Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[BenRoethig]

Yes because the Wintel world is clearly gaining share over Apple right now isn't it? ...or is that just a future prediction ?

Actually its more or less the reversing of clientelle. iPod users are switching from their Dells and HPs to Mac, while Apple is going out of its way to alienate traditional Mac users. What would rather the Mac be the computer of the best and brightest or the computer of those who would rather snowboard and play Xbox games and Paintball all rather than get a career? Than again, it is actually possible to have both.

Uh, we've been through this a zillion times. There is no "converter" from USB-to-Firewire, if that's what you mean. FW800-to-FW400, yes, but nothing that will give you support for Firewire devices on the new Macbooks.

Technically there is one, its its very limited in use and it only works on windows.

 

[cube]

That's not a converter. It's a DV capture device.

 

[sushi]

That's not a converter. It's a DV capture device.

Is this the one that you are talking about?

 

[cube]

Yes.

 

[myca]

Actually its more or less the reversing of clientelle. iPod users are switching from their Dells and HPs to Mac, while Apple is going out of its way to alienate traditional Mac users. What would rather the Mac be the computer of the best and brightest or the computer of those who would rather snowboard and play Xbox games and Paintball all rather than get a career? Than again, it is actually possible to have both.

I can't see why it can't be possible to have both markets, after all most of the iLife apps that are supposed to make computing enjoyable and fun stem from the "Pro" apps.

Final Cut=iMove
Logic=Garageband
DVD Studio=iDVD
Filemaker=Bento

And as a layman in programming (bit of applescript here and there) it seems to make sense to me to create the powerful and complex "Pro" apps and then use the codebase to make the consumer friendly simplified apps that you don't need a degree in to use. And saying this, one thing I enjoy about the "Pro" apps is that they themselves are generally very easy to use.

If Apple did ever decide to drop the "Pro" user I think their innovation would suffer, to the cost of the average user.

 

[localoid]

...
If Apple did ever decide to drop the "Pro" user I think their innovation would suffer, to the cost of the average user.

Let's recap. For anyone wanting to use Firewire for audio purposes: The new MacBook doesn't have Firewire. The new 15" MacBook Pro has a Firewire chip that probably won't work with many of the Firewire audio devices currently in use. Using the expresscard slot Firewire card may not even work (for audio). So, unless you like buying old technology there is no Apple laptop that one can buy today that they can trust to "just work" with their Firewire equipment. And there's no indication that any Mac laptop will ever be made in future years that would "just work" with their Firewire audio devices.

There's no "if" or "when" to it -- anyone needing a Mac laptop with (working) Firewire to create audio (either pro or hobbyist) has already been dropped by Apple.

 

[danny_w]

Let's recap. For anyone wanting to use Firewire for audio purposes: The new MacBook doesn't have Firewire. The new 15" MacBook Pro has a Firewire chip that probably won't work with many of the Firewire audio devices currently in use. Using the expresscard slot Firewire card may not even work (for audio). So, unless you like buying old technology there is no Apple laptop that one can buy today that they can trust to "just work" with their Firewire equipment. And there's no indication that any Mac laptop will ever be made in future years that would "just work" with their Firewire audio devices.

There's no "if" or "when" to it -- anyone needing a Mac laptop with (working) Firewire to create audio (either pro or hobbyist) has already been dropped by Apple.

I think this is the point that still has not gotten through to a lot of people. Everywhere I go for live music now I see Apple laptops on stage. I wonder how much longer that will last considering what has just happened? I don't know how big the market is, and Apple may be choosing to ignore the market because it is not big enough for them, but it is a very visible market that has probably sold a lot of Apple equipment in the past. Now that won't happen. Similarly to the video labs in schools, by ignoring the market Apple is cutting out a lot of potential users that might otherwise get hooked and buy Apple products. It seems to me to be a very shortsighted decision.

 

[BenRoethig]

I can't see why it can't be possible to have both markets, after all most of the iLife apps that are supposed to make computing enjoyable and fun stem from the "Pro" apps.

