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Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks
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LOL, no I don't
Sigh, not again!
You guys still don't get it, do you?
You cannot claim that inclusion of FW means it's a Pro product, while at the same time, and when facts prove you wrong, then move the goal post, and make up some other explanation to make up for the flawed logic. That kind of pseudo logic is the exact same logic used by religious nuts and conspirationists (no comparison otherwise, btw).
"Milk comes from cows"
"But what about goat milk or Mother's Milk?"
"Oh, I'm right, because milk comes from cows, IF the milk is taken from cows. Ergo: Milk comes from cows".
Indeed.
Aww darn. I thought an understanding was being met.
I hope this whole "changing the goal post" thing is not directed at me. If it is directed at Chris S, he has already said that "FW=Pro" is inconsistent if you consider the Mac Mini.
"Milk comes from cows"
"But what about goat milk or Mother's Milk?"
"Oh right. What I meant was cow's milk comes from cows."
Did I cheat and move the goal post? or simply explain my argument? Your Milk Dialogue has no bearing since Chris has taken goat and Mother's milk into account.
Actually I embrace logic and have been found to be in the top 1% of the population in terms of "intelligence" (largely based on logical reasoning). This means I am smart enough to know that none of us are likely to ever know who was right and who was wrong in this argument...
The beginning of wisdom is being able to say, "I don't know."
I am more than happy to admit that I don't know why Apple pulled FW from the MB but my opinion, based on logical reasoning, is that it is to differentiate MB customers from MBP customers. That's it, take it or leave it!
Have a good night all,
Craig.
How can you miss that claiming that someone else is claiming something is STILL a claim?
"Apple has decided they're differentiating their pro products from non-pro products by eliminating" is just as much a claim as the following statement:
"They're differentiating they non-pro computers from their pro computers by eliminating FW".
I'm sorry, but coming from you, that is utter nonsense.
Let me repeat:
Just because he claims it's someone else's decision, doesn't make the argument itself someone else's. Now, is that clear enough to be absorbed?
No. I just don't think that an argument becomes any more valid by more people repeating them and agreeing with them.
It was a general comment. If I recall correctly, it was aimed mostly at the ones who moves the goal post as in example below:
Ha ha, no. Don't you see that "Milk comes from cows" is an invalid argument in itself, because the facts are contradictory. Yes, milk MAY come from cows, but since it can come from other things as well, as the facts show, the conclusion, the generalisation, is false.
Then, when countered with these facts, the goal post is moved and people pretend they have taken the facts into account, even though the entire argument is flawed.
Anyway, I think you guys should read this it explains it much more thoroughly than I feel like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost
Actually I embrace logic and have been found to be in the top 1% of the population in terms of "intelligence" (largely based on logical reasoning). This means I am smart enough to know that none of us are likely to ever know who was right and who was wrong in this argument...
The beginning of wisdom is being able to say, "I don't know."
I am more than happy to admit that I don't know why Apple pulled FW from the MB but my opinion, based on logical reasoning, is that it is to differentiate MB customers from MBP customers. That's it, take it or leave it!
Have a good night all,
Craig.
Yeah I agree. Who knows what Apple really thinks of FW800 behind closed doors. However, believing that Apple is saying that finding FW800 in a laptop is a premium or "pro" situation is a sound interpretation.
An interpretation, not an objective truth. Isn't that what this site is all about? Is this place called macrumors or macfacts?
LOL, so claiming to be a one-percenter makes you realise that we can't get to the bottom of the validity of a simple argument? Ha ha, that is rich!
Sure it is. Any more clichés?The beginning of wisdom is being able to say, "I don't know."
Fair enough.
Nightynight.
I agree with you to an extent here.
The problem is that "Milk comes from cows" is true. If I say "American money is green", is it false because I'm not addressing trees, limes, traffic lights, or the fungus between my toes? The lack of specificity does not automatically make it false. The statements, "All milk comes from cows" or "Milk comes from cows only" would be the false ones.
