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So we're approaching 5000 posts (I'm happy being post #4974… good luck to no.5000!)

To sum up:

-Some of us would really quite like Apple to give us (ok, sell us) the option for Blu-ray movie playback in Mac OS X. This is for various reasons including, (sometimes overlapping reasons):

-- A desire for the best quality home movies available.
-- Being able to playback discs we bought for the big TV in the home theatre on our macs without needing an additional purchase of the same movie.
-- Because online movie rentals and purchases (whether streaming or downloading) are either not feasible due to the current state of internet connections, or not desirable because of the afore-mentioned desire to purchase movies in the best quality generally available.
-- Due to the complexity and legal ambiguity for the average home user of ripping DVDs, it would seem that disc-playing machines will be required for some years to come. Apple appear to be suggesting everyone should re-purchase their entire movie collection on iTunes (or at least as much of it as possible). Far better to support options for both the best physical media around and the emerging market for online video when it is appropriate for users.

The alternative mentioned most often is online delivery of video content. Whilst in ideal circumstances this does / would have many advantages over physical media it faces huge obstacles and offers consumers a number of new problems:

-- Choice and availability of movies can (and already has) come and go online. Whilst some studios can delete titles (Disney like to do this) in general once a title is released on a physical format it is around for years. This can happen arbitrarily and unexpectedly with online movies, which is bad for both availability and in terms of being able to keep prices high if there were no competition.
-- iTunes video features restrictive DRM that mean aside from Windows PCs (ironically, given their ability to play back BD movies) only Apple devices can play the video content from the iTunes store.
-- Even worse than disc-based format's regions codes, iTunes is restricted to nation-by-nation deals on movies, further restricting consumer freedom.

Furthermore, in a wider context away from simply the consumer experience the lack of BD playback on the mac means:

-- It's an advantage for Windows over Mac OS X.
-- It seems hypocritical, or at the very least a contradiction that Disney and Pixar release many high quality Blu-ray disc products, yet these will not play upon the OS Steve Jobs sells, only on the OS his rivals sell.
-- It also seems a contradiction that Apple are involved with the Blu-ray disc Association if they are fundamentally opposed to the format at this point.
-- Job's stated aim of Apple wanting to 'make its customers happy' is undermined without a strong logical reason why the option of Blu-ray would run counter to this stated aim.
-- The lack of BD on the mac means the Mac Mini is a dead-end as a home theatre computer. This in turn, paradoxically, means some may be less likely to go to Apple whenever online video becomes more feasible for more people.
-- It makes the mac look less serious for professional and creative use as well. Whatever you think of the format, it's very silly that one can create BDs from their own video content, but cannot play those discs back on the same machine. I hate the reductive and (I think overall…) disingenuous 'iToymaker' tags that suggest all Apple does is dumb 'toy' consumer electronics nowadays, but the BD situation doesn't make it easier to refute or rebut such claims.
-- With the assumption that the primary reason for the lack of BD playback support on OS X is merely to promote online video sales through iTunes, it re-enforces the perception of Apple as an over-controlling, micro-managing company who aren't happy just creating great products, but want to unfairly load the die / cut the cards / stack the odds in their favour by playing politics with people's choices, regardless of the detrimental effect. To put it another way, if their vision is so great, why not let it win fairly on an equal playing field? Allowing for ripping of CDs whilst selling music in iTunes has worked great for everyone (even the music labels who don't get how lucky they are), so why does Apple feel the need to be so controlling over video? If online video is so great already, customers will reject BD themselves. Trying to force it just frustrates users who care about what BD offers, and do nothing for users who already planned to download all their video anyway.

Jobs'/Apple's stated arguments appear to be that

-- Blu-ray is akin to a 'niche' audio format.
This is clearly ludicrous given easily researched sales figures and the rate of their growth over the last few years.

