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That _could_ have been true, had they not had FW800 on their latest revision of the Mac Mini (notice the utter lack of Pro in that name). You simply cannot put together an argument based on premises that ignores contradictory facts.

I never said that the notion was consistent. It is contradictory, because it's marketing-driven and not reflective of any actual categories of users.

But that FW is ONLY for pros has NEVER been an Apple-argument. It has only been argued that Apple wanted to differentiate between "pro" and "non-pro" users by having an FW-port or not by people on discussion boards. And that the nixing of FW800 was that only "Pro" products would have FW. The occurrence of the revised Mac Mini with FW800 put that notion to bed.

Now we're just going in circles. Call it what you will, Apple tried to shift a set of users - those who require FW - onto a higher-margin product. The fact that they left it on the mini, which doesn't compete with any other Apple product, only shows that the entire basis of these decisions is marketing and profit.
 
Does anyone know if FireWire 3200 is backward compatible without using an adapter for 400 and 800?

EDIT: 3000! Wahoo!

The 1.6 Gbit/s and 3.2 Gbit/s devices use the same 9-circuit beta connectors as the existing FireWire 800 and will be fully compatible with existing S400 and S800 devices.

According to the wiki it's backwards compatible with 800 using the same connection, but will need an adapter for 400
 
According to the wiki it's backwards compatible with 800 using the same connection, but will need an adapter for 400

Wow, your fast.

Thats great news!

Hopefully 400 will finally die and companies will start using more up to date standards (400 is 14 years old! ancient!).
 
Wow, your fast.

Thats great news!

Hopefully 400 will finally die and companies will start using more up to date standards (400 is 14 years old! ancient!).

Yes, no need for FW400 anymore really, replace all FW400 with at least FW800 and then we can work on phasing out all FW400 ports, and once USB 3.0 it will be the final nail in the coffin for at least FW400 if not FW800 as well

EDIT: as I stated before I think this was Apple's mindset on removing FW400 from the MB, they could either bump it to FW800 or remove FW altogether, unfortunately they removed it altogether which I think they are reconsidering since the Mac Mini has FW800.
 
Yes, no need for FW400 anymore really, replace all FW400 with at least FW800 and then we can work on phasing out all FW400 ports, and once USB 3.0 it will be the final nail in the coffin for at least FW400 if not FW800 as well

+1

I do forsee 800 becoming the 400 of today however. Manufactureres seem to have no problem with offering it vastly over 800 (which from another viewpoint, it works great, so why bother)

Either way its an exciting time in tech!:)
 
I guess it reads that way to anyone looking for some sort of squabble who clearly holds grudges to people online. Im sorry you read it that way.
I don't hold grudges against people, no matter if they're online or not (what a weird differentiation you put on the table, btw). However, I do run out of patience.

As for this, im done with it, and will continue with the actual thread.
Good for you.

Good day, and hopefully the next time we cross paths it wont be another pointless pissing match.
It was never a pissing match to me. I became annoyed by talking to someone accusing me of making up quotes and simultaneously run from what they said even when it was there in plain sight.


Burb.



I never said that the notion was consistent. It is contradictory, because it's marketing-driven and not reflective of any actual categories of users.

That's my point. I have explained it numerous times: It is not marketing-driven as that notion was/is based on speculation on Macrumors and other Mac-sites, not from Apple's marketing department. There's a huge difference.


Now we're just going in circles. Call it what you will, Apple tried to shift a set of users - those who require FW - onto a higher-margin product. The fact that they left it on the mini, which doesn't compete with any other Apple product, only shows that the entire basis of these decisions is marketing and profit.

You say that we go in circles, and then you repeat what you said earlier? :p

:)
 
+1

I do forsee 800 becoming the 400 of today however. Manufactureres seem to have no problem with offering it vastly over 800 (which from another viewpoint, it works great, so why bother)

Either way its an exciting time in tech!:)

This kind of confused me when you say 'it' do you mean FW400? if so yeah with USB 2.0 having a max of 480 Mbps and FW400 a max of 400 Mbps but ending up being slightly faster than USB due to sustained transfer rates then it's not a bad thing to have, but when USB 3.0 is released it will be substantially slower than USB, and use a different connection than the majority of FW (800, 1600, 3200), so it will die out after that for sure.
 
