Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[robanga]

Here's another thought for the industrious of all of you. Why not start a company for just the "professional"

Get a little angel funding on a good business plan. Hire a good industrial designer, engage some hardware ODM's from Asia, hire a team of application developers and do a Linux box but with very specific applications for the creative professional. You could put six firewire ports on a machine if you wanted too.

$3 to $5 million might be enough to open your doors, hire some people and get a few suppliers lined up as well as some proof of concept software. With that would come a little PR like prystar has done for instance.

Open source is hot, it might work. After that you raise maybe an additional $25 to $ 40 million to get a few models to market with version one of your software suite, and you are off to the races.

Sounds like fun

 

[editguy]

That's right...When did all the unwashed masses start moving over to the Mac? We all know Apple should just exist for the "professional" photography, music, video market. Because that is a huge market after all.

Hey I have nothing against firewire. I use it on two of my Macs, but to think that tape is the past, present and future of all cameras is a bit silly. Even though a lot of people here like to malign my choice in HD cameras (a Canon AVHCD model that records to a hard disk), I really like the results. So the future might not be so bleak after all.

I don't think that tape will exist forever. But it exists NOW and will for the near-term because there are millions of firewire cameras and more being sold today and will continue to be sold in the foreseeable future. I agree that eventually some form of flash memory will be the norm for prosumer and pro cameras. But I don't live in the future. I live today, and today I need firewire. And, as I've mentioned previously in this thread, as a high school video production teacher I know that we will replace computers more frequently than cameras. Without firewire on the Mac (assuming they drop it from the iMac) we will be moving to PC's.
Also, many of you keep ignoring that video is just one of many uses for firewire.

 

[editguy]

"Form" is very much a part of function for a laptop. Obviously. If you don't care about form yourself, which are you even buying a laptop? Desktop and deskside machines provide much more functionality and value.

Desktops are not portable. And this is a spurious argument because there are a number of well designed PC laptops that have all the connectors in a smaller footprint than the MBP (they're just a little thicker than the Macs. I know, I know, thinness is some kind of new god at Apple). Additionally, Apple was able to include it prior to the latest revision of the MB. What additional function did this new form provide other than aesthetics? Aesthetics should be secondary to functionality for any tool.

 

[Eric S.]

There's a chance that after this revision, they'll bring it back in some way or another. I really hope so.

If Apple has decided that FireWire is a technology about to go extinct, then it won't be back and it will gradually disappear from other models as well.

On the other hand, if Apple is only using the lack of FireWire on the MB to differentiate it from the MBP, then it could come back but not until that is no longer a factor. In other words at least not until the next major revision, which is likely the Nehalem laptops a year or more from now. Even then, reversing a technology decision is kind of rare for Apple.

 

[koobcamuk]

If Apple has decided that FireWire is a technology about to go extinct, then it won't be back and it will gradually disappear from other models as well.

On the other hand, if Apple is only using the lack of FireWire on the MB to differentiate it from the MBP, then it could come back but not until that is no longer a factor. In other words at least not until the next major revision, which is likely the Nehalem laptops a year or more from now. Even then, reversing a technology decision is kind of rare for Apple.

I reckon they will drop the MacBook/Pro lineup and call them all MacBooks. The Pro isn't really that different now - the MacBook is almost there (esp high end). Just add a firewire port to the 13" already!

In fact, they should rename all three sizes "PowerBook".

Then they should rename the white MacBook "iBook" and make a 15" version of that.

Then we could all calm the hell down.

 

[deadkenny]

Maybe interesting: Apple said they will use DisplayPort on all new products from now on. All new products includes new iMacs and new MacPros.
They would need a whole new line of cinema displays then. The 24" LED Cinema Display is aimed at notebooks (the Magsafe Connecter).
Unlike the other Cinema Displays the new one doesn't have FireWire either.

