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Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

-=XX=-Nephilim said:
I use broadband connection, all web content loads fine, Mac works perfectly and browser never crashes... That is until I get to that page... Beach spinning ball of Safari death and only way to cure it is to force quit unless it dies on its own...

Perhaps I need to upgrade to 10.6 in order to enjoy HTML5 video!?!?!

:D
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That page works for me and I'm on 10.5.8. Playback looks good but the frame rate is a little jerky in full screen mode. But I notice it is not multiprocessor aware or capable, it's only using 1 CPU core, and probably not the GPU.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.1-update1; en-gb; Nexus One Build/ERE27) AppleWebKit/530.17 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/530.17)

HLdan said:
thejadedmonkey said:
He's so conceited, I really hope the newspapers keep using flash, just to spite him. Never-mind I also disagree with his whole philosophy of trying to tell other companies what's in their best interests.
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With your way of thinking the industry would still be on Windows 95, since we don't need anyone telling us that we need better or what's in our best interest. :rolleyes:
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No one except Steve eh? :D
 
Earendil said:
As someone else said, there is a difference between current and bleeding edge.
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I checked my calendar and it is 2010.

Earendil said:
The fact is that Flash has not worked properly in OSX in years. Way before 2008. And Adobe has failed to fix this issue. That makes the technology old, dated, useless, especially when other technologies exist that do a better job for less money.

This can hardly be said about the majority of Apple hardware/software. What Apple uses, though not bleeding edge, gets the job done as intended, and works just as well now as when it was released. Flash runs worse today than it did 3 to 5 years ago. That is what I would call a dieing technology.
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Anuba is posting again today so I'm sure they can fill you in the improvements for Flash 10.1. (Even under OS X) In addition Flash supports hardware based acceleration on Broadcom HD chips. Get h.264 and Flash for a few dollars even on whatever crippled IGP you use.

I'd like to welcome you and Apple to 2010. I've enjoyed the virtues of GPU power outside of OS X far more often.
 
bnerd said:
Honestly guys/gals ... there's no point in arguing this. Flash isn't going anywhere. in fact if you would leave your walled Apple gardens and read the news you would see the exact opposite is happening. More and more devices are moving toward Flash.

Apple will be left in the dust and consumers will move to more powerful devices that will allow them to DO EVERYTHING on the web.
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I actually do read the news but maybe you're reading the things you want to. You're saying that more devices are beginning to support Flash and that is irrelevant. The relevant part is that the content providers are moving away from Flash. YouTube, Vimeo, Dailymotion, Brightcove and many others are moving away. If what you are saying is true then why are these providers moving away from it?

This will continue to happen because of the iPhone and more importantly the touch which sells more and is not tied to a contract like those other devices you mentioned.
 
Earendil said:
I didn't give an example, so I dunno what you're talking about.

HTML5 could do Farmville. And if you are aware of something specific to farmville that html5 couldn't handle, I'd love to hear it. This, btw, makes your example a lame one :cool:
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hehe, I was referring to my own example (Farmville) as being lame. ;) If you are aware of how HTML5 can handle Farmville, I'd actually read those links if you've got some.
 
Earendil said:
Umm... Facebook has not only produced an iPhone friendly version of their website, they have even gone so far as to release an iPhone app.

Different example please :)
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Yep, and it's bare-bones. Can't view video on it, can't play the applications. I use it to quickly check my profile or a message, but if I actually want to browse through the site for a longer duration, I have to pull out my laptop. Not really "just... the internet," would you say?

And that's on my phone. Imagine this problem magnified on a device intended to be the ultimate web browsing experience.
 
str1f3 said:
I actually do read the news but maybe you're reading the things you want to. You're saying that more devices are beginning to support Flash and that is irrelevant. The relevant part is that the content providers are moving away from Flash. YouTube, Vimeo, Dailymotion, Brightcove and many others are moving away. If what you are saying is true then why are these providers moving away from it?

