Steve Jobs' Wall Street Journal Visit Reportedly Included Arguments Against Flash

[ozarkchoir]

Have never once visited that site...

and it worked just fine for me. And actually... I found it pretty darn impressive.

Why people keep on posting this link is beyond me...

It just proves that whole HTML5 thing is crap!

I run MBP c2d 2.4 with 8600M + 10.5.8 + latest Safari...

THIS PAGE GIVES SPINNING BEACH BALL ON SAFARI AND IT DOESNT WORK!

I mean... LOL

Am I the only one in this forums that cant run that video!?!?!

 

[Corrosive vinyl]

I don't have time or energy to learn some complex programming language so I can't make an animated cartoon for example if Flash gets abandoned.

Remember lotus notes? Remember DOS? Remember punch cards? technology keeps advancing. That is why doctors have seminars all the time and people in the workforce are going back to school. They have to learn and know the new tech or be swallowed by the wave of tech.

 

[kas23]

it works just fine for me with latest OS and safari with no additional plug-ins.

Exactly. I don't know what type of Macs these people are using, but Flash works perfectly on my Mac and always has.

 

[E.Lizardo]

developers are slowing leaving and now customers.

Citation needed.

 

[Earendil]

If you like living in 2008...

As someone else said, there is a difference between current and bleeding edge.

The fact is that Flash has not worked properly in OSX in years. Way before 2008. And Adobe has failed to fix this issue. That makes the technology old, dated, useless, especially when other technologies exist that do a better job for less money.

This can hardly be said about the majority of Apple hardware/software. What Apple uses, though not bleeding edge, gets the job done as intended, and works just as well now as when it was released. Flash runs worse today than it did 3 to 5 years ago. That is what I would call a dieing technology.

 

[Earendil]

Citation needed.

Youtube.

Actually, the mere existence of HTML5 and the talk surrounding it would imply that people are adopting it, would it not?

 

[coleridge78]

MPEG LA, the license holder, said the free licensing ends 2016. Their words, not mine. They can change their minds, but will they really? Remember when the gif format and mp3 formats caused all those lawsuits a while back? That only happened once those formats became popular.

Those weren't their words, but I agree that's the likely scenario. In the meantime, we've all been paying for Flash for over a decade and will keep paying for it between now and 2016. There'd be a long way to go for the H.264 fees to catch up.

And again, the licensing is a red herring anyway because Flash videos often use H.264 behind the scenes. When they don't they use Flash's own codec which is just trash, and not open. The real question is whether the delivery system will be closed, with all dues paid to Adobe (Flash) or open (HTML5).

I'll give you that it's inefficient (on the mac, on noes!), but what fees? You mean buying software to run on a streaming video server? Or buying Flash CS4? You might as well claim that adobe charges fees when it asks users to buy photoshop.

Yes, you might as well... except that there are plenty of other options. You seem to be, as most people are, advocating a Flash-only ecosystem for video (and interactive content), which means it becomes a pay-to-play system.

Also, Flash is at its worst on OS X, but across nearly all systems it's the second-worst video delivery container (after Real).

And flash is an open format. There are open source alternatives to flash, flash video, and flex:

http://osflash.org/flv

Also, Flash opened it's format in October of 1998. Remember when Adobe made a Flash alternative program before they bought Macromedia?

Microsoft's DOCX is an "open format" also. That's tricksy, tricksy language.

 

[-=XX=-Nephilim]

and it worked just fine for me. And actually... I found it pretty darn impressive.

Ok great...

Can some of HTML5 geniuses over here please tell me why it doesn't work on my Mac and it hangs Safari... !?!?!

 

[Takeo]

Why? Because Saint Steve said so?

Personally... I've been a proud Flash hater from the start... like... 10 or more years ago. I've been developing websites for over 15 years and never had the need or desire to develop anything in Flash other than a header. And all that simple animation can be done with jQuery and CSS now.

As for games... that's a good point. I don't play games. But I know a lot of people do. Nevertheless... I wouldn't shed a tear if Flash died.

 

[PeterQVenkman]

The fact is that Flash has not worked properly in OSX in years. Way before 2008. And Adobe has failed to fix this issue. That makes the technology old, dated, useless, especially when other technologies exist that do a better job for less money.

Juts one lame example - how do all those Farmville addicts play in any browser without flash? What technology that exists does it better?

