Switched from Macbook Pro to Framework?

[JoeG4]

I run Linux on my workstation. Security is a nightmare and needs baby sitting.

I am curious what you are doing and what your security concerns are. Genuinely, not criticizing, just curious.

I would not give up my MBP for Linux laptop.

If it were my only computer I'd want it to be a Mac. I like apple laptops. Just being able to open the dang thing with one hand is nice. At least in the time I've used linux on a laptop, if the laptop was decent enough to run linux without issues, it was actually a pretty ok experience. Better than windows for work anyway. At least the damn thing would go to sleep and STAY asleep lol.

But for a personal machine? Especially if it were my only machine? I'd be happier with a mac.

Before I bought my macbook air m2, I was waiting for the framework 16 to come out. But then I had a family trip coming up and wanted a new laptop right then, and the framework 16 still wasn't available. I think they also cost almost twice what I paid for my macbook air lol.

A coworker friend of mine did end up getting a 16 and I think it's really cool. Very gadgety. I'm sure a Mac elegance enthusiast would hate it lol.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I am curious what you are doing and what your security concerns are. Genuinely, not criticizing, just curious.


If it were my only computer I'd want it to be a Mac. I like apple laptops. Just being able to open the dang thing with one hand is nice. At least in the time I've used linux on a laptop, if the laptop was decent enough to run linux without issues, it was actually a pretty ok experience. Better than windows for work anyway. At least the damn thing would go to sleep and STAY asleep lol.

But for a personal machine? Especially if it were my only machine? I'd be happier with a mac.

Before I bought my macbook air m2, I was waiting for the framework 16 to come out. But then I had a family trip coming up and wanted a new laptop right then, and the framework 16 still wasn't available. I think they also cost almost twice what I paid for my macbook air lol.

A coworker friend of mine did end up getting a 16 and I think it's really cool. Very gadgety. I'm sure a Mac elegance enthusiast would hate it lol.

Linux libraries are very poorly managed. Not hard to get rogue code or exploits in to those libraries which can go undetected.
Here is a more visible example but there are plenty more that doesn’t get reported. I pay enterprise subscription for security patches and alerts.

Microsoft employee accidentally saves global Linux meltdown from CVE-2024-3094 XZ backdoor

A curious Microsoft employee has saved the world from a potential global meltdown as several Linux distros were found vulnerable to an XZ backdoor tracked under CVE-2024-3094 (CVSS score of 10.0).

www.neowin.net

If you want to see how secure your Linux machine is, open port 80 or 22 on your network and watch the trace. You will see it getting hacked by bots in real time. And I wouldn’t want to use Linux in a public network.

 

[glen-the-grey]

Linux libraries are very poorly managed. Not hard to get rogue code or exploits in to those libraries which can go undetected.
Here is a more visible example but there are plenty more that doesn’t get reported. I pay enterprise subscription for security patches and alerts.

Microsoft employee accidentally saves global Linux meltdown from CVE-2024-3094 XZ backdoor

A curious Microsoft employee has saved the world from a potential global meltdown as several Linux distros were found vulnerable to an XZ backdoor tracked under CVE-2024-3094 (CVSS score of 10.0).

www.neowin.net

If you want to see how secure your Linux machine is, open port 80 or 22 on your network and watch the trace. You will see it getting hacked by bots in real time. And I wouldn’t want to use Linux in a public network.

Interesting, however, if you dig deeper into the CVE details here is a comparison of the latest versions of three popular operating systems:

Windows 11 26H1: 126 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerab...duct_id-188120/Microsoft-Windows-11-26H1.html)

Debian 13: 8 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/version-list/23/36/1/Debian-Debian-Linux.html)

MacOS 26.4: 0 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/version-list/49/70318/1/Apple-Macos.html)

I'll admit that one of the vulnerabilites on Debian was an absolute doozy but it has since been patched—assuming you've applied all the latest security updates? If security really is your primary concern though I would probably be using something like OpenBSD and if you care about integrity as well as security then I would also be making sure to use a system with ECC RAM and probably running QNX or GreenHills Integrity-178 (but then you'd also have to have deep pockets...)

 

[Steve Adams]

I am curious what you are doing and what your security concerns are. Genuinely, not criticizing, just curious.


If it were my only computer I'd want it to be a Mac. I like apple laptops. Just being able to open the dang thing with one hand is nice. At least in the time I've used linux on a laptop, if the laptop was decent enough to run linux without issues, it was actually a pretty ok experience. Better than windows for work anyway. At least the damn thing would go to sleep and STAY asleep lol.

But for a personal machine? Especially if it were my only machine? I'd be happier with a mac.

Before I bought my macbook air m2, I was waiting for the framework 16 to come out. But then I had a family trip coming up and wanted a new laptop right then, and the framework 16 still wasn't available. I think they also cost almost twice what I paid for my macbook air lol.

A coworker friend of mine did end up getting a 16 and I think it's really cool. Very gadgety. I'm sure a Mac elegance enthusiast would hate it lol.

I find this one funny. Most people tout being able to open their laptop with one hand as the biggest feature. The rest of the experience must be quite lackluster. I have two hands, it's not the difficult to open my laptop with two hands really. I would be more impressed with port selection, device power, battery life, etc than opening it with one hand. I think if I had one hand, yeah...that would be the biggest draw.

 

[DanneP]

If you want to see how secure your Linux machine is, open port 80 or 22 on your network and watch the trace. You will see it getting hacked by bots in real time. And I wouldn’t want to use Linux in a public network.

This sounds a bit strange to me. I'm no security expert but there's nothing listening on port 80 by default on most Linux systems, so what is the security risk here? And if there was something listening it would be a webserver, they tend to be quite mature and tested by the millions.

