Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[dolphin842]

The 12" PB was in my opinion the best notebook Apple has ever produced, and guess what? I didn't give jack **** that it was thicker than the rest. Apple needs to get off its thin preoccupation and give us an option for a kick ass 12" or 13" notebook with lots of beefy specs and ports.

The 12" PB was my first Mac, the only PowerBook I could have afforded. Say what you will about it, the 12" PB is a fan favorite. Just this year another friend of mine actually bought a used one. It can't encode stuff as fast as an Air, but it does the basics just as well. Don't forget Apple also gave you DVI and VGA adapters right in the box... ahh memories
</nostalgia>

OK, back on track.... no firewire in macbook? Grrr...grrr!!!

 

[synth3tik]

I am a forgetful person (This is not the fail of Apple)

Yesterday I forgot my power supply.
Today I remembered the power supply, but forgot my headphones and the FW cable for my TimeMachine drive.

Adapters and other accessories are not my friend. I always forget them.
I hate no FW on the MB, and I would hate the adapter for the MBP.

 

[MacFly123]

Well said, some people here are just clueless about how corporations work.

Amen! I would love to see some of the people in these forums make the decisions Steve has to make as a C.E.O. on a daily basis.

Apple is actually one of the better corporations as far as playing the milking game. What other corporation can anyone think of that obsoletes their best selling products on a regular basis to give us something innovative and cool just because that is what they would want instead of pumping out the same crap for years milking it for all that it is worth until they can't push it anymore?

What other companies give their customers a $100 credit to their store just because the price of tech goods gets cut often? Yet all these people do is complain when Apple is like an angel of a corporation compared to crap like Microsoft and every other corporation.

Apple forces the industry forward wherever they go, but there are always the whiners that are never happy. I am not saying Apple is perfect at all, but when I think of how I would want to run a corporation Apple is always the best example that comes to mind.

Apple is a for profit business ok people, why does it seem like no one in here realizes that? Corporations aren't just fun and games, there are responsibilities to share holders and many suits and lawyers involved, it's amazing how non-corporate Apple really runs in its decisions etc. while being such a huge company and it is because of the vision of people like Steve Jobs that it is like that.

Again, I'm not saying Apple is perfect or that everything should go unquestioned, but stop being cry babies people!

 

[synth3tik]

Amen! I would love to see some of the people in these forums make the decisions Steve has to make as a C.E.O. on a daily basis.

Steve is CEO, not VP of product development. He may protest an idea, but he is not the designer or engineer. He never was.

If we had Woz, he would have left FW400 on the MB.

 

[Scottsdale]

Yeah.

I have 3 HD cameras, 2 SD-DV cameras, and 1 DV deck that all require firewire. Total value? About $12,000.

Thanks Steve, I'll get right on replacing all those.

And to those who say "Well, can't you afford a Macbook Pro?" I ALREADY have a $3,500 Mac Pro and a $2,000 iMac. It would be nice to have a realitively inexpenisve little Macbook that's easy to carry around and can extend my abilities onto the road in a small way. Do I have to buy the freak'n top-of-the-line in EVERY category? I can't invest heavily in a desktop and just have a nice little, lighter, mid-range laptop to carry around?

Gah!

(And please don't point out the $999 Macbook to me. The point is that my only 2 solutions are to buy 'yesterday's technology' or buy the most expensive laptop. Those are both lame solutions.)

You know if you have $12k worth of camera equipment, you should probably buy the PRO. I would think you qualify as a "PRO" in owning $12k worth of video cameras. I am glad they didn't take up and waste that space with a technology that is the past as the USB2 interface is so much more popular.

Thanks Steve, good job.

 

[LillDrutten]

Steve is CEO, not VP of product development. He may protest an idea, but he is not the designer or engineer. He never was.

If we had Woz, he would have left FW400 on the MB.

Some one in the management should be FIREd!

