Steve Jobs Suggests Blu-ray Not Coming to Mac Anytime Soon

[PeterQVenkman]

IMO, there's two main costs involved. There's the tangible direct costs of making the changes to OS X's code & maintaining it, which is easy. But there's also the less tangible indirect costs of what I'll simplistically call "Control", which is hard. Simply put, the latter requires ceding to some of the DRM requirements, which places constraints on Apple's current & future freedom of OS evolution & features...and trying to figure out how to place a discrete, tangible cash value on this. That's why it isn't easy.

Can it really be that difficult? Apple ceded certain things to the license holders of DVD back in the day and they worked it out fine. I also thought mini-display port and hdmi on all the macs supports the DRM that Blu-Ray requires.

I am unfamiliar with the code, but I don't see why Apple would have to fork development of OSX to display a video. Just wrap it up in the Blu-Ray player.

Apple makes customers pay for MPE2 compression software separately. One either gets it bundled with an Apple product like FCS, or buys the codec from Apple as a $20 purchase.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/D2187Z/A

I think Apple could do this with very little hassle, and charge the people who want it a fee they would gladly pay.

 

[janstett]

Can somebody summarize this thread? Please?

You already got an <incomplete> answer, I'll give you a better summary.

The inexplicable lack of Blu-Ray is yet another bullet point illustrating that the Macintosh is languishing and Apple is becoming an iToy company.

And it's especially sad given the Mac's importance in the content creation and consumption communities.

I haven't priced shop TV boxed sets in a looooong time but that sounds kind of high. I definitely have no interest in BD versions of TV shows and not iTunes either for that price. For now, I will stick with Hulu unless there is something I can't watch on Hulu -which has not happened yet. Then again I don't watch much TV.

I generally agree but when a TV show is good, the Blu-Ray version shines very brightly.

The last TV set I bought was the entire series boxset of Battlestar Galactica.

I didn't watch the series from day one, so when I came on board I downloaded craptastic SD TV rips. Liked it so much I bought the DVDs for a season or two. Then because I didn't have Sci-Fi HD I'd download 720p rips from the internet. Finally my cable network picked up Sci-Fi HD and I watched HD on first airing. I think I caught a few I missed on Hulu or scifi.com. So I've seen it pretty much every way you can see it.

Then I got the Blu-Ray box set when the series was wrapped up. It DESTROYS every other viewing option. It's far better than the next best thing which is HDTV broadcast. Obliterates it. Incredible visual quality and 7.1 lossless audio.

HDTV is only MPEG-2, lossy DD 5.1, and limited to 10-20 megabits if you're lucky. Very often it's lower bandwidth and filled with artifacts. Blu-Ray uses a newer codec (H.264) and routinely doubles that bitrate, 40-50 megabits is not uncommon.

Even producer Ron Moore says in the introduction, he is flabbergasted by the quality; the people working on the show didn't get to see it look this good.

 

[Mal]

That's a nice sounding argument until you consider any of the many BTO options on the Apple Store when you buy a mac. They only need to charge extra to people who actively want the option. You can go on the Apple Store right now and add thousands of *insert your currency here* on almost all the computers Apple sells.

configuring a 27 inch iMac...

Add an apple remote? $19 please. Oops! 'Apple Tax' for something optional that used to be included free! Maybe you should e-mail them about that.

Faster processor, magic trackpad, more RAM, more HD space, pre-installed software... all add to the price. All optional.

This isn't a matter of just having to pay for the drive hardware. There are license fees to be paid that will be levied on all Apple computers, simply because the software support will be included (because by design, the software must support it at a very low level, and thus every computer they sell, with or without a BD drive, will be assessed a license fee). Thus, even just making it possible will require a non-trivial license fee, in addition to the man-hours required to make it happen. Other issues have also been mentioned here already, in addition to the financial concerns.

jW

 

[janstett]

On the other hand, does Apple not know how to program the OS to allow BD playback? Did they just never bother to even try to write such code? Did they try and fail to make it work right, and abandon it?

A while ago I asked who wrote DVDPlayer.app; I doubt it was Apple and it was probably a 3rd party. Apple didn't support DVD playback for quite a while. Any OSX historians here?

I'd place my bet that the reason is purely iTunes. Jobs is the largest Disney shareholder, and Disney is ecstatic about Blu-Ray. We all know how intimate Jobs is with Pixar, and Pixar loves Blu-Ray.

The bottom line is that now, since iTunes really, Apple is in the business of providing content, and any sources of content outside of the magic Jobs-approved revenue generation path are to be shunned.

