonard Nimoy has not called.

I received many emails, too. The overwhelming tone of the email was very friendly; I wish I could respond to all of them immediately, but I am afraid that will have to wait. I will try to touch on the topics raised in some of the emails in this blog entry.

First off, I still don't have my iPhone 4 yet. Sigh. I am waiting patiently, so keep in mind that all my comments are based upon my experience with designing embedded antennas, and not with the specific antennas in question. I promise to post my first-hand experiences here once mine arrives. Also, I don't have any Apple-specific information that you don't have access to. I am not a consultant to Apple, and have never been; I don't even play one on TV. I don't have an axe to grind. Nor an iPhone 4 to play with. But, I digress...

I have seen mention of the electrical tape fix, the scotch tape fix, the bumper case fix, even the short-the-other slot fix on various web sites. The important thing to realize is that we are dealing with radio frequency (RF) currents in the antenna, not direct current (DC) as you will find in a flashlight, for example. If you place a thin insulator (tape) across the "gap" and over the "band" on the iPhone 4, I would not expect that to make a very big difference. With such a thin insulator you are effectively preventing a short at DC (zero Hertz), but at the RF frequencies involved (around 1GHz, or one billion Hertz) you are just making a large capacitor. A capacitor is fundamentally two conducting plates separated by an insulator. When the capacitance is high enough (plates big, insulator thin) at the frequencies in question, it looks just like a short circuit. So, I would not expect tape to create any improvement when the Grip Of Death is used (see photo).

When I was on the phone with the WSJ, I explained the two distinct effects that holding the phone over the antennas will impart: detuning and attenuation.

Detuning can be understood by imagining a wine glass that is empty. If we tap the glass with a fork, the glass will ring, or resonate, at some frequency. If we put some wine in it (or apple cider, since I don't imbibe) the resonant frequency will change and in this case increase. This is the same for antennas. Antennas are generally resonant at their frequencies of operation, and when we put our hand over them we "load" them with the dielectric of our bag of salty water. This lowers the resonant frequency of the antenna and may make it harder to squirt energy into it at the frequency we want. If the antenna is particularly narrow-band, it may "kill" it completely. Generally, physically small (compared to a wavelength) antennas are narrow-band and large antennas may be wide-band. This is why detuning is the first detrimental effect of putting your hand on an antenna. Any antenna.

The second effect is attenuation, or loss. Your hand is a dielectric, meaning it concentrates electric fields more than air. This factor is called the dielectric constant, and for your hand is pretty high, like 12 or 20 or so. It depends on your diet and BMI, so it's kind of personal and I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable by dwelling on it; the important thing is to be healthy. Oh... right.... so this is what detunes the antenna. But, your hand is also conductive, but not perfectly so. So you WILL get a shock if you stick your thumb in a light socket, and I don't recommend it. This not-so-perfect conductor is what we call "lossy". RF energy impinging upon your hand (or head) is partially going to be turned into heat. This is the SAR we were talking about, and you may have heard of. This leads to an attenuation (reduction) in the signal being radiated into space by the antenna. This is the other bad thing that happens to hand-wrapped antennas. Once turned to heat, the RF energy is gone. Just ask your dinner in the microwave.

So, detuning causes problems with squeezing energy from the circuitry into the antenna (or vice versa), and attenuation causes problems with losing energy to heat.

The so-called bumper case is a much thicker insulator (or dielectric) than a piece of tape. It pushes the lossy dielectric (your hand) further away, significantly reducing the capacitance. I would expect this to reduce the detuning effect, but not the attenuating effect. Will it help? You betcha'. However, it is a tradeoff: pushing a very high dielectric constant but lossy material away, and substituting it with a lower dielectric constant material. If I were a betting man, I would guess that the dielectric constant of the materials used is about 3.3. So, it still will load the antenna, but not as much; and it is entirely possible that this was taken into consideration in the design of the antenna. Since I have had a case on my Primordial iPhone since it was new, I expect to do the same with the iPhone 4. When it gets here. Any time now.