 

[Earendil]

Exactly. I don't know what type of Macs these people are using, but Flash works perfectly on my Mac and always has.

I've had Flash crash the latest version of Chrome, Safari, and Firefox, on different websites. I'm running a fully updated 2ghz Core 2 duo Mac Mini.
All those crashes have happened in the last 6 months. No other technology has managed to bring down a browser window in those same 6 months as far as I've been aware.

 

[xIGmanIx]

Facebook isn't going to change because apple wants it to, more than likely, apple will change to support facebook.

You're right, they will miss out on some of this. But, if the iPad becomes big enough, whoever makes Farmville will have incentive to write a native app for it, or someone else will do it or clone it (and any other Flash game). Apple would much prefer this because they get 30% of the revenues, whereas with web-based Flash games they get zero.

 

[ChazUK]

It's been tested for ten years. There's no reason to think Adobe is suddenly going to put effort into getting it right. Also, while some shills and partisans here are claiming the contrary, Flash on other mobiles cuts battery life by up to half, or more:

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=3636

Considering Adobe's track record on Apple OSs I wouldn't doubt that it's much worse on an iFoo device.

Great read, thanks.

Firefox with Adblock Plus places at the top, since Flash content can dramatically increase CPU usage relative to static images; most probably assumed AdBlock would help more, but it only improved battery life with Firefox by 4.3%.

OOFT!

Safari 4 under Windows is again the worst solution for battery life, perhaps because it doesn't handle Flash content as well as the other browsers. CPU usage is definitely higher under Safari 4 with our test websites, and it trails the best option by 23%.

OH NOES!

The major exception is that Apple's Safari 4 web browser again comes in last, again by a large margin. Chrome managed 36% more battery life on the 1005HA than Safari, and Flash content within Safari 4 used a significant amount of CPU time. Safari seems to want more CPU power than the Atom can provide, with the result being the processor is often near 100% utilization for significant amounts of time on Flash-heavy sites.

ZOMG!

See a pattern there? I take it that that extensive test wasn't done using Flash 10.1 was it? Of course interactive content is going to use more CPU cycles compared to static images but to say that it would reduce the battery life from 10 hours to just 1.5 hours is a 'tad' over the top (hence the bollocks part).

 

[Earendil]

Juts one lame example - how do all those Farmville addicts play in any browser without flash? What technology that exists does it better?

I didn't give an example, so I dunno what you're talking about.

HTML5 could do Farmville. And if you are aware of something specific to farmville that html5 couldn't handle, I'd love to hear it. This, btw, makes your example a lame one

 

[bnerd]

I've had Flash crash the latest version of Chrome, Safari, and Firefox, on different websites. I'm running a fully updated 2ghz Core 2 duo Mac Mini.
All those crashes have happened in the last 6 months. No other technology has managed to bring down a browser window in those same 6 months as far as I've been aware.

So why doesn't Apple support Silverlight, Java, or any other plugin on their devices?? These other technologies work well on Macs.

Its because it has nothing to do with performance.. Steve is lying to everyone.. its all about making money off the App Store. He doesn't care about what his customers want.. he just cares about making that next million. And if blocking things like Flash, Silverlight, or any other technology that can create web apps.. he will.

 

[Earendil]

Facebook isn't going to change because apple wants it to, more than likely, apple will change to support facebook.

Umm... Facebook has not only produced an iPhone friendly version of their website, they have even gone so far as to release an iPhone app.

Different example please

 

[RT2020]

This is all going to catch up to Adobe, despite what all of the flash developers on the forum try to tell you.

Remember Real Player? Things change

Flash is a huge pig on windows as well and I know plenty who us Flash blockers in their browsers on Windows.

This company needs to learn how to build software that is not resource intensive, bloated, and buggy.

 

[szoylent.green]

http://jilion.com/sublime/video

Why people keep on posting this link is beyond me...

It just proves that whole HTML5 thing is crap!

I run MBP c2d 2.4 with 8600M + 10.5.8 + latest Safari...

THIS PAGE GIVES SPINNING BEACH BALL ON SAFARI AND IT DOESNT WORK!

I mean... LOL

Am I the only one in this forums that cant run that video!?!?!

Works perfect for me, tried on a TEN YEAR OLD G3 POWERBOOK! with Tiger, and it freaking plays!!!

Also works perfect on my Mac Book.