 

[Shagrat]

You know if you have $12k worth of camera equipment, you should probably buy the PRO. I would think you qualify as a "PRO" in owning $12k worth of video cameras. I am glad they didn't take up and waste that space with a technology that is the past as the USB2 interface is so much more popular.

Thanks Steve, good job.

It is getting tedious pointing this out to those who just don't get this...if FW "is the past" then WHY put it on the MBP??? The MORE EXPENSIVE machine?

It is blatantly obvious that Apple's removing FW from the MB is simply a ploy to get current owners of an MB to have to buy an MBP to replace it when it finally reaches teh end of it's working life, KNOWING that (and if they didn't, i'll bet they do now) many of us Macheads have FW peripherals and would be extremely pissed off at this move.

I would have a new Ali MB right now, if it had FW, as it is, I will continue with my White MB, and review my options when it looks like it is on it's way out.

 

[Nuvi]

If we had Woz, he would have left FW400 on the MB.

YES! Bring back Woz! IMHO bring anyone who has some common engineering and usability sense. What will Ive eliminate next? The keyboard? Probably since its so last century and so horribly ugly as well.

Anyway, I'm afraid of what will happen next. Will Apple be ditching all the FW ports in the future on Pro's as well? My problem is that all of the high end digital cinema cameras (or the mags they are using) use FW400 or FW800. Camera manufacturers won't be changing to USB. No one takes it seriously within the industry. In the future it will be FW3200. If Apple doesn't play the ball then its bye bye Apple. The importance of the cams far exceeds the importance of OS X or Mac.

 

[trule]

(Firewire has more pins than USB).

Firewire has a 4 pin variant, the same as USB. However that does not mean much...

 

[iEdd]

That's like saying USB has 2 pins, if you aren't counting power pins for either.

 

[trule]

There are a lot of people like me who are just students or people who can't possibly afford a macbook pro and have in the past used their macbooks for editing video using imovie. Us folks don't have a lot of money but we love the apple platform like crazy. We don't want a super dupa macbook pro, but i feel this firewire port problem is just to push people away from the macbook line and spend more more on the macbook pro. Since even some of the early iMacs, Apple has included the firewire port and it has become a cool way to transfer files.

Sorry for your loss, welcome to the real world. Apple is about making money, putting a FW chip on a laptop is a cost, and if only a small percentage of users make use of this function (most people use USB as evidenced by the much wider availability of USB products) then it is better for Apple to direct the majority of these FW users to the Pro model.

They make more revenue on the Pro up-graders and they reduce the cost of the MB by reducing the chip count. Everyone else who wants a MB and does not want Firewire gets a cheaper laptop!

A few people, perhaps 10% of the MB Firewire users, get left behind. Thats you. Eventually that 10% will get over it, the same thing happened when Apple ditched the serial and parallel ports...people eventually get over it.


In the mean time, something like this might help you:

http://www.usbfirewire.com/Parts/rr-300008044.html

 

[Morriss]

In the mean time, something like this might help you:

http://www.usbfirewire.com/Parts/rr-300008044.html

"It sounds great, but is it Mac compatible?
Unfortunately our cable is not Mac compatible."

My main gripe is that they took away a feature and failed to replace it with something equal or better. They should have waited until USB 3.0 or something equivalent to FW was available to the Mac platform.

 

[trule]

My main gripe is that they took away a feature and failed to replace it with something equal or better.

They took it away and replaced it with a Macbook Pro, much better

Eventually, lust for the new laptops will make most people either replace their FW equipment OR buy the Pro model. People without the money to do that are going to be left behind

 

[Morriss]

They took it away and replaced it with a Macbook Pro, much better

Well, I certainly agree with that. This move was done to sell more MBP's to previous users of MB's.

 

[cube]

Steve is CEO, not VP of product development. He may protest an idea, but he is not the designer or engineer. He never was.

If we had Woz, he would have left FW400 on the MB.