 

[Eidorian]

A while ago I asked who wrote DVDPlayer.app; I doubt it was Apple and it was probably a 3rd party. Apple didn't support DVD playback for quite a while. Any OSX historians here?

I'd place my bet that the reason is purely iTunes. Jobs is the largest Disney shareholder, and Disney is ecstatic about Blu-Ray. We all know how intimate Jobs is with Pixar, and Pixar loves Blu-Ray.

The bottom line is that now, since iTunes really, Apple is in the business of providing content, and any sources of content outside of the magic Jobs-approved revenue generation path are to be shunned.

DVD Player came in 10.1.

 

[janstett]

DVD Player came in 10.1.

Thanks.

That was Puma, which came out in late 2001. Four years after DVD came out.

 

[OllyW]

This isn't a matter of just having to pay for the drive hardware. There are license fees to be paid that will be levied on all Apple computers, simply because the software support will be included (because by design, the software must support it at a very low level, and thus every computer they sell, with or without a BD drive, will be assessed a license fee). Thus, even just making it possible will require a non-trivial license fee, in addition to the man-hours required to make it happen. Other issues have also been mentioned here already, in addition to the financial concerns.

jW

It was already mentioned that they could charge a separate fee for BD playback like Apple already do for the MPEG-2 Playback Component.

Apple makes customers pay for MPE2 compression software separately. One either gets it bundled with an Apple product like FCS, or buys the codec from Apple as a $20 purchase.

 

[gkarris]

You already got an <incomplete> answer, I'll give you a better summary.

The inexplicable lack of Blu-Ray is yet another bullet point illustrating that the Macintosh is languishing and Apple is becoming an iToy company.

And it's especially sad given the Mac's importance in the content creation and consumption communities.



I generally agree but when a TV show is good, the Blu-Ray version shines very brightly.

The last TV set I bought was the entire series boxset of Battlestar Galactica.

I didn't watch the series from day one, so when I came on board I downloaded craptastic SD TV rips. Liked it so much I bought the DVDs for a season or two. Then because I didn't have Sci-Fi HD I'd download 720p rips from the internet. Finally my cable network picked up Sci-Fi HD and I watched HD on first airing. I think I caught a few I missed on Hulu or scifi.com. So I've seen it pretty much every way you can see it.

Then I got the Blu-Ray box set when the series was wrapped up. It DESTROYS every other viewing option. It's far better than the next best thing which is HDTV broadcast. Obliterates it. Incredible visual quality and 7.1 lossless audio.

HDTV is only MPEG-2, lossy DD 5.1, and limited to 10-20 megabits if you're lucky. Very often it's lower bandwidth and filled with artifacts. Blu-Ray uses a newer codec (H.264) and routinely doubles that bitrate, 40-50 megabits is not uncommon.

Even producer Ron Moore says in the introduction, he is flabbergasted by the quality; the people working on the show didn't get to see it look this good.

Well put.

My last purchase was 24 Season 8, the BR was on sale for $35, cheaper than the 720p download from iTunes...

I rented "Stargate: The Ark of Truth" on iTunes in HD when you could only get it on DVD. Then, at fans requests, the BR came out - much, much better.

Years ago, people said you needed the system to be able to tell the difference. But now with BR players so cheap and the discs going for low prices - why not go with the BR?

 

[Porco]

It was already mentioned that they could charge a separate fee for BD playback like Apple already do for the MPEG-2 Playback Component.

Yep, I mentioned it a while back too I think, in the mists of this epic thread. lol.

Admittedly this is speculation, but I find it difficult to believe Apple don't already have the necessary OS-level software support at least half-written in case they decide to use it. This is the company that ran development on OS X for intel chips for years just in case the PPC chips didn't work out.

 

[LethalWolfe]

This isn't a matter of just having to pay for the drive hardware. There are license fees to be paid that will be levied on all Apple computers, simply because the software support will be included (because by design, the software must support it at a very low level, and thus every computer they sell, with or without a BD drive, will be assessed a license fee). Thus, even just making it possible will require a non-trivial license fee, in addition to the man-hours required to make it happen. Other issues have also been mentioned here already, in addition to the financial concerns.

jW

You and PeterQVenkman were probably typing at the same time, but like he said, if you want the MPEG-2 component for QT you have to pay for it (either as a stand alone purchase or by purchasing one of the ProApps). So how would BD be significantly different? Apple does the R&D for their RAID and Fibre Channel cards as BTO options. How would BD be significantly different? Especially since I'm sure a BD BTO option would be much added much more often than RAID or Fibre. There are also other companies providing solutions, and people are buying them, so I don't buy the 'cost prohibitive' argument when Apple is basically a money printing press right now with a mountain full cash in the bank.

