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I suppose that may have created some influence. But it shouldn't have been a defining factor to anyone with half an understanding of software. Bluray can also be hacked, and is. (there are plenty of region-free players, too)

That's one opinion in the article. And, surprise!, it comes from the inventor of the BD+ scheme. So I'd like my grain of salt, please.

And, as the article even mentions, the over-the-top protection really pissed off many customers and hindered the growth of BD, when brand new players could not play brand new discs. The studios had to calm down, stop playing with all the "toys" BD offers and make discs that would actually work. Otherwise, I feel DVD would be our only choice today.
 
I suppose that may have created some influence. But it shouldn't have been a defining factor to anyone with half an understanding of software. Bluray can also be hacked, and is. (there are plenty of region-free players, too)

That's one opinion in the article. And, surprise!, it comes from the inventor of the BD+ scheme. So I'd like my grain of salt, please.

You can have your salt, I'm just elaborating on this one factor I remember to prove I didn't pull it out of my ass

I don't think it's the only factor or the primary factor, but some of the studios did react based on how they thought the DRM would affect future profits. BD+ is hacked now, but it wasn't back then and HD-DVD DRM was the first to get hacked and when it did it was a big deal. And back then there were no region free Bluray players either. So piracy concerns were relevant given there were two roads for studios to choose from and one would net them less cash than the other.
 
On reason why Blu-Rays says are not taking off as quickly as DVD sales did is because Blu-Ray vs DVD is not as noticeable as DVD vs VHS.
Does blu ray look better than DVD? yes it does.
Now it is not as big of a jump when comparing DVD to VHS.

For example on my 720p TV I play DVD on my 360 on it. Now i do no have any big sound system hook up and using only the TV built in speakers. That means DVD sound quickly already exceeds what my TV is capable of doing. So zero gain for going to BluRay in terms of sound.

As for picture yes blu ray would look better but I sit about 7-8ft from my 32in TV when watching movies so the extra bluRay would offer would be marginal.

So those reason about are preventing me from forking out the 200+ for a bluRay player. I am willing to bet the replacement of the 360 will have a built in BluRay player in it and chances are I will upgrade then.

BluRay is going to take off as more and more people have 1080p TV as their main TV. They will really gain from it. My GF got a bluRay player because it offered netflex streaming and she got a 1080p TV. She needed a DVD player any how so the little extra cost for the BluRay DVD player made it worth it.

now she will only buy bluRay for her DVDs now because she can take advantage of it. It just takes a while for people to replace get bluray players
 
People keep mentioning viewing distances with Blu-Ray, I've gotta say that isn't the whole story as far as image quality goes.

When I switched to Blu-Ray, the first thing I noticed was the difference in the colours. The first film I saw on Blu-Ray was the original Tim Burton Batman film. I put the DVD in and I thought it was a fairly colourful film, with Nicholson's purple jacket. Then I switched to Blu-Ray and it was a whole new world. Everything was just so much more vivid and brighter. Now, DVDs almost look black and white to me.

Your viewing distance might diminish some of the benefits of a high resolution, such as the ability to see individual nostril hairs. But no matter how far away you sit, the colours should still be noticeable. I mean, look at the difference in the water and sand in this image http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/bdreviews/graphics/drnocomp2.jpg
 
On reason why Blu-Rays says are not taking off as quickly as DVD sales did is because Blu-Ray vs DVD is not as noticeable as DVD vs VHS.

There have been many posts here pointing to studies that say that BD is in fact being taken up more quickly than DVD was at this stage in its life. (Report: Blu-ray Adoption Ahead of DVD’s)

Perhaps if you're watching it on an an older SD television

television.jpg
(click to enlarge)

you'd think that the difference is "not as noticeable".

But, for the rapidly increasing ranks of people buying larger "True HD 1080p" televisions

monster_picture_from_sharp.jpg


the difference is very noticeable.]

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On reason why Blu-Rays says are not taking off as quickly as DVD sales did is because Blu-Ray vs DVD is not as noticeable as DVD vs VHS.
Although bd has been adopted faster than dvd, that might be more because of people been used to get new tech every year (like computers, cell phones) and their relative price beeing lower than 30 years ago.

