Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[NT1440]

Ha ha!
Kettle? Pot? Much?




I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, the inclusion on Mini makes me think it might happen, but then again, this is on a laptop, they seem to be nixing ports left and right.

Underlined: Thats exactly what everyone is talking about.


To the actual part of your post. I havent been in on the mac loop as long as you (i think) but didnt they kind of do the same thing with the original macbook pro? I remember reading somewhere that apple didnt have a certain point on the original macbook pro, then after getting a massive amount of feedback, added it back on the next revision.

That could deffinatly happen here right?

 

[Tosser]

Underlined: Thats exactly what everyone is talking about.


To the actual part of your post. I havent been in on the mac loop as long as you (i think) but didnt they kind of do the same thing with the original macbook pro? I remember reading somewhere that apple didnt have a certain point on the original macbook pro, then after getting a massive amount of feedback, added it back on the next revision.

That could deffinatly happen here right?

Yup. They did. The first MBP had the FW800 nixed, then it was reintroduced (FW400+800) and then the Agere chipset was introduced. Then the TI-chipset was reintroduced and stayed there for a while, and then they nixed FW400 (i.e. one of two FW-ports) and reintroduced teh Agere chipset, while nixing firewire entirely on the MacBook - well, except for the 2007-tech Whitebook.
So, yes, it might happen. But by going by the rest of the laptop offerings, it will most likely have the Agere chipset, and who knows for how long it will stay there untill Apple decides "Noone uses fw" once again?

 

[LagunaSol]

How do I ban a blowhard from my thread views? Way too much noise in here - from a small contigent of one.

 

[NT1440]

Yup. They did. The first MBP had the FW800 nixed, then it was reintroduced (FW400+800) and then the Agere chipset was introduced. Then the TI-chipset was reintroduced and stayed there for a while, and then they nixed FW400 (i.e. one of two FW-ports) and reintroduced teh Agere chipset, while nixing firewire entirely on the MacBook - well, except for the 2007-tech Whitebook.
So, yes, it might happen. But by going by the rest of the laptop offerings, it will most likely have the Agere chipset, and who knows for how long it will stay there untill Apple decides "Noone uses fw" once again?

So then, im not saying this is deffinatly what apple is doing, but perhaps they are doing real world tests to see how much of an actual demand there is? Once they figure the demand is low enough, maybe they plan to nix FW for good?

Again, this is more of a me wondering out loud kind of thing.

 

[AidenShaw]

How do I ban a blowhard from my thread views? Way too much noise in here - from a small contigent of one.

https://forums.macrumors.com/profile.php?do=editlist

Go to "User CP" in the menu bar, and add the name to the "Ignore List".

 

[Tosser]

So then, im not saying this is deffinatly what apple is doing, but perhaps they are doing real world tests to see how much of an actual demand there is? Once they figure the demand is low enough, maybe they plan to nix FW for good?

Could be. But with the constant change, inclusion and exclusion, demand amongst Macusers will dwindle. How many Mac users who doesn't depend on non-computer equipment for work would buy a FW camera, FW audio recorder, FW audio interface, or external harddisc with FW, if they thought that next revision might not a) not work with the next revision, or b) might not even be able to connect?

Again, this is more of a me wondering out loud kind of thing.

Well, that's all we have. FW-choices seem to change seasonally

 

[NT1440]

Could be. But with the constant change, inclusion and exclusion, demand amongst Macusers will dwindle. How many Mac users who doesn't depend on non-computer equipment for work would buy a FW camera, FW audio recorder, FW audio interface, or external harddisc with FW, if they thought that next revision might not a) not work with the next revision, or b) might not even be able to connect?



Well, that's all we have. FW-choices seem to change seasonally

Good point, MAYBE if that is what they are doing (the testing i mean, and we have no way to tell) its all part of the plan? who knows lol

 

[Eric S.]

Anyway, ontopic, i have a feeling well see FW in the macbook at the revision along with a small spec bump, and perhaps a small price drop as well.

What revision do you mean? The next major revision, maybe (but even then I doubt it). But not at a speed bump revision. You can't just a slap a port on a board and ship it. It requires design, layout, burn-in testing, and gearing up a production line. That takes several months at minimum.

If FW is going to come back on the MB, I would look to the Nehalem-based model that should come out next year. But that assumes Apple will admit it made a mistake, something that rarely happens (although you did mention one past instance of it). And it would erase the product differentiation point between the MB and the MBP.

 

[Snide]

Anyway, ontopic, i have a feeling well see FW in the macbook at the revision along with a small spec bump, and perhaps a small price drop as well.