When DVD SP 4 first came out in '05 Apple trumpeted it as the first commercially available software to author High Def DVDs even though, at the time, the discs would only work on certain Macs and yet-to-be released Toshiba HD-DVD players. Apple went from the forefront to the back of the bus and the only significant thing that changed, IMO, is that Apple got heavily invested into online media distribution which means BD is now a competing technology. There is a demand for it from both professionals and consumers but I think Apple is hoping they can keep putting it off and putting it off and hope that people will just get tired of asking for it and eventually settle for the alternatives Apple is offering.


Lethal

 

[-hh]

Can it really be that difficult?

Difficult...at what level?

Apple ceded certain things to the license holders of DVD back in the day and they worked it out fine.

We (the customer) aren't aware of any problems .. but that doesn't constitute proof positive that there weren't and haven't been any ("Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence")

I also thought mini-display port and hdmi on all the macs supports the DRM that Blu-Ray requires.

Yes, and the hardware is all there - - which has been confirmed by people being able to run BD on a Mac while it is running Windows OS.

I am unfamiliar with the code, but I don't see why Apple would have to fork development of OSX to display a video. Just wrap it up in the Blu-Ray player.

The problem's not with a Player. It is that the OS that the Player operates within (OS X) isn't currently configured to meet the DRM protection requirements.

The level of work goes deep down into OS, so as to DRM-protect the stream end-to-end, from source to display, and with all opportunities to fork or divert the stream to be completely locked out.

While even this may not necessarily be technically "hard", the broader question is what opportunities for new/different product innovations have been lost because of the conformance to this DRM management scheme? The answer to this question is like trying to quantify how much a future child is worth to you before they're born.

OTOH, if this is an exaggeration and the work is really quite easy and trivial, then the question becomes why hasn't some 3rd Party developer already have filled this product gap years ago?

I think Apple could do this with very little hassle, and charge the people who want it a fee they would gladly pay.

Ultimately it comes down to the question of how much the customers are willing to pay.

While I did suggest a figurative $1999 'upgrade' price, what's the price that posters really (no-kidding) are willing to pay for adding BD to their Mac?

If someone's looking for a survey question, its a decent one to ask, plus it has a better chance IMO of attracting Apple's attention to BD than this big old thread.



-hh

 

[Porco]

While I did suggest a figurative $1999 'upgrade' price, what's the price that posters really (no-kidding) are willing to pay for adding BD to their Mac?

You can buy good standalone BD players for under $200. If they can manage it, Apple could certainly manage it for somewhere in that ballpark.

 

[iEdd]

While I did suggest a figurative $1999 'upgrade' price, what's the price that posters really (no-kidding) are willing to pay for adding BD to their Mac?

Free would be reasonable. $99AU would be OK. I'd probably even stretch to $199AU.

The lack of Blu-ray sticks out like a sore thumb. It would be akin to someone in 2000 putting a state of the art 5.1 home theatre system and running VHS tapes.

If iMacs were $500 computers, like the typical PC shelveware crap, then having DVD drives would be acceptable. Premium computers should have premium features, and a current-technology optical drive is hardly a big ask. In fact, other than form factor, we haven't seen any brilliant hardware innovations on Macs for years. Why? Because everyone wants a Verizon iPhone or an iPad with a camera on the back of it for facebook mugshots.

 

[pr5owner]

You can buy good standalone BD players for under $200. If they can manage it, Apple could certainly manage it for somewhere in that ballpark.

try under $100

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olstemp...9&list=y&nrp=15&usc=abcat0100000&sc=TVVideoSP

also you can buy a BD ROM for a computer under $50 (oops i mean a PC)

 

[Porco]

try under $100

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olstemp...9&list=y&nrp=15&usc=abcat0100000&sc=TVVideoSP

also you can buy a BD ROM for a computer under $50 (oops i mean a PC)

under $100 is also under $200 But yes, I was being generous to Apple to allow for all the... bag of hurt ... or whatever.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Difficult...at what level?

While I did suggest a figurative $1999 'upgrade' price, what's the price that posters really (no-kidding) are willing to pay for adding BD to their Mac?

If someone's looking for a survey question, its a decent one to ask, plus it has a better chance IMO of attracting Apple's attention to BD than this big old thread.