Flash is the biggest piece of ***** ever dumped on the Mac and Linux communities. Even if I have a browser window open with some crap all Flash adds, my CPU jumps to about 50% and stays there. I have been so freaking happy since in installed click to flash!, and you know what, I can't remember the last time I ever clicked on anything to flash, because they are all annoying ass adds. Before click to flash, my browser would routinely crash about 5 times a day, and now, zero.

I have seen some really amazing stuff done with HTML5, especially the canvas element. The 3D canvas in the latest Safari nightly builds is freaking awesome.

The only argument I can see for Flash is lazy developers, and I use the term 'developers' loosely. Basically people who wouldn't know an algorithm if it came up and bit them on the ass. Flash developers make Microsoft Front Page developers look like absolute geniuses.

So, sorry about the ranting tone of this, but I truly detest Flash, for all the annoying adds, for all the crashes, for causing my cooling fan to spin at 10,000 RPM, for killing my battery life, and perhaps most of all, the absolutely hideous pages that are the result of Flash.

 

[2contagious]

I hope Apple kills flash.

Same. Not because I hate Flash, but because either side has to win. Either Flash goes completely or it stays completely. Half/Half will only make consumers suffer.

 

[Winter Charm]

Article in Brief:

's CEO Jobs, ,basically took out a leather glove, and proceeded to B*tch Slap Flashplayer and left it drooling in the fetal position amongst a pile of floppie disks.

Things dont get any better than that.

 

[bnerd]

This is all going to catch up to Adobe, despite what all of the flash developers on the forum try to tell you.

Remember Real Player? Things change

But Real player was only used for Audio and Video ... that's only a fraction of what Flash does.

 

[Anuba]

I think one of the biggest reasons against Flash is that you're locked in to Adobes system once your content and site design is made for Flash. It would be better to go with more open standards like H.246 and HTML5 and Javascript.

Right, umm... maybe Apple should've thought of that before they made the Adobe's proprietary PDF format a cornerstone of OS X.

According to the report, Jobs then shared a list of technologies such as floppy drives, data port standards, and CCFL-backlit LEDs that Apple had helped computer users abandon in favor of newer technologies.

Yes, which is of absolutely zero relevance in this case. Has Steve's IQ suddenly dropped below 100, or was he just hoping that the WSJ audience was borderline retarded?

Since Flash is a popular software-based platform, not an impopular and outdated data port standard, here's a more apt comparison for you Steve:

You've been trying day and night for 25 years to retire this platform called Windows, insisting that Apple's alternative is vastly superior. You've done this by hammering home the message through innumerable TV ads, print ads, keynotes, the works. For 25 years! The result? Windows still holds a 90% marketshare worldwide. At this rate, it will take another 200+ years to erase Windows from the map. And that, Steve, is how "easily" you'll be able to kill Flash.

The "battery hog" argument is even more ridiculous. It's not Flash itself that uses the power, it's the goddamn content. CPU/GPU intensive content is a power hog. You should know this from, you know, iPhone/iPod games. Do you REALLY think annoying banners and intros will go away only because you replace Flash with HTML5, Steve? Do you really think it won't drain the battery just as quickly?

 

[Ed91]

I feel quite conflicted about the lack of Flash.

Personally, I wish Flash to die, but Apple is at risk of alienating its users by crippling its device's capability in an attempt to make a political statement. Flash may be dying, but it's not yet dead - or anywhere near at this point, and with other mobile devices getting Flash, Apple will be left on its own in the cold.

I'd much prefer if Apple used something like click to flash with a semi derogatory icon, like Windows networked computers have in SL. Perhaps a drained battery. This still implies that Apple doesn't like Flash, but gives the user a choice to run it if they really must.

That won't happen, though. It looks like Apple is standing firm, and I hope Flash falls first.. *fingers crossed*

 

[andyone]

Flash is capable of playing h264 encoded mp4 files, but that is different from .flv.

FLV ist just the container format, it can contain different codecs. H.264 is the codec recommended by Adobe for HD videos, it's the only one that is hardware accelerated, and it's used by Youtube, Vimeo and many others.

 

[xIGmanIx]

Half/Half is hardly the picture, more like 1000 vs .01 in regards to the amount of devices that support flash (pretty much all) and those that don't (only one comes to mind is iPhone)

Same. Not because I hate Flash, but because either side has to win. Either Flash goes completely or it stays completely. Half/Half will only make consumers suffer.