When different generations of tech mix together, the difference isn't so apparent.
Eg. if you compare the picture from best svhs-vcr and first cheap dvd-player on a good 32" or 36" crt, there aren't big difference.
Vhs had about 30 years lifespan and dvd might have almost the same.
Late 70's when vhs came, average screen size was 22".
Late 90's when dvd came, average screen size was 28"
Now average screen size is probably 40" and 2015 it could be 50".

If you compare bd quality with dvd-era screen, it will hide most of the difference. But in 2015, if you connect sd-era dvd with analog signal and no upconversion to the latest and greatest 60" oled xvYCC-gamut screen, the difference to bd will be huge.
 
On reason why Blu-Rays says are not taking off as quickly as DVD sales did is because Blu-Ray vs DVD is not as noticeable as DVD vs VHS.

That's wrong, because Blu-Ray is outpacing DVD's growth at the same point in its life.

Does blu ray look better than DVD? yes it does.
Now it is not as big of a jump when comparing DVD to VHS.

You say in your next sentence you are watching on a 720p (1280x720) TV and you're missing more than half the resolution Blu-Ray can give you (1920x1080). You're missing more than 1/2 the pixels (900,000 vs 2,100,000)

For example on my 720p TV I play DVD on my 360 on it. Now i do no have any big sound system hook up and using only the TV built in speakers. That means DVD sound quickly already exceeds what my TV is capable of doing. So zero gain for going to BluRay in terms of sound.

That is also not true. Yes, you are not experiencing surround sound which is a big part of the experience, I encourage you to get a surround setup and your movie experience will be transformed.

However, you are wrong that Blu-Ray won't improve your experience. Blu-Ray offers lossless sound and while DVD *can* offer PCM 2 channel sound it often doesn't -- you often get low-bitrate AC-3, which is lossy and akin to MP3s versus something lossless such as FLAC or ALAC. I've seen DVDs offer PCM but it's usually music/concerts, I don't think I've ever seen a movie with a PCM soundtrack.

As for picture yes blu ray would look better but I sit about 7-8ft from my 32in TV when watching movies so the extra bluRay would offer would be marginal.

You have a 720p set and you are speculating about something you don't have.

So those reason about are preventing me from forking out the 200+ for a bluRay player.

How about $45?

http://www.amazon.com/Insignia-NS-2...f=sr_1_23?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1282915865&sr=1-23

I am willing to bet the replacement of the 360 will have a built in BluRay player in it and chances are I will upgrade then.

Doubt it, as the 360 slim just came out and didn't come with a built-in Blu-Ray player nor did they ever attempt to build in the external HD-DVD drive in the 360's lifespan.
 
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Eg. if you compare the picture from best svhs-vcr and first cheap dvd-player on a good 32" or 36" crt, there aren't big difference.
I should have continued:
But if you compare crappy worn-out vhs tape connected via composite to 50" screen with uprezzing dvd connected via hdmi, there is of course a big difference.
One of the biggest is that vhs probably has wrong aspect ratio or picture is cropped, so you loose half of the already inferior vhs information already.
 
One of the biggest is that vhs probably has wrong aspect ratio or picture is cropped

So is any 4:3 DVDs, or 2.35:1 DVDs. Actually, while 16:9 TVs are the norm, there isn't much 16:9 content out there. People need to understand there's nothing wrong with Black bars. I'm tired of seeing stretched out or squished pictures in public TVs. :mad:
 
That's wrong, because Blu-Ray is outpacing DVD's growth at the same point in its life.

I'd not necessarily go as far as making this appear to be so black & white, since product development lifecycles and adoption rates have generally shortened, and as such, its probably appropriate to consider some degree of data normalization before drawing some comparative conclusion. If nothing else, one should consider doing a relative cost/income assessment that includes the Consumer Price Index (CPI), since a $200 BR player today is a lot less in constant dollars than a $200 VHS player or $200 DVD player from their respective historical periods.