Final Cut=iMove
Logic=Garageband
DVD Studio=iDVD
Filemaker=Bento

And as a layman in programming (bit of applescript here and there) it seems to make sense to me to create the powerful and complex "Pro" apps and then use the codebase to make the consumer friendly simplified apps that you don't need a degree in to use. And saying this, one thing I enjoy about the "Pro" apps is that they themselves are generally very easy to use.

If Apple did ever decide to drop the "Pro" user I think their innovation would suffer, to the cost of the average user.

I think innovation has suffered. It's been replaced by thinness and glossy screens. The last machine to offer any real innovation was the MacPro. A tool-free design with easy access to the hard drives, optical drives, and PCI-E cards is something I can use. An iMac that you have to take almost completely apart to replace the hard drive just to make it slimmer is not.
Most of the attempts innovation are hampered by design requirements.

I think this is the point that still has not gotten through to a lot of people. Everywhere I go for live music now I see Apple laptops on stage. I wonder how much longer that will last considering what has just happened? I don't know how big the market is, and Apple may be choosing to ignore the market because it is not big enough for them, but it is a very visible market that has probably sold a lot of Apple equipment in the past. Now that won't happen. Similarly to the video labs in schools, by ignoring the market Apple is cutting out a lot of potential users that might otherwise get hooked and buy Apple products. It seems to me to be a very shortsighted decision.

The one thing I have noticed of late that unlike Mac OS X, Apple doesn't seem very good at multi-tasking. It seems like everything goes in cycles. A Couple years ago it was all about the pro apps, now its all about the consumers. To be honest, I don't think its shortsightedness as much as arrogance. I think they listen to the ones who think Apple can do no wrong. They are so convinced of their own superiority that they cannot fathom any leaving. I'm sure in their minds, Apple thinks they're making the best products. Of course their ideas and those in the more profession arenas (and no I don't mean the super high markets that need a Mac Pro) don't quite line up.

 

[NT1440]

not to be ignorant, but why wouldnt the new pro's firewire work?

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

not to be ignorant, but why wouldnt the new pro's firewire work?

It's a crappy chipset (apple skimping on hardware in a $2,000 laptop.) that doesn't work with a ton of existing (mostly audio) equipment.

 

[NT1440]

It's a crappy chipset (apple skimping on hardware in a $2,000 laptop.) that doesn't work with a ton of existing (mostly audio) equipment.

What keeps it from working?

 

[BenRoethig]

What keeps it from working?

Compatibility issues. The Texas Instruments chip is of higher quality.

 

[NT1440]

Compatibility issues. The Texas Instruments chip is of higher quality.

Higher quality, compared to lower quality (the current chipset), or higher quality compared to faulty?

 

[robanga]

Actually its more or less the reversing of clientelle. iPod users are switching from their Dells and HPs to Mac, while Apple is going out of its way to alienate traditional Mac users. What would rather the Mac be the computer of the best and brightest or the computer of those who would rather snowboard and play Xbox games and Paintball all rather than get a career? Than again, it is actually possible to have both.

I'll buy that. The share is obviously coming from iPod, iPhone and other consumers. Alienating the traditional base? Ok, some of the traditional base no doubt. I'd love to see a customer satisfaction survey on that, one could be done on years with Apple etc.

 

[Tosser]

Higher quality, compared to lower quality (the current chipset), or higher quality compared to faulty?

Higher quality compared to "not working with many firewire devices" (i.e. not working at all, dropping frames, dropping bits, introducing "clicks" and on and on).

Personally, I consider the Lucent/Agere (it's the name of the inferior one) chipset faulty, although it's not the individual chipset which is faulty, but rather the design of it, making none of them work for a lot of devices. In other words: They might as well have dropped the physical port entirely, as the switch to the agere chipset makes the firewire port useless making the firewire non-existant in all practicality, just as on the little MacBook.

 

[sinser]

Uh, we've been through this a zillion times. There is no "converter" from USB-to-Firewire, if that's what you mean. FW800-to-FW400, yes, but nothing that will give you support for Firewire devices on the new Macbooks.