This will continue to happen because of the iPhone and more importantly the touch which sells more and is not tied to a contract like those other devices you mentioned.
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YouTube isn't MOVING away from Flash .. they are testing video in HTML5 because it is a new technology that is being considered for a future HTML Standard.. they would look bad if they DIDN'T test it.

YouTube will not move from Flash... by doing so.. they would block all the millions of users who use IE ... which accounts for more than half of web users.. they would also cause inconstancy in browser version.

For YouTube and any other company.. Flash runs on all browsers.. all OS's .. and that's what they care about.
 
Anuba said:
You've been trying day and night for 25 years to retire this platform called Windows, insisting that Apple's alternative is vastly superior. You've done this by hammering home the message through innumerable TV ads, print ads, keynotes, the works. For 25 years! The result? Windows still holds a 90% marketshare worldwide. At this rate, it will take another 200+ years to erase Windows from the map. And that, Steve, is how "easily" you'll be able to kill Flash.
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That's ludicrous. You're comparing apples to oranges. Trying to retire an OS is entirely different from Flash. The only reason why Windows is dominant, even though vastly inferior to Mac OS X is the price. There's no such issue with HTML5. Actually, Apple has eliminated older technologies even though the newer ones were more expensive what matters.

The "battery hog" argument is even more ridiculous. It's not Flash itself that uses the power, it's the goddamn content. CPU/GPU intensive content is a power hog. You should know this from, you know, iPhone/iPod games. Do you REALLY annoying banners and intros will go away only because you replace Flash with HTML5, Steve? Do you really think it won't drain the battery just as quickly?
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You don't know what you're talking about. How is viewing a Flash video "CPU/GPU" intensive content? So why under Flash it uses around 20% CPU (which goes up to 100% in HD), while it's much, much lower with HTML5?

The issue is not about intensive content, it's about Flash choking the system and screwing the battery disproportionately to the complexity of the content. And in this case, HTML5 is a clear winner, may it be under OS X, Linux or Windows (whose extent varies, very big in netbooks and low end computers, smaller in the rest, but still inferior to HTML5)

Here's an example on a "netbook" (nevermind the crap)

Low res YT Flash video

HTML5 SKetchpad
 
"Entirely redo" ?

MacRumors said:
He apparently did not address, however, the steps that would be required for the paper to entirely redo its entire Web-based content in iPad-friendly technologies such as JavaScript.
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How much of the site uses non-standard web technologies?

Would the site really need to be "entirely" redone?

I never especially took notice, but I don't recall Flash being integrated into their site. Are they using it for anything but video?
 
Anuba said:
Right, umm... maybe Apple should've thought of that before they made the Adobe's proprietary PDF format a cornerstone of OS X.
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PDF is no longer a proprietary format:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format
Formerly a proprietary format, PDF was officially released as an open standard on July 1, 2008, and published by the International Organization for Standardization as ISO/IEC 32000-1:2008.
 
-=XX=-Nephilim said:
Why people keep on posting this link is beyond me...

It just proves that whole HTML5 thing is crap!

I run MBP c2d 2.4 with 8600M + 10.5.8 + latest Safari...

THIS PAGE GIVES SPINNING BEACH BALL ON SAFARI AND IT DOESNT WORK!

I mean... LOL :D

Am I the only one in this forums that cant run that video!?!?! :confused:
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You may be the only one... It works great on my old Mac book in Safari and FF and works just as well on my iPod touch. You problem is else where, not html5.
 
kas23 said:
No, Apple understands this fact all too well. If they allow Flash, then non-App Store games will be allowed on the iPhone. This will undermine the success of the App Store and Apple will lose millions. This is simply Apple stiffling technology/features for their own monetary gain.

The fact that Jobs had to physically travel to WSJ headquarters is very telling. Giant media publishing firms are having concerns with the ability of the iPad to deliver their content.
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E.Lizardo said:
Um,,Apple lists 977 games under "Web Apps".

http://www.apple.com/webapps/games/
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don't forget all the free apps in the app store.
 