You say in your next sentence you are watching on a 720p (1280x720) TV and you're missing more than half the resolution Blu-Ray can give you (1920x1080). You're missing more than 1/2 the pixels (900,000 vs 2,100,000)

This sort of comparison comes up quite a bit in digital photography. Simply put, a 2:1 increase in pixel count does not result in a doubling of resolution: to get a true doubling, it is a ratio of the squares (4:1) because the image has two dimensions (vertical & horizontal). As such, a (0.9MP:2.1MP) ratio only represents a 53% improvement, not a 100%+ one. True, its still not something to turn down, but the point is that the improvement isn't necessarily as dramatic as is being suggested: if you want to literally double the resolution , DVD's ~1MP requires roughly 4MP, and BR's ~2MP wouldn't be doubled until you get to over 8MP.


That is also not true. Yes, you are not experiencing surround sound which is a big part of the experience, I encourage you to get a surround setup and your movie experience will be transformed.

For what Rodimus said, it is true: his current setup isn't capable of exploiting either improvement in sound level.

However, you are wrong that Blu-Ray won't improve your experience.

Again, BR can improve his experience, but because it cannot do so until more of his current hardware is replaced, you're not addressing his "Here, Now" personal reality.

What both of these are actually hitting on is that the real world consumer's electronics rack isn't necessarily all 100% ready to go for BR from the perspective of being able to immediately see/hear all of BR's improvements.

This is in no small part because the technology implimentation was modular (TV, Speakers, Player unit, etc), which allows smaller (and smaller $ chunks) incremental improvements over time, but which also acts as a double-edged sword:

On the plus side, a previously purchased incremental improvement will be on hand to immediately exploit its contribution to an upgrade to BR.

On the minus side, this same modular nature permits a consumer to potentially "Never" upgrade every single last item. As such, we can have implimentations where BR is only able to reach 80% of its potential and not anything more, because that last 20% depends on upgrading a subsystem that's been (for whatever reason) not upgraded.

FWIW, the alternative to this is an all-in-one system, but this has its own downside in that since it isn't modular, it is effectively less affordable, since it requires one big chunk of money rather than 3-4 smaller ones. In general, this will delay technology adoption.


Whereas the first DVD Player that I bought ten years ago (1999) would by comparison cost $318 in today's dollars ... as such, should there be any huge surprise that the respective adoption curves are so significantly different?


-hh
 
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Whereas the first DVD Player that I bought ten years ago (1999) would by comparison cost $318 in today's dollars ... as such, should there be any huge surprise that the respective adoption curves are so significantly different?

Your data is flawed. DVD saw the light of day as a product in 1997 for the US market. Your 1999 DVD player for 318$ was a 2 year old product. Blu-ray saw the light of day in 2006 in the US. This makes the 45$ player linked to you a 4 year old product.

As such, you'd need to compare prices on DVD players in 2001, not 1999.
 
Is the link wrong? All I see are used players for under $50. How can that be in this discussion? The cheapest I have seen a BDp for a so-called "regular" price is $99. Still cheaper than DVD was, when adjusted.

Also, there are hidden price benefits. Cheap DVD players were and are cheap. Even the $99 BD players have much better electronics. My DVDp was MSRP $1000 (maybe 2003) and is one of the best ever made for audio quality and video quality. My $200 BDp can almost match it when playing DVDs, it's really indistinguishable when actually watching a movie, although when pixel-peeping I prefer the DVDp.

So those reason about are preventing me from forking out the 200+ for a bluRay player. I am willing to bet the replacement of the 360 will have a built in BluRay player in it and chances are I will upgrade then.
I'd take that bet. I'd be willing to bet the 360 will NEVER have BD compatibility.

Audio is one of the most amazing things about quality discs. If you really want to take advantage of movies, an audio system is a good buy.
 
Your data is flawed. DVD saw the light of day as a product in 1997 for the US market. Your 1999 DVD player for 318$ was a 2 year old product. Blu-ray saw the light of day in 2006 in the US. This makes the 45$ player linked to you a 4 year old product.