 

[koobcamuk]

Maybe interesting: Apple said they will use DisplayPort on all new products from now on. All new products includes new iMacs and new MacPros.
They would need a whole new line of cinema displays then. The 24" LED Cinema Display is aimed at notebooks (the Magsafe Connecter).
Unlike the other Cinema Displays the new one doesn't have FireWire either.

I think they will only keep the 24" LED display and will remove all other sizes. 24" is cheaper to make and is pretty much half way between 20" and 30".

 

[ateslik]

The Petition is at 15520 signatures.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?MB1394

Assuming only 30% (4656) make good on their promise to buy, that would be over $6 million in sales if all opted for the $1299 model and over $7.25 million in sales if all opted for the $1599 model.

If only 10% (1552) buy, thats over $2 million for the $1299 model, and over $2.25 million for the $1599 model.

Realistically, this is a singular decision that is directly tied to millions of dollars in lost sales. Its even more unfortunate that the lost business due to customer dissatisfaction is incalculable.

Removing firewire is a poor business decision that I just cannot understand.

 

[840quadra]

I bet only 10% of those people wrote to Apple directly. In other words 15,000 people likely wasted their time with that petition.

Companies like Apple like to gather their own statistics, and place them into their own database so they can ensure both accuracy, and validity of their claims. And honestly 15,000 isn't that big of a number to a company like Apple sadly . They have had education orders that dwarf that number.

I could care less about the FireWire debate as I don't personally need it in a Macbook. I wish you folks success in your cause.

 

[danny_w]

I bet only 10% of those people wrote to Apple directly. In other words 15,000 people likely wasted their time with that petition.

Companies like Apple like to gather their own statistics, and place them into their own database so they can ensure both accuracy, and validity of their claims. And honestly 15,000 isn't that big of a number to a company like Apple sadly . They have had education orders that dwarf that number.

I could care less about the FireWire debate as I don't personally need it in a Macbook. I wish you folks success in your cause.

Yes, and companies routinely foul up said statistics too. At every company I have ever been at we, the lowly grunt workers, have always wondered how they came up with such nonsense statistics, and yet the companies wondered why their carefully planned programs failed. Companies often put far too much faith in statistics that they gather themselves; said statistics most often end up saying exactly what the company wants to hear, because the people gathering the statistics massage the numbers until they produce the desired result. As has been said many times, you can make statistics show whatever in the world you want them to show if you work hard enough at it.

EDIT: At one company I worked for my boss set up a group to research the best cpu for our next product. Of course the manager had a specific cpu in mind, and kept sending us back to do some more "research" until we came up with the answer that he wanted.

 

[editguy]

They have had education orders that dwarf that number.

Yes, and speaking as an educator, I believe that this is one of the markets they are putting at risk. If you have to switch to PC's for firewire for video production labs (assuming what I believe, that they will drop it form the iMac, too. And I hope I'm wrong!), many district IT would prefer to switch everything so they only have to support one or the other.

 

[840quadra]

As has been said many times, you can make statistics show whatever in the world you want them to show if you work hard enough at it.

I see your points, but Apple has been known to respond to customer complaints quite a few times.

Here are some examples that come to mind
- First generation iMac was released with a 56k modem as opposed to 33.6
- Puck Mouse was replaced with the black single button "rocker style" mouse.
- Release of an Aluminum version of the Macbook (sadly without Firewire)

Also, I am sorry but QC on online partitions is non existent. I can vote endless times and there is nothing stopping me. This means that there is no control, and that the entire sample can be rejected.

15539. mattw Please bring firewire back (2nd vote)
15538. Matt W Please bring it back

Both of those posts were done by myself on the same computer, in the same browser, within seconds of each other. Check for yourself here. Apple and other corporations are aware of the lack of accuracy in these things, and will likely continue to ignore them.

Yes, and speaking as an educator, I believe that this is one of the markets they are putting at risk. If you have to switch to PC's for firewire for video production labs (assuming what I believe, that they will drop it form the iMac, too. And I hope I'm wrong!), many district IT would prefer to switch everything so they only have to support one or the other.