It is NOT the enginners calling the shots. It's the money-over-function marketer(s) and eventual form-over-function designer(s) (and marketer(s))

 

[salilsundresh]

wtf, what a lie, look at the hvx200, xh-a1, xh-g1, xl-h1, hv20, etc. All have firewire, came out not too long ago, are hd, and don't use USB for transferring video. And why do we need to buy a hi-def camera? who cares? most people don't have blu-ray writers and the $30 discs to go with them. If this is steve's reason, he should start giving out free andromeda upgrades w/1tb drive to anyone that's bought a camera within the last 2 years that doesn't use USB.

Next thing you know...usb ports will be gone...

Hey well these days most people just stream their video from their pc over their LAN so no usb ports anymore!
- Steve

 

[LillDrutten]

They took it away and replaced it with a Macbook Pro, much better

Eventually, lust for the new laptops will make most people either replace their FW equipment OR buy the Pro model. People without the money to do that are going to be left behind

Well. For some people the computer is not the main tool. The new MBP have the infamous Agere firewire chip. So it won't do for pro music. It's the old MBP or a windows machine that is the options.

 

[Nuvi]

They took it away and replaced it with a Macbook Pro, much better

Eventually, lust for the new laptops will make most people either replace their FW equipment OR buy the Pro model. People without the money to do that are going to be left behind

Sure... It so fun when we are looking this from different perspectives. Last year my company spent well over $ 150 000 on Apple hardware and software. A kid running a MacBook doing what ever might have hard time understanding that pro's need backward compatibility. With FW its not even that since FW is much better then USB. What bothers me is the fact that people like you are now using Mac's.

 

[Belly-laughs]

They took it away and replaced it with a Macbook Pro, much better

And much bigger.

 

[-hh]

I could be mistaken, But I have yet to see any evidence these online petitions work.

Plan B: Go visit an Apple Store in person. Get a salesperson to help you shop...and then express dissatisfaction at the 'improved' model.

The 12" PB (not MBP) didn't make Apple enough money because it took away sales from the higher-end models, the same way a 13" MBP or a MB with FireWire would.

The 12" -vs- 15" Powerbook comparison can be summarized as:

Sacrifices

• a slower CPU
• no backlit keyboard
• a smaller screen
• a "worse" (lower resolution) screen
• no PC card slot
• no FW800 port
• 10% shorter battery life

Gains

• $300 less
• smaller form factor
• 1lb lighter

YMMV if this was an acceptable trade-off to you, but the real thing to remember is that while the 12" PB may have taken away from some 15" sales, it was obviously 'cheaper' to build due to these lower-performance items, plus we need to remember that lower price isn't the same thing as being less profitable.

I only read up until page 16 or so, but didn't see anyone mentioning the fact that there was no room in the current form factor for the firewire port.

If you really want to have the firewire 400 port on the macbook, you must give up 1 of those ports. Which one would you sacrifice? The MagSafe, Display Port, and the "kensington port" definitely have to stay.

Your question has already been covered..it can be done.

And in looking at ifixit's disassembly photos, there's another way that it can be done: the Kensington port can be shifted an inch (into the battery compartment area) and a FW port put there. The reason I mention this is because this approach allows the MacBook's motherboard to be extended by ~3/4" so that there's definitely room to add the Firewire chip & supporting circuits.

Would you give up the ethernet port, or the 2nd USB port?

A double-stack USB is another design option used by some PC notebooks.

Although a better question is when is the USB going to get rid of that utterly horrible connector and go to something that is smaller and not lacking an orientation cue for its UI.

Signed . Well folks I guess its time to max out the RAM and put larger 7200 RPM hard drives in your previous generation MacBooks!

Or (only 3 years old) G4 PowerBooks. I had been debating this, and this clinches my plans.

But you don't seem notice that the general trend is moving away from firewire, USB is the future...

USB3 is going to be a compatibility nightmare. You can quote me on that.

They haven't ditched firewire, they include firewire on all their computer models except the Macbook Air and the new Macbooks...

"Except for..."? Here's the same data, merely presented differently

Over the last six months, all of the new computers released by Apple have "ditched Firewire" except for one (MacBook Pro).