Now I want to rant a bit about the "experimental method" people have been using. The iPhone 4 has been out for roughly 24 hours before people were publishing the results of "tests" proving that it had inferior performance. At my company, when I get to hook my fancy laboratory gear up to my client's equipment in very controlled circumstances I can't do it that fast. Folks, there are a couple of reasons that you need to give this product some time before jumping to conclusions.

First, we have no earthly idea what those little bars in the upper left corner of our screen really represent, yet we are staring at them like they're going to help us find out what those damn numbers on LOST meant. Steve Gibson of Gibson Research (grc.com) did a great piece on the meaning of the signal bars; I am a huge fan of his, and his measured approach to technical challenges are worthy of our respect. We don't know what the bars mean, beyond more is better and less is ... less better. We also don't have a handle on the time constant of the bars, which is to say we don't know when the bars change with respect to when the signal changes. And worse, we don't know if it's consistent. After all, it's controlled by software.

Secondly, the cellular system is composed of many cell sites. While you are making observations, you have no idea whether your iPhone is staying on one cell site, or switching between several. This will completely obfuscate any measurements, even if you decided that the bars are useful. In the good old days, when cell phones worked on steam, there was usually a service screen you can hack your way to which would show which site you're on, and how strong it was in real engineering terms (dBm). I have never seen that capability on the iPhone (but, I didn't look too hard). Such a capability would be hugely helpful in our experiments.

So, how do we evaluate the performance with these limitations? The answer is: over more time, in more situations. You need to observe more bars in more places. (I know, cheap shot.) Give it a couple of weeks. Use it like you used your last phone. If it doesn't make you happy, return it to Apple. But, give it a chance, and 24 hours ain't it.

Several reporters wrote that I "blame the FCC for the iPhone antenna problems." Well, I did say "it's the FCC's fault", but I was a bit glib. It's the whole process that drives the design (I did say that, too), and part of that process is the tests the phones must pass. And the FCC could care less whether your phone drops your calls in the middle of a conversation or not; they care about protecting the "spectrum" and safety. AT&T does care about efficiency, but they assume your hand is made of styrofoam. Apple cares about striking a balance between product coolness (you'll buy it) and product efficacy (you'll keep it). All of these pressures lead a product to the end point. And then the unpredictable takes over anyway, so enjoy the ride.

So, why didn't Apple do it differently? That's a question I thought about through several showers. I have finally boiled it down to one thing: any performance improvement would have made the iPhone 4 bigger. Period. Apple is putting ten pounds of stuff in a five-pound bag. Put air space around the antenna to make it less sensitive to the presence of the human hand? Fuggetaboutit. Air doesn't sell phones. Gyroscopes, accelerometers, high resolution screens, multiple cellular carrier capability (did I say that?), and big batteries.... that's what the people want.

You just gotta hold it like this.

By Spencer Webb
 
Well, I can try. You were all in the same place. Perhaps in that place there was poor cell to begin with? I don't know. But that explains it nicely. Poor cell.

You think that's a nice explanation? That a large percentage of reported users can reproduce this issue, and all had bad cell reception to begin with, despite the fact that the phone reported 5 bars until it dropped to zero? Even if you did then the person who stood under a cell tower discounts that. So then you're explanation has to be that everyone was in poor cell reception, EXCEPT that guy, who just has one defective unit that is defective in just the same way as the 'false' error with the other phones. Your explanation is messy, crude, and arbitrary.

Thats not to pinpoint where the issue is, or exactly how many variables there are. It seems location, and possibly individual people, can cause the issue to varying degrees, but given the amount of evidence in support of the issue, it seems preposterous to deny that ANY issue exists.

Again, I don't think the issue is the end of the world, I think it can be easily avoided, and in fact doesn't come in to play with the way I hold my phone. Still the drop is sudden and quick enough that Apple should address it.
 
If there's one potential source to blame for the "bad press" it of course is Apple. They have created the hoopla about their products, withheld information to basically starve the media into a frenzy, then make even more hoopla with the introduction of whatever product they happen to be shilling at any given time.

Why is this happening, with the iPhone 4?

Because on stage at WWDC weeks ago, the phone failed to deliver in the hands of it's "creator," Steve Jobs himself, and the instant it did all that came from it is "Ok, you people, in the audience, it's your fault, each and every one of you."