As such, you'd need to compare prices on DVD players in 2001, not 1999.

I see what you're saying, but I think we're misaligned on a couple of key points.

First, my then-$250 DVD player (equivalent cost today: $318) [EDIT: correction added] was yes, two years after DVD intro, but the key point was that this was at the approximate transition point out of the Early Adopter phase, so it was also a new product intended for the 'Early Mainstream' adopter. Its main attribute was that it was significantly lower in price than the 'Early Adopter' DVD players.

Next, there's a huge question on what 'birth date' is appropriate to use for BR, due to the formats wars between BR and HD-DVD which had the effect of a very protracted period of freezing out mainstream adoptions.

Any date that anyone suggests is going to receive criticism because of this, but it is worth pointing out that if we choose to use the 2008 surrender of HD-DVD (since that's the milestone which allowed non-early-adopter consumers to stop sitting on the sideline), then BD isn't really all that old and the date of my DVD player is fairly coincident chronologically with someone buying BR this year.

Finally, the suggested $45 BR player doesn't necessarily have to be a real product; the question really is more of what is a fair & representative price for a BR player today. Using Amazon and choosing Sony (same brand as my DVD player...trying to minimize variables), we find a healthy choice of BR players in the $200 range ... as such, versus my suggested notionally reasonably comparable $318 present value benchmark, BR has a price point advantage.

Granted, this is all off-the-cuff. At the very least, I'd need to go find my old DVD receipt to find the exact date & price ... but we're still going to have a difficult struggle with BR's startpoint, due to the format war, which the DVD was fortunate enough to have had historically escaped - - and we're also not going to be able to escape a decade of CPI cost adjustments.


-hh
 
Wow, you're more predictable than a linear algebraic pattern.

Jobs, Apple and I obviously mean more than nothing to you, and how on earth is trolling these forums tying up lose ends, if nothing else they create more lose ends.

NO COMMENT

:apple:
 
For what Rodimus said, it is true: his current setup isn't capable of exploiting either improvement in sound level.

I'd like to reiterate, that isn't true. (Since we can't quote more than one level, the issue is Blu-Ray offering no improvement in sound quality over a TV's built-in speakers with no surround system).

The sound you are likely to get from a DVD is 99.9% 192kbps or lower AC3, which is lossy like MP3. Blu-Ray offers lossless high-res sound (from PCM, DTS HD-MA, and Dolby True HD). So even in that case, Blu-Ray would offer you lossless 48-24 sound even over TV speakers. And the format is capable of 192-24 sound (you won't get this on movies because they are mastered at 48-24 theatrically, but for example I have a Tom Petty Blu-Ray that's 96-24).

In fact, for the person with a DVD & surround system, DVD is already capable of 7.1 sound, so Blu-Ray's improvements are not in the number of channels but rather in the quality of the sound -- because of several lossless algorithms, 24-bit depth, sampling rates up to 192kHz, and bitrates that exceed the video bitrate of most DVDs). Regardless of how many channels are involved, 2 or 8. (*there's technical wiggle room in the discreteness or non-discreetness of the additional channels above 5.1 in 6.1/7.1 DVDs)

I see what you're saying, but I think we're misaligned on a couple of key points.

First, my then-$250 DVD player (equivalent cost today: $318) [EDIT: correction added] was yes, two years after DVD intro, but the key point was that this was at the approximate transition point out of the Early Adopter phase, so it was also a new product intended for the 'Early Mainstream' adopter. Its main attribute was that it was significantly lower in price than the 'Early Adopter' DVD players.

I think in the case of both products, the availability of players at the $100 price point is the moment of triumph. For DVD this happened around 2000-2001 with the Apex player for $99. For Blu-Ray this happened in 2009 with several players (Apex, Insignia, etc.) close enough to $100 that it makes no difference.

In both cases that's 4 years after launch. The two are following very parallel courses.

Blu-Ray is benefitting from the ground that DVD paved. Blu-Ray is, after all, only a better version of DVD not a paradigm shift as DVD was. However, that is tempered by the slow economy and lessened need for HD when DVD is "good enough". The fact that Blu-Ray is coming out ahead of the game is quite noteworthy.