Maybe Apple know something about USB 3.0 that we don't yet. Intel have (apparently) made great strides in streamlining and synchronizing the new standards to their chipsets, and if the rumors of a 4.8Gbps data transfer rate are true, FireWire--in any incarnation--will soon become a curious footnote in the history of computing. Give Steve Jobs a bit of credit--he generally knows what he's doing!

They're able to make "great strides" because current USB is so horrifically bad. If Intel doesn't improve the efficiency of USB's protocol, after you subtract off this overhead, USB3's real world data transfer rate will be around 2.5Gbps.

In the meantime, FW3200's standard has been finalized, its overhead rate is 3% (so real world throughput will be ~3.1Gbps), there's silicone samples shipping and it continues to feature (IIRC "isochronous") protocols to not screw up time-sensitive data streams.

Evolve or die--same as it ever was...

Sure, but how is it thus necessary to take a step backwards in capability while we wait for the future? The analogy is that the future is flying cars and in anticipation, they've stopped selling normal automobiles and gone back to the Horse & Buggy ... because the future isn't here yet.

USB 3 is not here yet, but FireWire is. Why dump a protocol that is still current technology while hoping that newer technology will come soon. I may love USB 3 when compared to FireWire, but at least frickin wait til the technology is available.

Exactly.

I'll bet anything that, just like firewire 400 is faster than USB 2.0 despite on paper USB looking faster, that firewire 3200 (maybe even 800) is faster than USB 3.0 at sustained speeds. Plus since firewire is constantly streaming, instead of USB which transfers in bursts, firewire will be better at transferring live data.

Yup.

Has anyone considered that the USB ports in the new 'books might already be USB 3.0?

Its not there.

FYI, USB3 is really nothing more than a poor copy of Fiberchannel that's been piggybacked into a USB2 connector to as to dupe the Windows public into thinking that it is an incremental change.


-hh

 

[-Markus-]

For me I can say, I was going to convert from windows to mac by buying the new MacBook. And one of the reasons for changing was the ability to transfer home made movies and edit them. Now when this is no longer possible I can not do this.This means that Apple just lost one new costumer. I know that there are more peaple thinking like me.

So I really hope that Apple will reconsider their decision and include Firewire on the Macbook in the near future.

 

[ZenErik]

For me I can say, I was going to convert from windows to mac by buying the new MacBook. And one of the reasons for changing was the ability to transfer home made movies and edit them. Now when this is no longer possible I can not do this.This means that Apple just lost one new costumer. I know that there are more peaple thinking like me.

So I really hope that Apple will reconsider their decision and include Firewire on the Macbook in the near future.

Apple also lost me as a returning customer. I love OS X, but this is utter crap. My 2 recording interfaces are firewire. Mackie Onyx 1640 and a Presonus Firebox. I don't have the money for the outrageously overpriced MBP models, and the MBs are now more expensive and without USB.

 

[MrCrowbar]

Question: Can I buy a Macbook, then return it (package still sealed) without restocking fee? They come with an additional cardboard box around here...

I wanna buy one and return it the same or next day. When the clerc ask "Why?", I can tell him: "The package doesn't mention firewire. So I looked it up on the internet and, sure enough, it has no firewire. This is bull****, I need firewire." Maybe if enough people do that, Apple will get scared.

 

[bilbo--baggins]

Well. For some people the computer is not the main tool. The new MBP have the infamous Agere firewire chip. So it won't do for pro music. It's the old MBP or a windows machine that is the options.

What is the 'infamous' Agere firewire chip? Why won't it do for pro music? I sent an email to Apogee and that replied saying there was no reason not to expect my Duet to work with the firewire 800 port on the MBP. Unfortunately as a 2nd Mac I cannot afford the MBP, and I'd prefer the smaller size of the MB.

 

[diamond.g]

Well, I certainly agree with that. This move was done to sell more MBP's to previous users of MB's.

too bad they forgot to release the 13" Macbook Pro while doing so.