Not once did Steve Jobs or anyone acknowledge "HEY WAIT A SECOND... what if the damned phone simply doesn't work right?"

I wonder why that is. Why is everyone always instantly ready to call someone like me - who happens to be an iPhone 4 owner - a troublemaker, a liar, a scoundrel, etc etc just because I choose to speak up and share my experiences with a phone that isn't working as it is and has been and continues to be advertised?

How am I - an iPhone 4 owner - supposed to feel when Steve Jobs himself has problems with the phone, holding it EXACTLY the same way I do, and yet if I send him an email that says "Hey, I appreciate your time, but this phone isn't working when I hold it" and getting slapped across the face verbally when he, the great Steve Jobs himself, says:

"Just avoid holding it in that way."

I've done what I can to relay my experience with this iPhone 4 I have sitting beside me. I can't do more than that. I spoke of my experience and some people said "Hey, that's my experience too" or put up videos as proof of their own experience. Someone commented that none of the testing, not even mine, was valid unless I was standing under a cell site - so I went and stood under a cell site. Did it matter?

No, because people then complain that it's not an official AT&T cell site, which is irrelevant considering cellular providers lease space and even airtime on competitor's towers as required - have none of you people ever heard of ROAMING which is precisely what happens when you're not "on the official network"? It's handled by a competitor for a fee as required and the calls still function.

At least, on phones that can make the calls in the first place which is not my experience with this iPhone 4.

My intention was never to coerce or make people adapt to my beliefs, only to provide information from first-hand experience with this so-called technological marvel, this "magical" device that - in actuality - has turned out to be true to the nature of magic: deceptive, and distracting.

Why do you think "smartphones" have so much crap in them these days? It's to distract people from realizing "Yes it can do almost anything, but it still can't make a decent phone call worth much of anything" for so many of us?

The difference here is the network isn't to blame - "It's the phone, stupid."

YMMV, folks. If they can resolve the software issue with firmware, more power to 'em, but I have my doubts. The hardware issue is an entirely different thing altogether.
 
Well, I can try. You were all in the same place. Perhaps in that place there was poor cell to begin with? I don't know. But that explains it nicely. Poor cell. Either it is as you say... or it could have been poor cell.

So if it was "poor cell" why did it happen on some phones and not others?
 
Check this blog post out, I've taken the liberty of quoting it.

Source: http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys-blog/2010/6/26/hey-hold-the-phone-like-this.html

Interesting, but he seems to be too pro iPhone. He's discounting all the reports. Apparently written only 24 hours after launch, not after days of lots of people recreating the problem.

Its good that he pointed out about detuning vs. attenuation. But he then focused too much on attenuation. Attenuation occurs because your hand is closeby and affects all phones as Jobs said.

But detuning happens most dramatically if you make electrical contact with an antenna. This appears to be the problem with the iPhone 4.
 
Spencer Webb seems to be spot on with all this.. Very informative and good information everyone should be paying attention to...
 
Yeah, no way to know for sure if it wasn't poor cell. Guy didn't even say there were a bunch of non-iphone's there with 5 bars and no issues, which is what I was expecting.. (there were NO other cell phones there but iPhone 4 's?? REALLY?) Even if the phone had 5 bars or whatever, doesn't really mean anything, I wouldn't bet my life on that stupid cell indicator.... I think it lies. Everytime I go to use my phone it has 5 bars, until I try to dial a number, then it goes down to 2. The indicator is a poor reference, but it's all we have, I know.

I'm not saying those iPhones aren't defective. I am saying, by that account, we really have no idea. Another isolated event. Yeah, bunch of iPhones there... but once again, no control, no legitimate evaluation of the actual availability of signal.

I never said there were no other phones there. Stop making stuff up. I'm sure there were other phones there, but the focus of this conversation is the i4 so I did not care about any other phones. What we did was compare apples to apples (pun intended) to see what results we got.

The thing that jumps out from your statement is the "we really have no idea". I'm glad you finally admitted what the rest of us have known about you the entire time. You have no idea.
 