Next, there's a huge question on what 'birth date' is appropriate to use for BR, due to the formats wars between BR and HD-DVD which had the effect of a very protracted period of freezing out mainstream adoptions.

Yet we forget that DVD also faced a format war with DIVX for several years (the original, Circuit City backed pay-per-viewing-period hijacking of DVD, not the sarcastically-named codec DivX;-)). There were several studios (Disney, Paramount, and Fox) that supported DIVX and not DVD. Back in those days, studios lined up behind one format or the other. Just as they did with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Back in those days, one couldn't buy a Disney, Paramount, or Fox movie on DVD.

images

images

images

viewover.gif
rental.gif


Here's a TV commercial.

In both cases (DVD dispatching of Divx, and Blu-Ray dispatching of HD-DVD), it took roughly 3 years and the end of the format war saw an explosion in mainstream acceptance.

Also, DVD's launch in 1997 was only in a select few cities like New York and Los Angeles. It didn't go nationwide for another 6 months.
 
Your data is flawed. DVD saw the light of day as a product in 1997 for the US market. Your 1999 DVD player for 318$ was a 2 year old product. Blu-ray saw the light of day in 2006 in the US. This makes the 45$ player linked to you a 4 year old product.

As such, you'd need to compare prices on DVD players in 2001, not 1999.

You're absolutely right. I think the first DVD players were somewhere around $450-600. I was thrilled to score an RCA DVD player for $300, probably refurbished, around spring of 1998. Then came the Panasonic A110, which was the gotta-have player, and I think that was around $379.

On launch, the PS3 was arguably the best Blu-Ray player, and I think it was also the cheapest for quite a while with $299 and $399 versions. I think the early Blu-Ray players that preceeded the ps3 were somewhere around $599.

As for 2001 DVD prices, my memory's a little fuzzy but that may be right around the time the Chinese and specifically Apex got involved, they made a big splash with a $99 player with easily-hackable firmware for region-free playback, PAL->NTSC conversion, etc.
 
Why?......Couldn't they make it customizable, so when you buy you're mac you can choose between having a blu ray drive and not?
 
I'd take that bet. I'd be willing to bet the 360 will NEVER have BD compatibility.

Audio is one of the most amazing things about quality discs. If you really want to take advantage of movies, an audio system is a good buy.


This is the 2nd post some one made who miss understood what I was talking about when I said 360 replacement. I was talking about next gen like Xbox 720.
I never exact the 360 to get bluRay unless it is some add on and even that is unlikely but the Xbox 720 or what ever it is called I fully expect to have bluRay built into it.

Just figure I would clear that I up. I have no intention of replacing my 360 with another 360.

You're absolutely right. I think the first DVD players were somewhere around $450-600. I was thrilled to score an RCA DVD player for $300, probably refurbished, around spring of 1998. Then came the Panasonic A110, which was the gotta-have player, and I think that was around $379.

On launch, the PS3 was arguably the best Blu-Ray player, and I think it was also the cheapest for quite a while with $299 and $399 versions. I think the early Blu-Ray players that preceeded the ps3 were somewhere around $599.

As for 2001 DVD prices, my memory's a little fuzzy but that may be right around the time the Chinese and specifically Apex got involved, they made a big splash with a $99 player with easily-hackable firmware for region-free playback, PAL->NTSC conversion, etc.

Help you out a little in 2001 I got my hands on a cheap DVD player for 20-30 bucks. It worked great until it was stolen a few years later.
 
On launch, the PS3 was arguably the best Blu-Ray player, and I think it was also the cheapest for quite a while with $299 and $399 versions. I think the early Blu-Ray players that preceeded the ps3 were somewhere around $599.

Let's not forget that the PS2 did the same for DVD. For a while it was the cheapest player around.
 
Is it going to be xbox 720 because that's another full spin? Instead of xbox 540, which is like a half spin--meaning like xbox 1.5? Am I making any sense?
 
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