Well you could at least quote me correctly so I don't look like a doof without spell check .

Anyway you have some great points. I wonder if they kept the White MacBook for education customers though? I can't imagine that many educators go for mid to high level Macbooks. If my memory is correct, the huge Apple education orders were mostly Base level units (but that data is old (g3 days)).

 

[editguy]

Well you could at least quote me correctly so I don't look like a doof without spell check .

Anyway you have some great points. I wonder if they kept the White MacBook for education customers though? I can't imagine that many educators go for mid to high level Macbooks. If my memory is correct, the huge Apple education orders were mostly Base level units (but that data is old (g3 days)).

Sorry, I'm the doof. Fixed it.

I hope they are keeping the White MB, and I hope I'm wrong about what they will do with the revision of the iMac. I'm just afraid that they've signaled not only the end of firewire, but the end of them seeing content creators as a vital part of their market.

 

[danny_w]

Sorry, I'm the doof. Fixed it.

I hope they are keeping the White MB, and I hope I'm wrong about what they will do with the revision of the iMac. I'm just afraid that they've signaled not only the end of firewire, but the end of them seeing content creators as a vital part of their market.

It's a pity for not only content creators but for hobbyists as well. I have played around a little bit with iMovie, but not nearly enough to justify upgrading my camcorder. Even as little as I might use firewire I would not even consider the new Macbook. If the new iMac also removes firewire then I probably will not be getting another Mac of any kind, and will look elsewhere when it comes time to upgrade. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted. Now what do I tell my wife that I finally talked into getting a Mac?

 

[ateslik]

I am sorry but QC on online partitions is non existent. I can vote endless times and there is nothing stopping me. This means that there is no control, and that the entire sample can be rejected.

I totally agree - hence the very low percentage used in my calculations.

Here's another statistic since I'm in a statistical mood - this thread is about to become the 3rd most replied thread since 2006 on MacRumors:

https://forums.macrumors.com/forums/4/&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount

I not sure if thats since "the beginning" or if they purge threads older than 2006.

 

[myca]

I totally agree - hence the very low percentage used in my calculations.

Here's another statistic since I'm in a statistical mood - this thread is about to become the 3rd most replied thread since 2006 on MacRumors:

https://forums.macrumors.com/forums/4/&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount

I not sure if thats since "the beginning" or if they purge threads older than 2006.

Well on a statistical note, it's interesting to see that on Apples forums the "No Firewire; many possible problems" thread has over 700 replies (that's after Apple erased god knows how many), and it has over 23 thousand views. I guess that would tell them that there may be a problem with their judgement on this issue.

 

[danny_w]

Well on a statistical note, it's interesting to see that on Apples forums the "No Firewire; many possible problems" thread has over 700 replies (that's after Apple erased god knows how many), and it has over 23 thousand views. I guess that would tell them that there may be a problem with their judgement on this issue.

At least Apple has left the thread intact, even if they have several posts. Many other firewire threads have been totally deleted, never to be seen again.

 

[840quadra]

Sorry, I'm the doof. Fixed it.

I hope they are keeping the White MB, and I hope I'm wrong about what they will do with the revision of the iMac. I'm just afraid that they've signaled not only the end of firewire, but the end of them seeing content creators as a vital part of their market.

Haha, no harm done, and no offense taken! I hope your concerns don not turn into reality either! Apple losing their focus on Education would be a bigger mistep than the exclusion of Firewire on consumer laptops!

I totally agree - hence the very low percentage used in my calculations.

Here's another statistic since I'm in a statistical mood - this thread is about to become the 3rd most replied thread since 2006 on MacRumors:

https://forums.macrumors.com/forums/4/&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount

I not sure if thats since "the beginning" or if they purge threads older than 2006.

Oh they have archives, and threads get moved there after a period, unless they are thrown to waseland.



Still have a long way to go until we hit 6,000+ replies .