Yeah, no way to know for sure if it wasn't poor cell. Guy didn't even say there were a bunch of non-iphone's there with 5 bars and no issues, which is what I was expecting.. (there were NO other cell phones there but iPhone 4 's?? REALLY?) Even if the phone had 5 bars or whatever, doesn't really mean anything, I wouldn't bet my life on that stupid cell indicator.... I think it lies. Everytime I go to use my phone it has 5 bars, until I try to dial a number, then it goes down to 2. The indicator is a poor reference, but it's all we have, I know.

I'm not saying those iPhones aren't defective. I am saying, by that account, we really have no idea. Another isolated event. Yeah, bunch of iPhones there... but once again, no control, no legitimate evaluation of the actual availability of signal.

And one more thing. Under your "availability of signal" argument, you basically are saying that there was enough signal for all phones to have 5 bars, and then at the exact time you hold the phones on the left side the signal drops enough for 5 phones to drop, but not the other six. Then when you move your hand the signal increases again so that these 5 come back to 5 bars. And then it happens over and over and over like that for the same 5 phones but not the others.

Really??? Really??? Wow!!!
 
Yeah, no way to know for sure if it wasn't poor cell. Guy didn't even say there were a bunch of non-iphone's there with 5 bars and no issues, which is what I was expecting.. (there were NO other cell phones there but iPhone 4 's?? REALLY?) Even if the phone had 5 bars or whatever, doesn't really mean anything, I wouldn't bet my life on that stupid cell indicator.... I think it lies. Everytime I go to use my phone it has 5 bars, until I try to dial a number, then it goes down to 2. The indicator is a poor reference, but it's all we have, I know.

I'm not saying those iPhones aren't defective. I am saying, by that account, we really have no idea. Another isolated event. Yeah, bunch of iPhones there... but once again, no control, no legitimate evaluation of the actual availability of signal.

I just don't understand how you think this line of reasoning is valid. So we see large amounts of iPhone4s dropping cell reception rapid, in a manner that is unlike other phones, all when doing a very specific action (bridging the gap between the two antennas) and the cell reception drops.

A wide variety of people have reported this in areas that seem to be high cell reception, and nearly everyone has seen it happen. Even if it's a bad cell area, the fact that this action causes the phone to drop all reception, when previous phones did not, is a huge issue. It's an easily reproducible test, and has been done so consistently by large numbers of people.

So THAT isn't enough for you, you want all these people to do the same thing in the same spot? I just don't get it. I guess maybe because you haven't seen what the issue is, you're assuming its like any normal cell phone variance, but it's not. It's not a "I pick up my phone and lose a few bars" type thing. It's "I carefully place one finger in one spot and my reception goes from 5 bars to nothing". Actually it's more than that, it's "I run speed test when I'm holding the phone normally without covering the area, and I get 3000kilobits /sec down, then i cover one area and get 300kilobits".

In fact, hows that for you? I've done the test in my apartment, where running a normal speed test I Get 3000 kilobits /sec down. Then I cover the area, and it drops to nearly nothing. That seems to be an indication of good reception, going to bad.

It's also worth noting that I do think there are other variables involved. I can't get it to happen ALL the time in my house, but when I can do it, I can do it repeatedly, leaving me to believe it has to do either with the cell tower I'm connected to, or the moisture on my skin.
 
And one more thing. Under your "availability of signal" argument, you basically are saying that there was enough signal for all phones to have 5 bars, and then at the exact time you hold the phones on the left side the signal drops enough for 5 phones to drop, but not the other six. Then when you move your hand the signal increases again so that these 5 come back to 5 bars. And then it happens over and over and over like that for the same 5 phones but not the others.

Really??? Really??? Wow!!!

Look I'll give him that 5 bars can be misleading, a lot of phones lie, but what about SpeedTest results. Those should be indicators of good signal strength, and yet a lot of people have done SpeedTests not covering the area, and then covering it, and the results are pretty dramatic.
 
AtlasBoy: You're not going to win with chill1n, you won't even make up any ground so, let it go. He professes one thing and preaches something else, and truth is apparently furthest from his position. I would label him as a troll at this point but, that would be a disservice to trolls everywhere...