-- Online video is 'good enough' for most people.
One might argue Windows was always 'good enough' for most people, yet some prefer the perceived higher quality experience of Mac OS. Also, even if it is true that most people don't really care that much about the quality, why not concentrate on the promotion of more easily accessible standard definition video and leave HD to Blu-ray for now? And no-one has explained what would be so terrible about leaving the choice to the user. Jobs also seems to be more of a music fan than a movie fan. But some of us really love movies, do watch them numerous times, and do care about them on just as much of an emotional level as our music.

-- Licensing is a 'bag of hurt'.
This sounds like Apple saying 'it's too hard to bother' for what numerous other consumer electronics companies can achieve on low-priced products. Also licensing has become easier since the infamous quote, and can hardly be at a financial level so burdensome that it couldn't be simply passed on to the consumer (or else those sub-$100 BD players wouldn't be able to do it either).

If there are better technical reasons why Apple can't add the option for BD movie playback support, it seems odd they wouldn't simply put out a press release, or at very least pay the courtesy to those customers who would like BD on the mac and give an interview to the tech press on the issue or similar.

Apple have often made unpredictable U-turns on issues before. I just hope this will be one such time, because it's just silly that you can't easily play Blu-ray movies in OS X if you want to.
 
As Mal has pointed out, the "bag of hurt" is all about the licensing issues.
Licensing issues are an excuse.
For player software it's something like pennies for a copy.

I think this is about not making compromises.
At least not before making a compromise will benefit a huge amount of money.
Thinking about Steve's alleged recent comments about bd, they are propably not thinking just playing the movies, but also authoring and replicating.
Otherwise those comments make no sense.
So once again for Apple, it's all or nothing, they want to adopt all aspects of bd to their ecosystem or neglect it all.
Maybe this would include distributing their software and other content in bd or even building a bd replication factory for their own use.

If Apple wanted they could easily make 2 versions of OS, one with "secure video path" and the other without it, if they would think that they need to "secure" os's "3rd party constrain free" future.

Only thing I can come up in addition to protecting iTunes, is that Apple has something really genuine in place of optical drive.

New BDXL-hy-drives will be awesome!
Sad that you can't have one of those in mbp...
 
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I want to purchase an iMac for several years now .. in my home, I only own an iPod touch, A/V component and universal dock as Apple products

I use it to listen to music from my separated stereo system, just before I go to bed, and iPod has wonderful SQ when connected via the dock

I really want to go Mac, i'm tired of *****ty windows .. but I wont buy an iMac yet .. because for the price, I think I want a 27" iMac, which;

1. Has integrated Bluray drive, and playback support of course, BDRW is preferable, but BD-ROM isn't that bad either

2. Since OSX Lion is on the way (which they say it's inspired a lot from iOS), iMac should be touch screen, has accelerometer, can be rotated horizontally or vertically

iMac touch should also be compatible with certain stylus, in which has pressure sensitivity .. That way it can work like Wacom screen, because iMac is created for work and designs, right?

3. A wireless keyboard with numeric pad as standard issue .. i work a lot with number typing, it's a pain in the *** to have a keyboard without numeric pad .. Yes i can buy another keyboard .. but then it's not all in one, don't you think :(

4. 1 port of HDMI output and input .. i can output my Bluray playback through projector or bigger screen, or have an HDMI device connected to my precious 27" iMac .. our choice

Believe me Steve, if you can make that kind of iMac, M$ will be the one who has "bag of hurt" ... those feature will be considered worth the price tag for an iMac

Come on Steve, seriously what format do you watch when you watch a movie in your home theater? I believe it's not iTunes rent movies .. I bet they are BLURAY
 
1. Has integrated Bluray drive, and playback support of course, BDRW is preferable, but BD-ROM isn't that bad either

Have to disagree with this. The years and years of combo drives for DVD-ROM/CD-RW in Macs was a major PITA. I remember wanting an iBook G4, but at the time, only the top 14" model even had the option of a superdrive. It was $3000 total (12" was $1600).