I agree that "FW=Pro" cannot be taken as true at face value. Elaboration is required here, which is what you got. I mean, it seems to me that you won the initial "Apple says FW=Pro" argument because you brought up the Mac mini, or someone did. However I don't think that you can dismiss notion that portable computers are different animals than desktop computers and what's considered pro in one may not be pro in the other.
You really shouldn't quote something that was never said. And sorry, I never said that, nor did I ever imply it, because I don't believe that.
Probably, but I'm past that now.
2nd hand blackbook is cheaper, looks better and is, to me, still a compromise.
Does anyone know if the mini uses the same internals, esp. the board designs as the MacBooks? Obviously it´s differently shaped, I´m thinking about the inclusion of the FW controller, or lack thereof.
Did you or did you not say that it was a marketing decision (i.e. Apple's decision) to let firewire be the thing that distinguished Pro from non-pro products?
Let me answer that for you: Yes, that was you. Since we have a quote-function here, I didn't quote you for something you didn't say, I paraphrased what you said. Do you really want me to go through all your posts where you have said the same thing over and over again and show you once again that you have indeed said that it was a marketing decision?
And Pentent:
Yes, it's true, I got the "elaboration" (let's call it that, so you know what I refer to), but that is the whole problem with the argument: That "elaboration" (i.e. when they went something along the lines of adding "in the laptop line" to exclude taking the Mac Mini into account) did not exist until the Mac Mini with FW800 hit the shelves. Therefore, at best, it is an after rationalisation - a moving of goalpost in order to have the original claim continue to look strong on the surface.
Almost the same is the case when Eric (I think it was him) claims to ever has been claiming to have stated that FW was to distinguish pro's from the non-pros: He simply uses an imaginary, arbitrary "marketing decision" to be the rhetorical delivery boy of his opinion when he lays said opinion on the table. But that certainly doesn't mean it's not his opinion that lays before us.
Anyway, I'm out for now.
No. I said that Firewire was one of the things that differentiated the Macbook from the Macbook Pro (not "non-pro products"). That does not mean that "Apple has decided that FW=Pro." It means that Apple decided to market the Macbook and Macbook Pro in that way.
When you use quotes, that is not paraphrasing. You couldn't have used the quote function, since I never used those words. And your paraphrasing distorted the meaning.
You guys said that all the rest which differentiated the MB Pro from the MB was nothing compared to FW. Further, and in other threads, you guys have argued that if you needed firewire [can you guess what the rest of that sentence is?].
Eh, do you even know how I make these short quotes?
You know, I actually type "quote" in brackets like these: [].
So, had I been attempting to make it seem like you said those things verbatim, I would have put them in a real quote, like this:
As you can see above, your attempt at accusing me for making up quotes is utterly ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous and pointless as your reasoning that one cannot put anything in a real quote-form because the system doesn't support it. Please take your nearest book that deals with usage of the language, and you will notice that these """ (yes, there are three - one on each side of what I want to address) are used for much more than direct quotes. Hell, there are numerous others way of showing quotes and direct speech *one of them is the "quote-brackets" [see what I did there?] in this forum.
Not in the least. What distorts the meaning is you moving the goalpost whenever facts is presented to you. First it is to differentiate between a product meant for consumer and one for "pros" (Notice, that that is not a quote either it's a way of showing sarcasm because it is an arbitrary distinction when it comes to Apple), then when the Mac Mini comes out, it is only on the laptops (i.e. "let's ignore some products to make our argument seem sound on the surface" no, that wasn't a quote either. It was a sarcastic paraphrasing), and then when countered with a "return to base", all of a sudden it was always about the MB vs. MBP. Funny that, since you and many others argued that it was to differentiate the pro from the consumer even before the Mac Mini. And with that you have completed a full circle in your logic.
So, yes, in conclusion: Your argumentation is flawed. Making it circular doesn't make it any better.
Wow. I really don't want to get involved in such a pointless shouting match.
I simply want to state my opinion on FW in Macbooks and this looks like the place.
My original Macbook is getting a little long in the tooth closing in on 3yrs old. I'd like to get a new machine. BUT none of Apple's current offerings really hit the mark.
