Small White Car
macrumors G4
Because they have a different POV?
He didn't say ANYTHING about the guy's opinion. He only quoted a single word from his post and it was not the opinion part of the post.
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Steve Jobs Posts 'Thoughts on Flash' Open Letter
- Thread starter Lordillingworth
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Because they have a different POV?
He didn't say ANYTHING about the guy's opinion. He only quoted a single word from his post and it was not the opinion part of the post.
FoxyKaye
macrumors 68000
I don't think it's the case that people aren't grasping this, it's just that Jobs' essentially built strawman logic around his justification for not supporting Flash. Change a few words and application names in his letter, and it could easily be Adobe's response talking about Apple's products. It's about Apple's posturing itself as some sort of great martyr for the cause of open standards that's ironic.
sushi
Moderator emeritus
This makes complete sense.
Personally, I like cross platform development environments as long as they take advantage of each platforms benefits. Neutered software is not what I want.
Agree.
The last time they did this, was with Postscript fonts. Thankfully, Apple created True Type and ended up licensing it to Microsoft.
Hopefully, this time Adobe will get the point, and move to the HTML5 standard for their products.
So basically your arguing that Apple is the man becuase Flash is "entrenched" meaning that Flash is the man too? I don't get that argument...so becuase Flash is everywhere we should just accept it?
I don't think either this is about giving consumers what they want becuase consumers want different things...and consumers have choice...while we're arguing about Flash on Iphones why not argue why a mac user can't use a Zune on their mac becuase the software isn't able to run on a mac.
You don't know what you're talking about.
This bolded statement alone shows why your opinion is not grounded in reason. Rollover support isn't just something that they haven't "figured out," it's something that can't be possible given the way you interact with the device. Please think about this hard and get back to us.
This bolded statement alone shows why your opinion is not grounded in reason. Rollover support isn't just something that they haven't "figured out," it's something that can't be possible given the way you interact with the device. Please think about this hard and get back to us.
I agree, a new standard that is used by EVERYONE and makes me access MOSTLY websites, videos and games should be the ultimate goal.
However as long this is the case (which will be for maybe 1 or 2 more years), denying your customers the option to use Flash is a slap in your face.
JediZenMaster
Suspended
HTC = Has no devices that support a real GM Version of Flash. There is a beta version of Flash 10.1 Which is supported by Select versions of Android and only then By certain Android devices. Adobe has pushed the Official release for flash back about 5 times. So They can't even roll it out properly
Nokia and Motorola Use Flash lite which is not even full flash and here are some of the Disadvantages . Its limited availability means a limited audience compared with that of Java ME, Symbian, or BREW.
Relatively poor graphical performance (due to the more complex processing required for vector graphics).
Poor handling of sound compared to other programs
I wouldn't worry too much.
"Today the two companies still work together to serve their joint creative customers Mac users buy around half of Adobes Creative Suite products but beyond that there are few joint interests."
And as for this...
"Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."
I started to cheer out loud when I read this line! 😀 BUUURRRRNNNN & AMENNN!!! Adobe, shut your mouth and get to work on new open based products PERIOD! 🙄
John.B
macrumors 601
Do you buy anything, period? Seriously, all I ever see you post is what you won't spend money on.
JediZenMaster
Suspended
Yeah but the use the word AMEN was taken out of context. There are various ways you can use the word. For example when my friend who is late to dinner all the time. Finally Shows up on time and i say "AMEN Brother" it doesn't mean i worship him.
Small White Car
macrumors G4
Change what words?
What closed web standards does Apple support? H.264? Because even if there are money issues there it's not something a single company owns. To me, that's the big difference there.
But other than that, what else are you talking about?
Steve Jobs said:
Well, Steve references how great games are on the iPhone and then says this:
Steve Jobs said:
Again, he seems to be totally clueless about game development. Many of the top games on Apple's store were either made with middleware, or are developed using cross platform tools! He demoed Tap Tap Revenge, seemingly oblivious to the fact that it was made with Lua scripting or that many of the games on his store are made with Unity or iTorque.
I'm not surprised that an old man is clueless about video games. Imagine if Roger Ebert ran Apple. He wouldn't care about game development either.
Xtremehkr
macrumors 68000
This is great, not too many CEO's are willing to interact with their customer base like Steve Job's does.
I think that at some point, Adobe and Microsoft must have collaborated a little to under develop Flash and other Adobe products for Apple. The difference in performance between Flash on W7 and OSX is remarkable. Though, flash still isn't that great on W7, either.
For years Apple must have had to eat their discontent with Adobe's ********.