I say we skip the combo drives this time around.

Edit: HDMI input on the 27" iMac would be great too (with audio). As it is, the DisplayPort input is pretty useless. Just to connect a PS3 you need a pricey adaptor, and even then it's only 720p, as for some reason it won't allow 1080p.
 
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Have to disagree with this. The years and years of combo drives for DVD-ROM/CD-RW in Macs was a major PITA. I remember wanting an iBook G4, but at the time, only the top 14" model even had the option of a superdrive. It was $3000 total (12" was $1600).

I say we skip the combo drives this time around.

Edit: HDMI input on the 27" iMac would be great too (with audio). As it is, the DisplayPort input is pretty useless. Just to connect a PS3 you need a pricey adaptor, and even then it's only 720p, as for some reason it won't allow 1080p.

You're right about combo drive most of times bring problems and unreliable.
But as a normal user, I never use my PS3 for DVD playback although we know they can .. But it's an option, whenever you have to play DVD (region locked though) on PS3, you can.

Same case with iMac, if only iMac has integrated Bluray drive, I'd never use it to burn/read DVD or even CD .. i'll buy another external DVD drive for that, I dont want to go back to AppleStore just to have my iMac optical drive replaced.
But whenever you're in dire need of playing a DVD, Bluray drive on the iMac can deliver

Sure i prefer BDRW drive rather than BD combo .. that will feel incomplete :)



Maybe DisplayPort doesn't have HDCP to play 1080p content .. that's why PS3 can only displayed on 720p
 
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1080p content need HDCP compliant display and cable to be played correctly. Since current iMac has no native bluray support, 1080p wont display on current iMac with OSX

And yet if you run pirated content, there's no problem.

- HDCP headaches occur when trying to play stuff legally
- HDCP doesn't prevent pirated content from playing
- HDCP doesn't prevent you from copying a Blu-ray disc in a Windows PC

Groan. That's the "bag of hurt" to me. I've even seen those HDCP remover boxes that some people buy just so they have the privilege of playing their purchased media on their home theatre.
:(
 
And yet if you run pirated content, there's no problem.

- HDCP headaches occur when trying to play stuff legally
- HDCP doesn't prevent pirated content from playing
- HDCP doesn't prevent you from copying a Blu-ray disc in a Windows PC

Groan. That's the "bag of hurt" to me. I've even seen those HDCP remover boxes that some people buy just so they have the privilege of playing their purchased media on their home theatre.
:(

Yes sometimes Apple just keep doing those unnecessary problems. My Apple Remote can only play simple operations (so simple it was inadequate) for iPod touch when it's docked

I thought the DIRECTIONAL buttons can actually direct my iPod playlist or select another album. Yet they can't .. and the MENU button doesn't mean anything other than pairing

Well .. i still love my iPod though, what can i say :(
 
More like my PS3 gets the Blu-ray.

Get well soon Steve!

So a $300 video game console is more powerful and full featured than a $3000 Macintosh?

Well, it does support HDMI, Blu-Ray, and mutlichannel audio, all things the Mac doesn't.

And yet if you run pirated content, there's no problem.

- HDCP headaches occur when trying to play stuff legally
- HDCP doesn't prevent pirated content from playing
- HDCP doesn't prevent you from copying a Blu-ray disc in a Windows PC

Groan. That's the "bag of hurt" to me. I've even seen those HDCP remover boxes that some people buy just so they have the privilege of playing their purchased media on their home theatre.
:(

It is a pain in the butt but hardware purchased somewhat recently should handle it correctly.

On the PC there is a popular app called "AnyDVD HD" which removes region coding and disk encryption (so you can back up to the hard disk). It also eliminates the need for HDCP compliant monitors -- the requirements were that analog (VGA) devices will work, digital devices with HDCP will work, but digital devices without HDCP are forbidden and output is downsampled to DVD quality.