Yeah, please stop confusing people, there's no USB to FW converter.

 

[cheesymogul]

Also, as to Steve's comment about HD camcorders, Apple has been SERIOUSLY pushing AVCHD/flash-based camcorders since they started appearing a couple years ago.

I would call your statement a flat out lie – but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply don't know any better!

Here are the sad facts:
- AVCHD support for FCP was not available before June 07...!
- iMovie 08 was released in August 07!!
- And FCE which would be the primary target market for the Macbook (serious amateurs) finally arrived in February 08!!!!!

No, au contraire Apple's AVCHD support has been notoriously lousy and came several years too late for abandoning the huge Firewire user base already.
The only reason most of them bought a HDV cam, was exactly because of Apple's lack of AVCHD software support!!!!

Unfortunately even today Apple's AVCHD support looks quite different than the Kool Aid drunks living in their rosy dreamworld want us to believe.
Just read the following Macworld article titled "Tapeless camcorders are not a Mac's best friend" and get your facts straight:
http://www.macworld.com/article/133790/2008/06/camcorder.html?t=226

 

[fletch33]

nevermind

man this is a tough thread LOL

im outta this one

 

[cube]

i have not read this entire 100 page thread so this may have already been discussed but it seems to me that if you are using something that needs firewire then you are most likely not using something small and portable like a mp3 player or compact digital camera. this being the case then why would you care that you would need something like this to connect your firewire device to? of course that is just one example of the many types and sizes of firewire/usb hubs available.

i have the aluminum macbook now but had a black one before and my black macbook had firewire but it was 400.

so if you have to use firewire there is an easy solution. of course you will loose some speed here if you were using a macbook pro with a firewire 800 port.

usb 2 (480Mbps) is just a bit faster than firewire 400 and not that it would come up to often but it can also hold that speed with more connected devices than firewire can. again not that i see this as a selling point but USB 2 can handle 127 devices while firewire is 63.

i am in NO way agreeing with the decision to remove firewire since it could have easily fit and i would like to have it as well but it was not a deal killer for me and i cant imagine that it would me for someone involved in things like live music either since they could easily have a hub and be assured that it can handle the audio and video with no problems.

anyway thats my thoughts

Do some research before you troll.

 

[eXan]

i have not read this entire 100 page thread so this may have already been discussed but it seems to me that if you are using something that needs firewire then you are most likely not using something small and portable like a mp3 player or compact digital camera. this being the case then why would you care that you would need something like this to connect your firewire device to? of course that is just one example of the many types and sizes of firewire/usb hubs available.

i have the aluminum macbook now but had a black one before and my black macbook had firewire but it was 400.

so if you have to use firewire there is an easy solution. of course you will loose some speed here if you were using a macbook pro with a firewire 800 port.

usb 2 (480Mbps) is just a bit faster than firewire 400 and not that it would come up to often but it can also hold that speed with more connected devices than firewire can. again not that i see this as a selling point but USB 2 can handle 127 devices while firewire is 63.

i am in NO way agreeing with the decision to remove firewire since it could have easily fit and i would like to have it as well but it was not a deal killer for me and i cant imagine that it would be for someone involved in things like live music either since they could easily have a hub and be assured that it can handle the audio and video with no problems.

anyway thats my thoughts

OMG, and here we go AGAIN....................

Dude, at least read last couple of pages

 

[fletch33]

i should know better than to jump into a 100 page thread without reading more than a few pages.

sorry this seems to be a touchy subject.

 

[localoid]

Higher quality, compared to lower quality (the current chipset), or higher quality compared to faulty?

One of the big problems with trying to completely figure out the exact nature of the problem is Apple's apparent reluctance to provide any sort of information on the problem from their end. Finding out what chipset is actually used in a given laptop isn't as something you can do from the system profiler -- you have to startup with a control + s or a control + v and watch the text prompt to determine what chipset you have, etc.