 

[localoid]

...
Still have a long way to go until we hit 6,000+ replies .

It took 6 months for that thread to reach 6,000+ replies.

This thread was started less than two weeks ago and already has 1,700+ replies.

 

[circuitry]

We all know the firewire's advantage for targeting market. I think jobs want the "targeting" costumer to buy a pro. And the macbook is a universel edition.

 

[cosmonaut23]

Paranoid?

Well on a statistical note, it's interesting to see that on Apples forums the "No Firewire; many possible problems" thread has over 700 replies (that's after Apple erased god knows how many), and it has over 23 thousand views. I guess that would tell them that there may be a problem with their judgement on this issue.

Strikes me that would be rather a good place to vent our spleens / tell it like it is, much as we've been doing here.

However, after attempting to access that thread, Safari gave me a "slow script" warning, and i was unable to close the page, having to force-quit. This happened every time, but not on any other thread i looked at. Similar thing happened with Firefox, although not crashing the program.

Has anyone else encountered this? (I've warned you it may crash Safari) -

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1751964&tstart=0

And given the news (quoted earlier in this discussion) that Apple have been deleting negative comments from their forum about lack of FW on the MB, would it be paranoid to think that this might be another deliberate Apple tactic to silence dissent?

 

[Eric S.]

We all know the firewire's advantage for targeting market. I think jobs want the "targeting" costumer to buy a pro. And the macbook is a universel edition.

I know Halloween is approaching but it never occurred to me that Apple is targeting costumers!

 

[localoid]

... However, after attempting to access that thread, Safari gave me a "slow script" warning, and i was unable to close the page, having to force-quit. This happened every time, but not on any other thread i looked at. Similar thing happened with Firefox, although not crashing the program.

Has anyone else encountered this? (I've warned you it may crash Safari) -

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1751964&tstart=0

...

Same thing here -- the link eventually causes Safari to crash after numerous slow script warnings.

 

[840quadra]

It took 6 months for that thread to reach 6,000+ replies.

This thread was started less than two weeks ago and already has 1,700+ replies.

Good point, however there almost double the amount of active forum users now than there was back in 2004. But since I too am in a statistical mood (and we are already way off topic), lets take a close look at the differences.

During the first 24 hours of this thread there were 768 Posts
During the last 24 hours in this thread, there was only 41 posts (up to Post #1748)

First 24 hours of the G5 thead there were 110 posts
During the 24 hour period prior to post #1748 in the G5 thread, there was 257 posts

That thread continued to build momentum for quite a long time, and eventually leveled off, much like this one is starting to do now . The other issue is, moderators tend to shut down threads when the topic is exhausted, or when they near 3,000 posts.

Don't worry I didn't spend too much time gathering that data, Vb has some really good search functions .

 

[localoid]

Good point, however there almost double the amount of active forum users now than there was back in 2004. But since I too am in a statistical mood (and we are already way off topic), lets take a close look at the differences.

During the first 24 hours of this thread there were 768 Posts
During the last 24 hours in this thread, there was only 41 posts (up to Post #1748)

First 24 hours of the G5 thead there were 110 posts
During the 24 hour period prior to post #1748 in the G5 thread, there was 257 posts

That thread continued to build momentum for quite a long time, and eventually leveled off, much like this one is starting to do now . The other issue is, moderators tend to shut down threads when the topic is exhausted, or when they near 3,000 posts.

Don't worry I didn't spend too much time gathering that data, Vb has some really good search functions .

The issue isn't going to die, even if MacRumors closes this thread, or if Apple continues to delete posts that don't follow the "party line" and adhere to the "Apple knows best" concept.

The decision will come back to haunt Apple eventually, no matter how hard you try to spin the issue in a different direction.

Apple seems to be suffering from group think.

Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.

Social psychologist Clark McCauley's three conditions under which groupthink occurs:

Directive leadership.
Homogeneity of members' social background and ideology.
Isolation of the group from outside sources of information and analysis.