Options I'm debating:
- Aluminum Macbook: I really like most of the new machine EXCEPT for the lack of FW. In my tests with my current machine, FW400 performs twice as fast as USB. I can't really see spending a ton of money on a new faster machine to have things run at half speed.
- Macbook Pro: Machine seems fine, except that I really like the 13" size of the Macbook. Lugging a 15" behemoth around simply seems too big and cumbersome for me and doesn't feel like a step up.
- Macbook Air: This is more my liking size and weight wise, but I lose firewire again and go with a potentially slower machine than what I already have.
Which leads me to my most likely outcome... no upgrade, stay with my same old white Macbook which is still working fine.
And back to this thread, I think it was a mistake for Apple to drop Firewire from the Macbook. If they had dropped it from the Mini it would have been more indicative of a general thread away from Firewire. But given that every other machine now has FW800 it seems odd that the Macbook is left out. On the Macbook Air it made sense, but not on the Macbook.
Apple is usually an early adopter of improved technology. If USB3 was out, that would be a different story, but staying with inferior USB 2.0 and dropping Firewire all together is too limiting for the Macbook.
I simply want to state my opinion on FW in Macbooks and this looks like the place.
My original Macbook is getting a little long in the tooth closing in on 3yrs old. I'd like to get a new machine. BUT none of Apple's current offerings really hit the mark.
Options I'm debating:
- Aluminum Macbook: I really like most of the new machine EXCEPT for the lack of FW. In my tests with my current machine, FW400 performs twice as fast as USB. I can't really see spending a ton of money on a new faster machine to have things run at half speed.
- Macbook Pro: Machine seems fine, except that I really like the 13" size of the Macbook. Lugging a 15" behemoth around simply seems too big and cumbersome for me and doesn't feel like a step up.
- Macbook Air: This is more my liking size and weight wise, but I lose firewire again and go with a potentially slower machine than what I already have.
Which leads me to my most likely outcome... no upgrade, stay with my same old white Macbook which is still working fine.
And back to this thread, I think it was a mistake for Apple to drop Firewire from the Macbook. If they had dropped it from the Mini it would have been more indicative of a general thread away from Firewire. But given that every other machine now has FW800 it seems odd that the Macbook is left out. On the Macbook Air it made sense, but not on the Macbook.
Apple is usually an early adopter of improved technology. If USB3 was out, that would be a different story, but staying with inferior USB 2.0 and dropping Firewire all together is too limiting for the Macbook.
I just wanted to make a couple quick points because this really is just a mean-spirited shouting match of yes-you-did-no-I-didn't between you and Eric.
First, it is necessary to identify which Apple computers are pro and which aren't. For the sake of argument, I think we can safely say that Apple thinks two of their computers are pro and they are the ones with the word "pro" in the name: The Mac Pro and the Macbook Pro (and their variations).
Ok, so you say that the "elaboration" only appeared when the Mac Mini with FW800 was released. This makes his argument an "after-rationalization"; some sort of bastard child from the land of logic. I ask, why can't it just be a new argument? Why can't the old thought just die because new evidence has entered the fray, and from the ashes is a new understanding? The goal post isn't moved, you're just playing on a new field.
Now, could it be that he always intended "FW=Pro" to mean laptops only? Could it be that most readers of that thread had that understanding? You say no because the elaboration was brought up when the FW800 Mac Mini was released. What about the iMac? The iMac is a non-pro computer that had FW during the time of the unibody's release.
I get the feeling that the animosity being witnessed here goes back to earlier threads and discussions. Oh and another thing, yeah you can put anything in the quote box, so I suggest to refer us to the thread page where the quote exists if it's really that important.
In related news, Dell just released the "thinnest laptop." Looks like Apple has some relevant competition and needs to pick up the slack.
http://hothardware.com/News/Dell-Unleashes-the-Adamo/
can i run osx on this thing?
Maybe, but with a 1.2 Ghz processor, im not sure why anyone would even want that computer.