I do find it amazing that the movie studios think people are going to capture unencrypted video output and not defeat the disc, which is what already happened. Really they should drop the HDCP requirements, you can already rip Blu-Rays and it's got nothing to do with defeating HDCP.
 
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I do find it amazing that the movie studios think people are going to capture unencrypted video output and not defeat the disc, which is what already happened. Really they should drop the HDCP requirements, you can already rip Blu-Rays and it's got nothing to do with defeating HDCP.

HDMI itself is a good example of a great protocol, ruined by DRM.
The bluray spec itself would have been much better if it dropped regions/mpeg2/etc support too - unfortunately the people that push these things seem to be totally clueless.
Disc protection has proved again to be nothing more than an annoyance. The best form of anti piracy still remains the size of the data itself, but even this is a pretty small issue.
I wish the production companies would only release decent quality blurays. It's incredibly irritating to have to research the quality of each purchase - I'm fed up of buying (often upgrading from dvd) releases that are poorly transferred and encoded. It's even more annoying to see the same film released again 'done better/properly' as another version.

Pirated content still remains the easiest, most convenient and 'best' way for the computer literate to consume media, will this ever change?

Oh, and to be a little on topic - apple are idiotic (from a customer's point of view) to not include bluray support. Hearing the arguments against from people on this forum and the excuses by apple themselves is even more annoying than the stuff I'm annoyed about above :)
 
regarding the "blu ray would require such low level breaking DRM programming in OS X": doesn't the new Apple TV have HDCP support/ DRm included ?

funny how it's not that much of a "bag of hurt" when it's about apple DRM ;)
 
Squeaky wheel gets the Blu-ray. They just have to outlive Jobs.

:apple:

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. The folks Jobs leaves behind are more likely to feel the same way and still focus on downloads.

Personally I see nothing wrong with it. Few folks need Blu-ray for data etc and the professionals among them have no issue with using an external. We do what the job requires.

As for personal consumption, what is really needed is a format that allows for blu-ray quality files without a massive overhead. And then get the studios on board with putting the same features into those 'iTunes Extras' sets so that the digital is the same as the physical and let the consumers decide what they want. I'd pay the same amount or very close to myself if the quality was the same. Sure it would be nice if the digital was a little cheaper but I'd probably spend the same cost in my time ripping it myself.
 
As for personal consumption, what is really needed is a format that allows for blu-ray quality files without a massive overhead.

That could work... Or if you wanted to make things simpler you could just stick a blu ray drive in there :p

Why go to the trouble of creating a format which is identical to blu ray, when you can just use blu ray?
 
Few folks need blu-ray for data etc and the professionals among them have no issue with using an external. We do what the job requires.

+1

I've been saying that all along and then I became labeled as a "BD hating sheep," even though I own two BD players and watch BD movies from Netflix.
 
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Few folks need Blu-ray for data etc and the professionals among them have no issue with using an external. We do what the job requires.

Even if it means switching away from the mac.


That could work... Or if you wanted to make things simpler you could just stick a blu ray drive in there :p

Why go to the trouble of creating a format which is identical to blu ray, when you can just use blu ray?

I believe the thinking is "why sell another's format, when we can sell our own and get a slice of every sale?"
 
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Few folks need Blu-ray for data etc and the professionals among them have no issue with using an external. We do what the job requires.
Using an external or internal BD drive is certainly not a problem. But having to buy and use that dreadful other OS you wouldn't touch with a stick IS A MAJOR ISSUE.
To keep face and their video customers, Apple should at least give away Win 7 with FCS for free!

If Apple doesn't improve BD support with the next FCS update, I'll be switching to Premiere or Avid Media Composer. The last FCS update was such a disappointment I started to look around. Avid always had all the bells and whistles and is not so expensive anymore. And Premiere has improved greatly. Heck, it even surpasses FCS in certain areas. And to author BD's with proper menus I would have to buy it anyway...