This kind of confused me when you say 'it' do you mean FW400? if so yeah with USB 2.0 having a max of 480 Mbps and FW400 a max of 400 Mbps but ending up being slightly faster than USB due to sustained transfer rates then it's not a bad thing to have, but when USB 3.0 is released it will be substantially slower than USB, and use a different connection than the majority of FW (800, 1600, 3200), so it will die out after that for sure.

Sorry about that, yes by "it" i meant 400.

Dont forget that 3.0 will face the same adoption problems that 800 has, but it will get picked up much faster because most people know what usb is.
 
Sorry about that, yes by "it" i meant 400.

Dont forget that 3.0 will face the same adoption problems that 800 has, but it will get picked up much faster because most people know what usb is.

No it doesn't. 3.0 is backward compatible (one bump down) and it's cheaper to manufacture than FireWire. 3.0 will be easily adopted as you won't have to buy adapters or all new hardware to accommodate it.
 
That's my point. I have explained it numerous times: It is not marketing-driven as that notion was/is based on speculation on Macrumors and other Mac-sites, not from Apple's marketing department. There's a huge difference.

You expect Apple's marketing department to just come out and say how they plan to manipulate the customer base? Companies don't work that way, in my experience.

You say that we go in circles, and then you repeat what you said earlier? :p

:)

Uh, yeah, that's what going in circles is all about. ;)
 
You expect Apple's marketing department to just come out and say how they plan to manipulate the customer base? Companies don't work that way, in my experience.
No, most companies don't. Hence it is naught but pure speculation from non-Apple people that the nixing of firewire was due to them differentiating between pro and non-pro products. That speculation was put to shame the moment they introduced a Mac Mini with Firewire 800.



Uh, yeah, that's what going in circles is all about. ;)

LOL, true. I just figured that when someone says "we're going in circles", it's because they want to break out from said circle or perhaps try something different. :p

Response of the week! :D

Yes, it was. But what's worrying is that the bloke (who Nile responded to) will most likely not get what pants have to do with computers, blissfully and utterly unaware how one tests the validity of an argument :p
 
No, most companies don't. Hence it is naught but pure speculation from non-Apple people that the nixing of firewire was due to them differentiating between pro and non-pro products.

Well of course they're not going to publicly announce "we removed Firewire from the Macbook because by doing that we hope that customers who require it will be forced to buy the Macbook Pro, resulting in more profit for us." But some things are obvious from common sense. As Jerry Seinfeld once said, "I live and breathe, my friend, I live and breathe."

That speculation was put to shame the moment they introduced a Mac Mini with Firewire 800.

That doesn't change anything about the MB/MBP. Those are in a different market, competing with each other. Keeping FW on the mini only reinforces the fact that removing it from the MB was a decision on how the MB and MBP would be marketed, not a technical decision, and nothing to do with FW being a "pro" feature.

LOL, true. I just figured that when someone says "we're going in circles", it's because they want to break out from said circle or perhaps try something different. :p

I'd be happy to break out from this circle. All it would take would be for you to admit the logic of my position. :rolleyes: No? Oh well, it was worth a try. ;)
 
Well of course they're not going to publicly announce "we removed Firewire from the Macbook because by doing that we hope that customers who require it will be forced to buy the Macbook Pro, resulting in more profit for us." But some things are obvious from common sense. As Jerry Seinfeld once said, "I live and breathe, my friend, I live and breathe."

Well, since the introduction of the FW800-equipped Mac Mini, there is as much logic in that conclusion as there is in saying "mother cannot fly, a stone cannot fly, ergo: mother is a stone".
You cannot simply ignore how a consumer product equipped with FW800 utterly invalidate your premise. Yes, your logic is fine, until you notice that there is Mac Mini with FW800.

Your logic, if applied elsewhere is the same as one going: "If it's from Apple, has a hard disc and a screen, it's either a MacBook or a MacBook Pro, but in any case a laptop".
The retort, of course, would be:
"What about the iMacs? THey have both, yet they're not laptops"

Then you come back and go:
"It doesn't matter, both the MacBook and the MacBook Pro fits the description, and therefore I don't have to consider anything else".

Can you see the parallel yet?



That doesn't change anything about the MB/MBP. Those are in a different market, competing with each other. Keeping FW on the mini only reinforces the fact that removing it from the MB was a decision on how the MB and MBP would be marketed, not a technical decision, and nothing to do with FW being a "pro" feature.
Even if it is a marketing decision, that by no means it's based on what your marketing guess is – namely that it is to differentiate "Pro" products from non-pro products.