$700-800 laptops have Blu-ray drives so I think $100 would be profitable for Apple but Apple being Apple they'll make it $200.


Lethal

 

[wonderspark]

For me, it's worth buying / building a PC instead of a Mac for my next upgrade, or at the very least, buying a PC laptop instead of a Mac laptop, as I'm in the market for a laptop right now. The cost to Apple is much more than just some dollars... it's moving to another brand.

Otherwise, I'd say $100 is the most I'll part with for something that should have been included in the magic of Mac.

It's not like people are demanding they spend their $50BN cash reserves to make a few people happy, here.

 

[Nermal]

Thanks.

That was Puma, which came out in late 2001. Four years after DVD came out.

OS 9 had DVD playback support too. Remember that OS X was a complete "rewrite" so some features didn't reappear for a while.

 

[435713]

For me, it's worth buying / building a PC instead of a Mac for my next upgrade, or at the very least, buying a PC laptop instead of a Mac laptop, as I'm in the market for a laptop right now. The cost to Apple is much more than just some dollars... it's moving to another brand.

Otherwise, I'd say $100 is the most I'll part with for something that should have been included in the magic of Mac.

It's not like people are demanding they spend their $50BN cash reserves to make a few people happy, here.

I was thinking building one as well. Probably would keep a Mac Laptop (least expensive) around for some things. I think Apple has lost track of what I bolded in your post. All about sucking off investors and not customers. Although I will say their customer service hands down is better than any other manufacturer. Thing is investors are not loyal, they jump ship at the first sign of trouble.

Customers invest large sums into software and peripherals etc... and they will be loyal if you treat them right on making them feel they will always get cutting edge product (spec wise) for a good price. A little mark-up is fine, right now its pretty bad mostly because of the refresh taking a year and they don't drop prices ever.

I sure as hell would keep the pro users happy, the market of casual users they go after are very fickle. Any tablet is way too much IMO for what it does. 300 is the most I would pay for one of those. Maybe 400... if it had a lot of functionality.

It just never will make sense to me, say they did sell a larger laptop with all the bells and whistles; they would make money and a lot of it considering it was priced well. Same thing if they did a Mac tower, but of course they want to be cheap. Nazi like on their choice selection. I mean is it that hard to have a diverse lineup like a Sony, Dell, HP???

 

[xbjllb]

Pop! Pop! Pop!

Only because then Macs are soon to be extinct, and justifiably so.

In their place; a fad toy phonemaker on its last legs, competing against easily bettered and far cheaper product. Shortly after the bubble in their bottom line pops.

And pop it will.

"I've seen it before, and I'll see it again... history just keeps repeating itself."

POP!

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/02/10/snapshot-of-an-apple-flash-crash/

And that's just the start of it too.

 

[charlituna]

It's just as easy for me to tell you that you're a whiner, and that you need to get over the fact that others want to keep discussing it.

That would be great if folks were really discussing it. However what is actually happening is pages and pages of folks posting some variant of "I want there to be Blu-ray in Macs and Apple is being run by total morons which is why they won't do it. ANd if they don't in the very next models of everything it means the company doesn't give a **** about computers and they will go bankrupt for their stupidity. Everyone else has blu-ray in their machines and it can't possibly cost THAT much" and so on.

And pretty much anyone that disagrees and states that it's not really that big of a deal is called a moron, a troll, told to shut up and go away etc.

Hardly a 'discussion' now is it.

 

[QuarterSwede]

That would be great if folks were really discussing it. However what is actually happening is pages and pages of folks posting some variant of "I want there to be Blu-ray in Macs and Apple is being run by total morons which is why they won't do it. ANd if they don't in the very next models of everything it means the company doesn't give a **** about computers and they will go bankrupt for their stupidity. Everyone else has blu-ray in their machines and it can't possibly cost THAT much" and so on.

And pretty much anyone that disagrees and states that it's not really that big of a deal is called a moron, a troll, told to shut up and go away etc.

Hardly a 'discussion' now is it.

Honestly, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. Almost 5000 posts on BluRay. Really!?

 

[iEdd]

Harder to believe than 5000 posts about the Verizon iPhone?

 

[QuarterSwede]

Harder to believe than 5000 posts about the Verizon iPhone?

Easily. It's not really the number of posts but the longevity, it's been over 7 months since it was started. I'm seriously tired of seeing it keep popping up in the Forum Spy.

 

[neko girl]

Apologize if this has been posted before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlm1G8x6eGE

Steve Jobs stop motion animation from Robot Chicken killing Compact Disc Man and Zune Man.

Thought it was appropriate.