In the coming years, Apple developed into a powerhouse and Adobe managed to get even lazier and their products quality fell even more.
I like to think that this was what helped SJ survive his liver condition. The secret burning desire to be around long enough to exact revenge on Adobe and their crappy software.
I think that at some point, Adobe and Microsoft must have collaborated a little to under develop Flash and other Adobe products for Apple. The difference in performance between Flash on W7 and OSX is remarkable. Though, flash still isn't that great on W7, either.
For years Apple must have had to eat their discontent with Adobe's ********.
In the coming years, Apple developed into a powerhouse and Adobe managed to get even lazier and their products quality fell even more.
I like to think that this was what helped SJ survive his liver condition. The secret burning desire to be around long enough to exact revenge on Adobe and their crappy software.
easy... that site probably would have been easier to make in HTML5 than in flash.
it's a site like http://www.ashesandsnow.org that would take a bit more tweaking to get to look even close to the flash version. maybe with the canvas features though it could be done.
There is a place for flash ...it's just not on the mobile web or as a app development tool.
oh really???
Apple listens to their customers like every other company on the planet.
Enough people complain and they will fix it, guaranteed.
I bought an iPad and have been basically doing R&D for my teenagers. They both wanted an iPad to use as a school computer. Uses: Reading, research, papers, games.
After three weeks of testing, they WON'T be getting an iPad for those four uses. They will be getting a netbook or a macbook. Why? Because the iPad as it is right now has horrendous paper creating capabilities, and right now doesn't even support printing. And yes, because my kids can't play their silly flash games. Free games flash games are far better than paying for games on the iPad.
Just because touch is cool does not make it the all powerful tool.
I use a detached keyboard, which makes typing tolerable. However, you have no idea how much you use the complicated features of a mouse until you are forced to use touch instead. And reaching up to touch your screen is an order of magnitude less productive than using a mouse. Less accurate is a massive understatement.
Bottom line, I will be voicing my opinion non-stop. Ipad should support a cursor AND mouse, should print, and should support FLASH!!!! no doubt about it.
Apple is basically trying to mind-meld the masses, convincing the world that we simply don't need these archaic computing devices, such BS.
Apple listens to their customers like every other company on the planet.
Enough people complain and they will fix it, guaranteed.
I bought an iPad and have been basically doing R&D for my teenagers. They both wanted an iPad to use as a school computer. Uses: Reading, research, papers, games.
After three weeks of testing, they WON'T be getting an iPad for those four uses. They will be getting a netbook or a macbook. Why? Because the iPad as it is right now has horrendous paper creating capabilities, and right now doesn't even support printing. And yes, because my kids can't play their silly flash games. Free games flash games are far better than paying for games on the iPad.
Just because touch is cool does not make it the all powerful tool.
I use a detached keyboard, which makes typing tolerable. However, you have no idea how much you use the complicated features of a mouse until you are forced to use touch instead. And reaching up to touch your screen is an order of magnitude less productive than using a mouse. Less accurate is a massive understatement.
Bottom line, I will be voicing my opinion non-stop. Ipad should support a cursor AND mouse, should print, and should support FLASH!!!! no doubt about it.
Apple is basically trying to mind-meld the masses, convincing the world that we simply don't need these archaic computing devices, such BS.
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
WWDC 2010 is looking like a mobile only party.
Do games on Steam count?
There are a good number of points in here, but the gems are embedded in the details.
If Apple has bugged Adobe to fix issues in flash that crash Macs for over 3 years with no resolution, I sure as hell wouldn't promote ANY of their products.
If they took a decade to finally release a Cocoa-based Creative Suite, I wouldn't promote ANY of their products, even if it was their products that helped to keep Apple afloat 10+ years ago.
It just seems like to Adobe that product development on Mac versions of their products isn't enough of a "profit center" to bother with for so long, eventually if you're Apple (and Steve) you just say "Screw it, we'll make it work our own way without them" and HTML5 w/ H.264 is how they did it. Yeah HTML5 is still in its infancy, but for 80+% of the Flash apps out there it'll work.
If Apple has bugged Adobe to fix issues in flash that crash Macs for over 3 years with no resolution, I sure as hell wouldn't promote ANY of their products.
If they took a decade to finally release a Cocoa-based Creative Suite, I wouldn't promote ANY of their products, even if it was their products that helped to keep Apple afloat 10+ years ago.
It just seems like to Adobe that product development on Mac versions of their products isn't enough of a "profit center" to bother with for so long, eventually if you're Apple (and Steve) you just say "Screw it, we'll make it work our own way without them" and HTML5 w/ H.264 is how they did it. Yeah HTML5 is still in its infancy, but for 80+% of the Flash apps out there it'll work.