I already mentioned up-thread that FW is indeed returning to the MacBook.

It's a done deal...

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

Bottom line is Apple lost sales with this decision. Probably not the best business move. Steve Jobs allegedly stating that DV cams are all going USB doesn't magically make my Firewire Digi 002 work with a USB port, nor my 2 external Firewire hard drives, nor my external Firewire DVD burner.

Actually, the economy has had more of an impact than FireWire. Actually, dare I say it, FireWire doesn't even affect a bulk of the sales. I can count on one hand the amount of people that were concerned about the lack of FireWire. And on the same hand the amount of people that know what FireWire is. The people here on this forum, believe it or not represents a minority of the people that buy the MacBook.

 

[Eric S.]

I already mentioned up-thread that FW is indeed returning to the MacBook.

It's a done deal...

And you got this information from "a friend of a friend of a friend"?

Actually, the economy has had more of an impact than FireWire. Actually, dare I say it, FireWire doesn't even affect a bulk of the sales. I can count on one hand the amount of people that were concerned about the lack of FireWire. And on the same hand the amount of people that know what FireWire is. The people here on this forum, believe it or not represents a minority of the people that buy the MacBook.

I agree that it probably didn't make much of an impression on Apple, but over 18,000 people did sign the online petition.

 

[Mintin8]

Eliminating FireWire was a very bad idea.

This comment sums it all up.

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

I agree that it probably didn't make much of an impression on Apple, but over 18,000 people did sign the online petition.

At the same time, far more than 18,000 people don't care.

As I said before, I have FireWire devices. I'm just as affected by Apple's removal of FireWire than plenty of the rest of you. But the reality is, FireWire's importance to Apple's main target demographic is negligible. The reality is, there is no space for a FireWire port on the MacBook. You can argue that it's part of an upsell conspiracy, but the hard evidence of the tear-down pictures proves otherwise. Apple more than likely conducted market research in deciding to eliminate FireWire from the MacBook; judging from the customers where I work, a college bookstore, the market supported the removal of FireWire.

It's very possible that FireWire will return to the MacBook during the speed bump. Apple could decide to implement FW S800T. All it requires are the chips and a different ethernet port; no retooling necessary. Although that just means more adapters for the rest of us to deal with.

 

[NT1440]

What revision do you mean? The next major revision, maybe (but even then I doubt it). But not at a speed bump revision. You can't just a slap a port on a board and ship it. It requires design, layout, burn-in testing, and gearing up a production line. That takes several months at minimum.

If FW is going to come back on the MB, I would look to the Nehalem-based model that should come out next year. But that assumes Apple will admit it made a mistake, something that rarely happens (although you did mention one past instance of it). And it would erase the product differentiation point between the MB and the MBP.

No doubt, but apple, if they include it, will remain hush hush about it and act like they DIDNT run back to the drawing board. Hence it could very well show up during the next revision.

 

[Eric S.]

At the same time, far more than 18,000 people don't care.

I don't disagree with that, but that was in response to your comment that "I can count on one hand the amount of people that were concerned about the lack of FireWire." So there's substantially more than one handful.

The reality is, there is no space for a FireWire port on the MacBook. You can argue that it's part of an upsell conspiracy, but the hard evidence of the tear-down pictures proves otherwise.

That I disagree with. The board was laid out as it was as a result of the decision not to include Firewire, not the other way around.

It's very possible that FireWire will return to the MacBook during the speed bump. Apple could decide to implement FW S800T.

I doubt that too. That would require a substantial software and testing effort and there's no reason to do that just to support a single product.

 

[albusseverus]

… judging from the customers where I work, a college bookstore, the market supported the removal of FireWire.

I you only use your computer for emails and undergrad, typewritten reports (maybe a graph or diagram or two), you don't need a Mac, or even Windows. A unix EeePC with Open Office will do that more than adequately.

If you work in the creative industries - audio, video or even do the family photos, media library and videos, you need a no-fuss Mac. A FireWire-free MacBook is not a no-fuss Mac.

It's an insult to anyone on a budget… but that's Apple's recipe for the economic downturn, isn't it? Yuppie through the recession.

 

[NT1440]

I you only use your computer for emails and undergrad, typewritten reports (maybe a graph or diagram or two), you don't need a Mac, or even Windows. A unix EeePC with Open Office will do that more than adequately.

If you work in the creative industries - audio, video or even do the family photos, media library and videos, you need a no-fuss Mac. A FireWire-free MacBook is not a no-fuss Mac.

It's an insult to anyone on a budget… but that's Apple's recipe for the economic downturn, isn't it? Yuppie through the recession.