If truth slapped him across the face - with an iPhone 4 in the hand - he wouldn't notice or even acknowledge it, so don't expend effort, it's just being sucked into the black hole of his existence.
 
Well, I never intended to throw any credentials in your face... it was a response to cmaier claiming to be a PhD in engineering... I have degrees also is the point.
See, the thing is, Cliff doesn't claim to be a PhD in Engineering, he actually is. Here is the link to his bio.

Just from that page, knowing it's one of the top 30 law firms in the world, knowing that he served in a high-level engineering role with a couple of the most cutting edge tech companies in the world, I'm going to put trust in the fact that he probably knows more about this specific phenomenon than you.

He probably can come up with a pretty good hypothesis about it through his years of experience in engineering and utilizing the scientific method, at least more so than a philosophy and history nut like yourself (honestly no disrespect intended, but it seems that you're a little out of your league here).
 
You are misunderstanding what I am saying.

I'm saying we don't know, and using poor cell as an example of why, not the true reason why, which I don't know, but something that might explain what was observed. All I have to do is offer a plausable alternative explanation, which is what I did. I don't have to prove it. The burden of proof is upon those that make the claim, and they have failed every time to meet the burden of proof.

No, it is not clear from this "experiment" that anything conclusive can be said about the iPhone 4's reception.

But it's not a "plausable alternative explanation" (see my post above as to why it's not)

But if you were thinking clearly at the time you would have recognized that the other non-iphones there would have given some more information, and made your case stronger. You could have called the non-iphones a control. But you ignored them. You had no control in this experiment.

And...this was a party, right? So I guess you were all just singing Christian songs and sharing stories? We know what you were doing. We do it too. But not when we do science.

There you go making stuff up again because your ideas don't hold water. You don't know sh$t about what I was doing. For the record I've been sober for years as have many people who were there. I think your the one who said that you only need to attack someone when you can't defend your position (i'm paraphrasing).
 
No, I'm not saying the signal was fluctuating... but that's a good point, maybe it was.

I'm saying that maybe we put way too much faith in signal indicators. It probably has something to do with the amount of available signal... but exactly what? idk. It's always been wonky for me with every phone. Once, I remember having 4 bars, but not enough signal to make a call. I couldn't believe my eyes... until i realized that maybe the indicator was giving me a false, or an old reading.

I'm saying I am skeptical. Your experiment doesn't change my skepticism. However, if the whole party was like bb's account, and you were all under a cell tower, and you DID include those non-iphones in your data, we could have used your account as meaningful. But as it stands, it's no better than most of the other so called "evidence," from both sides of the argument.

What about SpeedTest, that seems more reliable to me than even standing near a tower, since you don't know that you are for sure connected to that tower. Running a SpeedTest should give you EXACTLY how good of a connection you have, and then re-running it moments later should be a good indication of what percentage you gained or lost.
 
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Funny...after reading several posts, this is exactly how you come off.

Hopefully Apple is not as obtuse as you are and will actually look into the problem.

For all your degrees you seem to lack common sense.

Out of all the users who have been posting videos and complaining about complete signal loss when holding the phone a certain way, the probability is high that these individuals have owned cell phones before, and I'm sure a number of them owned previous versions of the iPhone.

Now if these users have not changed one thing in the way they hold and use their phones, and these new iPhone 4's are losing signal, then it doesn't require a degree to realize that something is terribly wrong.

As for why anyone needs to bring data to you, however, is beyond me. You can't do anything about it, and your acknowledgement of a problem is pointless.

Therefore, the fact that you continue to spew out your nonsense and throw common sense out the window means that you are either most likely someone trolling for attention or have somehow become mildly retarded...either way, you're not quite right in the head.
 
You're saying that our truth (for each of us reporting the issues) - our first-hand experience, literally, with an iPhone 4 in our hands and loss of signal/service - is somehow trumped by your truth - you don't own an iPhone 4, probably haven't touched one or even seen one up close yet (if you have you sure as hell haven't stated as such), so you have nothing, absolutely nothing.

And yet we're still the ones that are clueless... anybody else thinks that makes any sense at all? Even outside The Reality Distortion Field his first gen iPhone is so obviously creating?

Anyone?
 
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