Here's something from the RME forums on the chipset, posted in 2007, when the problem first surfaced:

Hardware Alert: FireWire solutions with Agere FW chip
Hello,

as already stated in the thread 'Workaround for Fireface iMac Problem'

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=974

"there is a new FW 800 chip on the market from Agere, which seems to be incompatible (not only) to RMEs FireWire audio, and requires workarounds for successful operation.

The reason Apple used this chip instead of the former TI solution is easy to find: half the price and a lot smaller. So it is not astonishing that this chip now also begins to show up on Windows computers. We got our hands on a PCIe FireWire 800 card from Unibrain using this chip, and found the exact (!) same problems under Windows as under Mac OS X using this card.

Our examination of the problem showed that the Agere chip causes the Firefaces to issue a FireWire bus reset shortly after start of data transmission (isochronous mode). We tried a Motu 828 for comparison and found this to be affected as well (everything seemed to work, but playback did not start).

Therefore we have to declare this chip and all related products as incompatible, and expect a fix (if any) from Agere's side, by either firmware or driver updates."

[source]

The problem with the Lucent/Agere chipset started in late-2007, when Apple apparently made the switch in some of its laptops, and perhaps even some iMacs. Then the issue popped up again with the late-2008 line. Apple needs to clear the air on the issue, but so far that hasn't happened. Apparently Apple feels it can get away with ignoring any problems that don't affect the majority of users. Or maybe Apple just doesn't listen well enough these days to realize there is a problem.

Below, from my earlier post on page #100 (I've provided this info several times in this thread) which outline the problem, in brief:

Apple reintroduced the problematic Lucent/Agere Firewire chipset in the new and shiny late-2008 MacBook Pro, the chipset that proved to incompatible with most of the Firewire audio interfaces on the market back in October of 2007, when Apple began using the Lucent/Agere chipset in the late-2007 MacBooks and MacBook Pros. And to make matters worse, Apple refused to publicly acknowledge what chipsets are used in their MacBook lines. Then, apparently sometime in early-2008 Apple went back to using the TI chipset and all seemed well, until in late-2008, when Apple dropped the Firewire altogether on the new MacBook and left off the FW400 on the new MacBook Pro and went back to using the Lucent/Agere chipset in the new MacBook Pro!

 

[Tosser]

i should know better than to jump into a 100 page thread without reading more than a few pages.

sorry this seems to be a touchy subject.

The subject itself is not especially "touchy". No, it's the fact that people response with apologetic nonsense on a subject they have no clue about. Take the USB/FW hub you spoke about: Without FW it's simply a USB hub.
Take the claim that USB is faster: It's not. Only for small files. So the claim that it can hold that speed for longer than FW is simply an argument based on ignorance.
Secondly, USB CAN'T be used a substitute for many things.

Well, I won't go into everything in your post (which was deleted but quoted by someone else), but suffice to say that most of what you say in that post is nonsense and is ignorant (in the true sense of the word).

So, yes, I agree: This thread would never have become this long unless people continued to jump aboard while knowing little about the subject.

 

[robanga]

The subject itself is not especially "touchy". No, it's the fact that people response with apologetic nonsense on a subject they have no clue about. Take the USB/FW hub you spoke about: Without FW it's simply a USB hub.
Take the claim that USB is faster: It's not. Only for small files. So the claim that it can hold that speed for longer than FW is simply an argument based on ignorance.
Secondly, USB CAN'T be used a substitute for many things.

Well, I won't go into everything in your post (which was deleted but quoted by someone else), but suffice to say that most of what you say in that post is nonsense and is ignorant (in the true sense of the word).

So, yes, I agree: This thread would never have become this long unless people continued to jump aboard while knowing little about the subject.

Has he been duly chastised at this point, or would you like to give it another round?

 

[Tosser]

Has he been duly chastised at this point, or would you like to give it another round?

The intention was to correct something ill fathomed: Namely that the topic was not "touchy" and at the same time give him some information and not merely "chastise" him, as you seem to think.