Been working great so far.

Reality is that 90% of computers out there are complete and total overkill for your average person who does mostly what you stated above. Hell it seems the only reason that 2GB has become standard in the market is to make sure vista can run.

 

[AidenShaw]

Vista and Leopard, you mean....

Hell it seems the only reason that 2GB has become standard in the market is to make sure vista can run.

You mean so that Vista *and* Leopard can run, right?

Or are you seriously suggesting that Apple is setting base configurations for Vista?

All Apple laptops and Imacs have 2 GiB or 4 GiB standard. Mac Pro 3 GiB or 6 Gib. The entry Mini Mac is the only Apple with less than 2 GiB standard.

Or is it simply that $26 worth of RAM is good for an entry system, regardless of the OS?

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

I don't disagree with that, but that was in response to your comment that "I can count on one hand the amount of people that were concerned about the lack of FireWire." So there's substantially more than one handful.

That I disagree with. The board was laid out as it was as a result of the decision not to include Firewire, not the other way around.

I doubt that too. That would require a substantial software and testing effort and there's no reason to do that just to support a single product.

For the first statement, sorry, I was referring to the context of customers I've interacted with since October in regards to the MacBooks.

For the second statement, I don't agree with that statement, but you know what? I really do find it pointless to argue something, especially when you don't have any sort of hard evidence and hard evidence that I use to back my claim can clearly be interpreted in all sorts of directions.

As for the third one, one can still hope. But with the constraints of the MacBook, it's the most likely and feasible way to implement FireWire. At least it won't require changing the manufacturing, re-engineering the case, and even more additional testing.

 

[NT1440]

You mean so that Vista *and* Leopard can run, right?

Or are you seriously suggesting that Apple is setting base configurations for Vista?

All Apple laptops and Imacs have 2 GiB or 4 GiB standard. Mac Pro 3 GiB or 6 Gib. The entry Mini Mac is the only Apple with less than 2 GiB standard.

Or is it simply that $26 worth of RAM is good for an entry system, regardless of the OS?

Srry, i used Vista because I was trying to talk big market. It seems to me that other than OS requirements, the vast majority of people would still be perfectly able to do their tasks running hardware from the ME era.

 

[AidenShaw]

Srry, i used Vista because I was trying to talk big market. It seems to me that other than OS requirements, the vast majority of people would still be perfectly able to do their tasks running hardware from the ME era.

I don't think that this is true. Our minimum expectation for "baseline" tasks has increased greatly.

Would you be happy with an ME-era system running YouTube, flash or many of the rich AJAX web pages? I don't think so.

I agree that most people don't need 3 GHz quad-core CPUs to do their work, but ME-era systems are in the class of 800 MHz Pentium IIIs. I don't think that those would make the average user happy today - but a 1.2 GHz Core 2 Duo certainly would.

 

[Eric S.]

As for the third one, one can still hope.

Sure, let's hope.

But with the constraints of the MacBook, it's the most likely and feasible way to implement FireWire. At least it won't require changing the manufacturing, re-engineering the case, and even more additional testing.

I agree. And then, if it works, you're only out of luck if you need ethernet and Firewire simultaneously.

 

[NT1440]

I agree. And then, if it works, you're only out of luck if you need ethernet and Firewire simultaneously.

Oh come on, who multitasks with a platform clearly made for multitasking?

 

[butterfly0fdoom]

I agree. And then, if it works, you're only out of luck if you need ethernet and Firewire simultaneously.

Indeed, but that *could* be a big problem for some people. I don't know who since I'm not even sure if the scenario in my mind is technically accurate, but... yeah.

 

[Sehnsucht]

Good grief, just switch to bloody Windows already and cease your spewing of noise!!! This pissing contest is absurd.

You lost all credibility when you played the fanboy card (i.e. fanboy = anyone who doesn't agree with you). The word "fanboy" is a classic Winbot label thrown at anyone who doesn't bow to the iron fist of the Redmond Horde. You'll fit right in on the other side.

Enjoy Windows hell (I should know - I'm in Windows 50 hours a week).

Can we all move on now?

Agreed! I'm going to be the better person here and not respond to Tosser's latest BS post. He is clearly here to illicit rage and reactions from other users. Since I wouldn't ever get involved in such a pointless argument in a roomful of people face-to-face, I see no need to carry it further on MR.

By the way (just thought I'd throw this in for comic relief). One of my British friends just pointed out that in British English, "tosser" is synonymous with "wanker" or "jerk off." Maybe that was intentional? Who knows.