To bnerd and -=XX=-Nephilim:

Why is it that I can play 6 HTM5 youtube videos concurrently without having my fans kick in at all?

Why is my web browning experience so much better with Click2Flash (flash blocker)?
 
HiRez said:
That page works for me and I'm on 10.5.8. Playback looks good but the frame rate is a little jerky in full screen mode. But I notice it is not multiprocessor aware or capable, it's only using 1 CPU core, and probably not the GPU.
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How long did it take to load up!?

In fact, is that video suppose to stream at all (as in starts playing as soon as you enter page!?)...

Perhaps its something to do with 10.5.8 since all guys running 10.6 can view it no problem!?

No idea...

Fact however remains, at least in my case, that I can NOT view it and that it crashes or hangs latest version of Safari :cool:
 
4% of the world computer market, an ipad that has yet to prove itself, and no real tools for the "replacement" - yeah, good luck with that. Flash will be around for some time.
 
RT2020 said:
To bnerd and -=XX=-Nephilim:

Why is it that I can play 6 HTM5 youtube videos concurrently without having my fans kick in at all?

Why is my web browning experience so much better with Click2Flash (flash blocker)?
Click to expand...

Perhaps cos you are super cool dude! :)
 
DVD Plaza said:
Yes Apple USED to be the one pushing new technologies, but not anymore...

First to push USB, yet not using USB3.
First to push DVD, yet only person on the planet not using Blu-ray.
First access to some CPUs, yet last to still sell Core 2 Duo (at full premium price)!
First with a nextgen GUI, yet 10 years later it's now looking dated.
Blah blah blah.... Last to implement SD card slots, not yet using SATA3, heck what about built in 3G on MacBooks like we've had with ThinkPads for years?!

You're behind the times Jobs :(
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No, Jobs is still ahead of the times. Way ahead. Sometimes to push new technologies, the old ones have to be dropped, even if a suitable replacement doesn't exist or isn't mature yet. Of course, dropping a technology is hard, but if someone, or some company, doesn't stand up at some point, it will just continue to stick around. For all the people that say an HTML 5 Internet will be ready in x years and it's too soon to drop Flash support, that x years will continue to get pushed back if a stand isn't taken at some point.

Also, the most popular sites that require Flash will not only be adopting non-Flash technologies for their sites, but creating far more, powerful, innovative and device specific applications for the iPhone/iPod touch and iPad.

Apple and Jobs have a history of this, this is nothing new.

Dropped floppy.
Dropped modem.
Dropped full size video ports.
Dropped VGA, then DVI.
Dropped removable battery.
Dropping Flash.

The updates to the old technologies you mention aren't what's next, it's completely new ways of doing things that're next...

Examples:

USB 3.0 vs. Wi-Fi/Bluetooth/Light Peak
Blu-ray vs. digital downloads

Apple and Jobs will win this one. You shall see.
 
RT2020 said:
To bnerd and -=XX=-Nephilim:

Why is it that I can play 6 HTM5 youtube videos concurrently without having my fans kick in at all?

Why is my web browning experience so much better with Click2Flash (flash blocker)?
Click to expand...

That's because flash is a plugin that isn't using Apple GPU ... so when videos are played through the flash plugin.. its being rendered by SOFTWARE. Adobe has mentioned that Apple isn't allowing them to access the GPU like Microsoft has.
 
Flash Blows

The problem with Flash started when idiots embedded video, which it's not even remotely suited. It's great for vector and sprite animation and interactivity, etc., but video - no.
 
Perhaps a silly question, but can you do closed-source apps in HTML5? (I know you can probably decode swfs as well, but at least it requires a bit more effort than opening the page source in your browser).

Also, is there any decent developer tool out there for interactive HTML5 development? Or are people just working with text editors?
 
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