Since buying TWO editing suites seems insane, this can only mean: Goodbye Final Cut Studio.
I don't think Apple will be able to compete on the same professional level as Avid and Adobe for much longer and therefore got the bad feeling FCS4 could be the last revision.

Better leave that sinking ship now...
 
I wish the production companies would only release decent quality blurays. It's incredibly irritating to have to research the quality of each purchase - I'm fed up of buying (often upgrading from dvd) releases that are poorly transferred and encoded. It's even more annoying to see the same film released again 'done better/properly' as another version.

Well, first it is logical to include support for MPEG-2 which makes it easy to reuse an HDTV transfer; it also made it easy to get cable rips burned to disc.

What they didn't count on is that H.264 (and even VC-1) are much better encoders in terms of quality than MPEG-2.

Further, those days of poor releases are over, it was just early growing pains. Early adopters like you and I know about examples such as Fifth Element which were very poor encodes and were then re-released. But I'd really have to research (1) poor quality releases made in the last two years and (2) any MPEG-2 releases made in that same time period. I am always paranoid and check the audio and video codecs in PowerDVD and almost all titles are H.264/AVC with DTS HD-MA and once in a blue moon you get VC-1 or Dolby True HD or PCM. MPEG-2 I haven't seen in years aside from being used in the FBI warnings, etc.
 
No one's asking them to SELL Blu-ray, just allow us to play it on the Mac.

Nor was I.

Come on, make this leap with me: why would Apple sell a drive (even as an option) whose main (consumer) selling point is for Apple customers buy competing media?


Using an external or internal BD drive is certainly not a problem. But having to buy and use that dreadful other OS you wouldn't touch with a stick IS A MAJOR ISSUE.
To keep face and their video customers, Apple should at least give away Win 7 with FCS for free!

If Apple doesn't improve BD support with the next FCS update, I'll be switching to Premiere or Avid Media Composer. The last FCS update was such a disappointment I started to look around. Avid always had all the bells and whistles and is not so expensive anymore. And Premiere has improved greatly. Heck, it even surpasses FCS in certain areas. And to author BD's with proper menus I would have to buy it anyway...

Since buying TWO editing suites seems insane, this can only mean: Goodbye Final Cut Studio.
I don't think Apple will be able to compete on the same professional level as Avid and Adobe for much longer and therefore got the bad feeling FCS4 could be the last revision.

Better leave that sinking ship now...

Running windows is not as bad as some would have you believe. Just don't run IE in any form and you will forget what OS you're on when using your actual day to day tools.
 
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Using an external or internal BD drive is certainly not a problem. But having to buy and use that dreadful other OS you wouldn't touch with a stick IS A MAJOR ISSUE.
To keep face and their video customers, Apple should at least give away Win 7 with FCS for free!

If Apple doesn't improve BD support with the next FCS update, I'll be switching to Premiere or Avid Media Composer. The last FCS update was such a disappointment I started to look around. Avid always had all the bells and whistles and is not so expensive anymore. And Premiere has improved greatly. Heck, it even surpasses FCS in certain areas. And to author BD's with proper menus I would have to buy it anyway...

Since buying TWO editing suites seems insane, this can only mean: Goodbye Final Cut Studio.
I don't think Apple will be able to compete on the same professional level as Avid and Adobe for much longer and therefore got the bad feeling FCS4 could be the last revision.

Better leave that sinking ship now...

It's not just about FCS. Even OS X updates had become a joke, lately. Some people that I know and that they always had faith in Apple for its "pro" line products (FCS, Logic, etc..) have started to look more at Windows. Both for machine specs/prices, and also for software availability/prices. With almost the same price of a, let's say, 17" MBP combined with FCS or Adobe, you can have a high-end computer with BD burner, eSATA, HDMI etc..., as well AVID or Adobe.
While it's sad to admit this, Apple is not innovative anymore in terms of OS and "Pro" softwares.
 
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