If you mean this protracted discussion between myself and Tosser, no, it is not connected to anything else. And I don't feel any animosity; I'm just trying to state what I believe to be the case, but I keep being told that I'm saying something other than what I'm trying to say. But in any case I've said it enough times and in enough ways that I'm not going to continue beating my head against the wall.
Did you miss the memo?
1) I paraphrased something that was said and put it in "quotation marks" –*not in a "quote box"
2) I was accused of making up quotes because of the above.
3) I explained that it wasn't a direct quote, but a paraphrasing.
4) I was accused once again of making up quotes, because "it wasn't possible to quote something that wasn't said" (yes, that's not verbatim either).
5) I explained the technical details as to SHOW how it TECHNICALLY could be done in order to PROVE that it was in no way my intent to pretend anyone said what I paraphrased verbatim.
And now you seem to demand that I should refer to thread pages to make it clear what is a direct quote and what is not? First of all, get with the programme, and learn how quotation marks can be used for other things than direct speech (especially on a forum with a quote function). Secondly, I don't cave into idiocy, simply because some people are willing to go to great lengths to throw red herrings (look it up). Third, and this - once again - shows the ignorance portrayed: To me, this thread is at present on page 77 –*how many pages are your thread?
But I guess the next reply will be something along the lines of "Well, then refer to the post number". I seriously can't be arsed to keep track of each and every post you guys make to make up for your own lack of coherence in your argumentation.
In any case, I think it would be futile to go back and quote what you guys have said, as you (guys) have already shown yourself to be more than willing to move the goal post as you go along. If you're still in doubt about what was said, go back a few pages and reread what was written.
Nor can I be asked to make the effort to count the number of inane posts going back and forth; but if this was a road trip, I'd be yelling at you kids in the back to shut it, or I'm turning this car around.
Tosser, the quote box thing was a general comment (to use your phrase). You point out that quotes in a box or quotes with quotation marks can be fabricated. I suggested refering to the page (or, as you corrected, post #) where the disputed quote exists would be more effective, but you say that it's too much work. That doesn't help prove your point and does not speak well of your belief in using all available evidence.
Yeah, I've noticed we're not even talking about macs anymore. I mean, the only thing tosser addressed from my post was the thing about quoting protocol, for cryin' out loud.
Perhaps it is time to move on?
Yeah, I've noticed we're not even talking about macs anymore. I mean, the only thing tosser addressed from my post was the thing about quoting protocol, for cryin' out loud.
Perhaps it is time to move on?
I don't know.
It's the principle of the thing. We're beginning to get what we have been asking for. The next MacBooks WILL have FireWire 800 on them, but the TI chipset is asking too much! It'll be Lucent or Agere, sorry.
I didn't say that, did I? I have a FireWire 800 external hard drive and a FireWire camcorder. IMHO although not many MacBook users will ever use the port, they should have left it in at least for Target Disk Mode if nothing else. It was a huge mistake to drop it, but for the love of Christ people!!! The rest of the world has already ordered the 17" MacBook Pro which has both 1394 AND a screen that's actually big enough for you to work on without going blind! And enough with this BS about "EEEHHH!! MACK BOOK PROOOOOOO TOO BIIIIIIGGG TA CARRY WIT ME WHENEVAH I GO SHOOOOT ON LOKAATIOONN!" I've been to many such semi-pro video shoots and ALL THEY USE ARE 17" MACBOOK PROS!!! MAYBE you get a white MacBook in there OCCASIONALLY, but the MacBook Pro is by far the most common. And guess what?! The "studio guys" (for lack of a better term) carry the OH SO HEAVY AND BULKY MacBook Pro in their backpacks ALONG WITH other s**t.
Anyway, as I have stated before, I have already ordered meself a nice – very nice - Thinkpad. It's 12", has the same resolution as my 15" MBP, and funnily enough, the Expresscard slot works with the OS that comes with it.
I hope you enjoy it. Sincerely I do.
Yeah, seriously...Vista on a 1.2 GHz? Have fun with that!
No really, I think everybody, Apple included, should quit trying the "Let's See How Thin We Can Make It" until the Xeons run cool enough to fit in there.