Social experiment opportunity
Hey, everyone bookmark this discussion and set your calendar for 2 year from today to revisit. It is going to be hilarious to re-read these pro-flash/anti-apple or closed vs open comments in light of what will be the new computing reality.
My money is on Apple, for the record.
Hey, everyone bookmark this discussion and set your calendar for 2 year from today to revisit. It is going to be hilarious to re-read these pro-flash/anti-apple or closed vs open comments in light of what will be the new computing reality.
My money is on Apple, for the record.
Stately
macrumors 6502a
Steve put it all on the table in a detailed, thorough way. I'm sure someone will still state that Apple secludes itself and that owners of their products are just people with elitist attitudes when they should actually now be able to clearly see that, Steve does things for reasons other than control of the masses. Please . . 🙄
JediZenMaster
Suspended
Great and just remember all the buzz that your creating will work against your purpose because the more negative publicity will create good buzz. For a good example of this look at the Kitty Kelly tell all book written about oprah . Apple has alot of users out there and a couple of unhappy people on a message board won't hurt the company. 😎 Meanwhile ill continue to enjoy my apple products because they do what I need them to
What I get from the letter is that Apple wants control over their platform to make sure all its features are taken full advantage of. Their whole marketing strategy is having a device that just works and does not frustrate you. They aren't aimed at people who want to tweek or customize stuff. They are aimed at people who just want to take it out of the box and use it and not have to worry about that.
That is who they are selling too and I think keeping that in mind and keeping in mind that APple does want full control over their devices in order to make sure the user experience is what Apple wants it to be, this comes off as a smart move.
Yes, they are here to make money. And they have chosen to market to a certain market that they feel having a more controlling environment over what is put on their devices so the device works how they want it to (smoothly with little problems) is more important to their market than allowing people (and developers) choice. (They don't want developers to have it as they don't want them all going to just using Flash to program and not taking advantage of features on the iphone/ipod special to it and therefore losing the experience Apple is trying to give Apple's buyers).
Yes, you could put a disclaimer everytime some one actived Flash. Then have customer support say, "Oh, did you activate flash?" But do you realize that to the kind of people who would call and complain not understanding the disclaimer are the kind who would think that Apple was just trying to weasel their way out of doing anything about the problem. Instead, by just not allowing it, people will choose whether they care that much and either buy it and realize they can't do that and accept it, or go elsewhere. Yes, may lose some sales but the overall experience and word of mouth how well Apple works stays good.
I think some of you don't realize Apple is not marketing towards your general geek. They are marketing towards the general masses and people who don't really care about the details, they just want something that works smoothly and gives a good experience.
That is who they are selling too and I think keeping that in mind and keeping in mind that APple does want full control over their devices in order to make sure the user experience is what Apple wants it to be, this comes off as a smart move.
Yes, they are here to make money. And they have chosen to market to a certain market that they feel having a more controlling environment over what is put on their devices so the device works how they want it to (smoothly with little problems) is more important to their market than allowing people (and developers) choice. (They don't want developers to have it as they don't want them all going to just using Flash to program and not taking advantage of features on the iphone/ipod special to it and therefore losing the experience Apple is trying to give Apple's buyers).
Yes, you could put a disclaimer everytime some one actived Flash. Then have customer support say, "Oh, did you activate flash?" But do you realize that to the kind of people who would call and complain not understanding the disclaimer are the kind who would think that Apple was just trying to weasel their way out of doing anything about the problem. Instead, by just not allowing it, people will choose whether they care that much and either buy it and realize they can't do that and accept it, or go elsewhere. Yes, may lose some sales but the overall experience and word of mouth how well Apple works stays good.
I think some of you don't realize Apple is not marketing towards your general geek. They are marketing towards the general masses and people who don't really care about the details, they just want something that works smoothly and gives a good experience.
MorphingDragon
macrumors 603
The really really sad thing about the open letter is, a majority of the 3D and Graphics design community felt that way about flash in the first place. (Well not exactly the same, but strikingly similar)
Small White Car
macrumors G4
What the heck are you talking about? Did Apple stop selling the Macbook?
No? It's still there?
Hm, look at that. They sell a product taht does all the things you need...how is that "mind-melding the masses?" Did you try to buy a Macbook and they "mind-melded" you out of it?
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
In all honesty, with the lack of incentive on the Mac hardware side, I'll more than likely be spending my computer budget on a new computer desk, U2410, and a new video card instead of a MacBook.