I'd be happy to break out from this circle. All it would take would be for you to admit the logic of my position. :rolleyes: No? Oh well, it was worth a try. ;)

The problem is, I see your logic, but your logic is utterly flawed as the entire premise of your conclusion is invalid as I have shown time and time again.
 
Why why why why WHY doesn't this thread just DIE already? It has already been decided: MMS and copy and paste on the iPhone is a sign of what's next: FireWire on the next revision of MacBooks.* So just be patient everyone...and for God's sake quit whining!!! :D

*Next revision will also feature dedicated graphics cards.
 
Why why why why WHY doesn't this thread just DIE already? It has already been decided: MMS and copy and paste on the iPhone is a sign of what's next: FireWire on the next revision of MacBooks.* So just be patient everyone...and for God's sake quit whining!!! :D

*Next revision will also feature dedicated graphics cards.

Thanks for the news, Steve!
 
So just be patient everyone...and for God's sake quit whining!!! :D

No no no, please keep whining people - especially via Apple's feedback page...

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Maybe Apple even has received the message to the point where they'll "fix" this in the next MB update, but I think they need to know that this was not merely a premature omission, but a short-sighted and cynical move which diminishes the faith of Apple's customer base.

As I mentioned earlier, I've put that faith in firewire and invested a ton in firewire peripherals - cameras, audio interfaces, and a bunch of hard drives. I'm not suddenly a pro, but simply a consumer with connectivity issues. While this isn't exactly a deal-breaker between me and Apple's product line, if we're going to continue to put our faith into Apple technologies which are not standard in the greater PC world and they continue to reward us by making technologies prematurely obsolete, well I guess I'll burn that bridge when I come to it.
 
Why why why why WHY doesn't this thread just DIE already? It has already been decided: MMS and copy and paste on the iPhone is a sign of what's next: FireWire on the next revision of MacBooks.* So just be patient everyone...and for God's sake quit whining!!! :D

I'm sorry, but why, why, WHY do people who have no interest in nor need for firewire keep coming in here and do what you just did?

And why, why, WHY, do you think you can compare firewire and a need for such (working=TI) port to a software feature on the lowest-common-denomintor consumer toy product that is the iPhone?

Finally: Why, why WHY, do you think it's best to just keep one's mouth shut and just wait patiently to see where the whims of a huge corporation will tak you to next? I gather you don't actually rely on a computer as part of your production chain.

Anyway, as I have stated before, I have already ordered meself a nice – very nice - Thinkpad. It's 12", has the same resolution as my 15" MBP, and funnily enough, the Expresscard slot works with the OS that comes with it. :D
 
Well Tosser, I realize this is pure speculation, just throwing an idea out there, maybe they did use the lack of FW to differentiate the MB from the MBP, and weren't going to have any FW on the Mac Mini, but because of the amount of feedback they got they decided to add FW (in the form of FW800) back to the Mac Mini before release. I mean the MacBooks were released Oct 14 2008, the Mac Mini was released March 3rd 2009, plenty of time between the two to add FW back to the Mac Mini.

Just because FW is on the Mac Mini now doesn't mean that was Apple's original plan. Which, if this were the case (I know, pure speculation) Eric S. would be correct.
 
I know that this pisses the hell out of a lot of people...but as a college student all i use my MacBook for is papers and surfing. But, i could see if i owned a device that used firewire and a MacBook that didn't there would be problems.
 
I know that this pisses the hell out of a lot of people...but as a college student all i use my MacBook for is papers and surfing. But, i could see if i owned a device that used firewire and a MacBook that didn't there would be problems.

But what's your point? The thing is, if Apple had included FW, NOTHING would be taken away from your minimal usage of features. However, when they remove it, they not only make problems for a whole lot of us, they influence our ability to make money. It took me over a year to migrate my workflows and have them down so when I made the final switch, I wouldn't take a dive in income and reputation (i.e. by not making deadlines).

P.S. Come to think of it, even with your minimal usage, you'll cry when you won't be able to rescue your documents because of a lack of target disk mode. :cool:
 
You cannot simply ignore how a consumer product equipped with FW800 utterly invalidate your premise. Yes, your logic is fine, until you notice that there is Mac Mini with FW800.

As I keep stating, they are two completely different cases. The presence of FW on the mini has no relevance to the MB/MBP marketing at all. The mini is marketed differently than the MB/MBP and has no competition, where the MB/MBP compete against each other.

At this point I have nothing else to say about this.
 
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