And about port 22, if anything is listening there it's probably because you have OpenSSH enabled which is developed by very much security focused OpenBSD and has very few known vulnerabilities.

"Hacked by bots in real time", sure, they'll without a doubt try to connect but I wouldn't call that "hacked".

 

[Pezimak]

According to those in the know Linux is gaining ground on Windows, I assume mainly due to Windows 11? More manufacturers are offering it as an option pre-installed.

 

[glen-the-grey]

There are several other suppliers who offer Linux pre-installed:

1. Starlabs Systems
2. Slimbook
3. System76
4. Dell (sporadically offers laptops with Ubuntu)

Those are the four that come to mind off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others...I guess the nifty thing about the Framework offering is like other people have said is the ability to easily swap out broken or obsolete components.

 

[Steve Adams]

There are several other suppliers who offer Linux pre-installed:

1. Starlabs Systems
2. Slimbook
3. System76
4. Dell (sporadically offers laptops with Ubuntu)

Those are the four that come to mind off the top of my head but I'm sure there are others...I guess the nifty thing about the Framework offering is like other people have said is the ability to easily swap out broken or obsolete components.

There are also framework and Tuxedo computers as well.

 

[maflynn]

There are several other suppliers who offer Linux pre-installed:

You can get thinkpads and dell laptops preinstalled with Linux as well

I guess the nifty thing about the Framework offering is like other people have said is the ability to easily swap out broken or obsolete components

I think you're paying a premium for this type of machine, and except for a few components most people don't need that level of upgrade/replairability.

 

[capamac]

I've been using Macs since 1993. I think Linux/BSD is great in that they put some pressure on macOS to try and steer away from enshi**itification (Cory Doctorow's concept). I agree with previous poster, Linux is definitely nicer than Windows. What I like about Linux/BSD is the freedom that comes with these OSes. MacOS offers less choice and seems to changing to become more like the overly dumbed-down iOS.

The computing world is better because of the Linux folks.

 

[maflynn]

I think Linux/BSD is great in that they put some pressure on macOS to try and steer away from enshi**itification

Is it really putting pressure on Apple to keep macos lean and mean?

Apple seems to moving full steam ahead with subscriptions, and people have complained about seeing ads in their apps regarding the new subs.

Personally, I think the powers that be in Apple don't care about Linux, its a non-issue for them

 

[chars1ub0w]

Just as pricy as regular ddr5.

LPCAMM2 modules, being new, will be scarce and take a while to come down in price.
Meanwhile, there are deals here and there on regular DDR5.

 

[chars1ub0w]

My thoughts:
I do not care for Windows and would not want installed on my computer. Linux is superior.
Office is the most overrated suite in software history. Plus there's open source and closed source alternatives.
Likewise, Adobe I view as a predatory company and no longer use their products.

This probably indicates you don't work in a large organization/institution or collaborate on documents?

Office is standard across the world. For example, people write, edit and comment on Word, shared across countries and timezones. Can't assume a platform. Using Word is friction-free.

Similarly, Adobe has software that large organizations use for signing documents etc. You can't not run them.

 

[chars1ub0w]

I run Linux on my workstation. Security is a nightmare and needs baby sitting. I can dual boot to windows but don’t remember when I booted up windows. Linux is alright for workstation, but I would not give up my MBP for Linux laptop.

Generally, most Linux distros are considered more secure than Windows 11. What some people don't like about Linux is that you're always nearly out of date. Pull a newer version of a library and there is a cascade of updates due to dependencies.

I run Ubuntu via dual boot (expensive but old Dell) and WSL(2), Windows 11 (cheap, modern Dell) and macOS simultaneously. I prefer to develop on a mac (actually two macs), but periodically check that my code runs on all three platforms. That's why I keep two 32GB RAM Dell laptops around. It's not friction-free as I have to special case code around some platform weirdness (that I don't have time to figure out).

 

[capamac]

Is it really putting pressure on Apple to keep macos lean and mean?

Apple seems to moving full steam ahead with subscriptions, and people have complained about seeing ads in their apps regarding the new subs.

Personally, I think the powers that be in Apple don't care about Linux, its a non-issue for them

Lean and mean ... I don't think of macOS as being especially lean and mean these days. It's more like Ubuntu ... it's got everything in it. Kinda heavy.

Yes, subs and ads are a good example here.

I don't think Apple really cares that much about Linux either. But I do. And in fact I intend to switch to x86-64 PC hardware running Linux/BSD as my next computer (been using an M1 Air past six years.) Because I think Apple's gotten off-track in many regards; becoming too corporate-minded, too focused on profits and all this nonsense that doesn't matter to me as an Mac user. Apple making profits does not interest me as just a regular Mac user. Stonk prices. MacOS bugs, Liquid Glass, ads, subscriptions, over-iOS-ification of macOS. And Linux/BSD is an option for me. I don't *need* Apple since Linux/BSD is there. So it's easy to leave.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Interesting, however, if you dig deeper into the CVE details here is a comparison of the latest versions of three popular operating systems:

Windows 11 26H1: 126 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerab...duct_id-188120/Microsoft-Windows-11-26H1.html)

Debian 13: 8 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/version-list/23/36/1/Debian-Debian-Linux.html)

MacOS 26.4: 0 vulnerabilities
(https://www.cvedetails.com/version-list/49/70318/1/Apple-Macos.html)

I'll admit that one of the vulnerabilites on Debian was an absolute doozy but it has since been patched—assuming you've applied all the latest security updates? If security really is your primary concern though I would probably be using something like OpenBSD and if you care about integrity as well as security then I would also be making sure to use a system with ECC RAM and probably running QNX or GreenHills Integrity-178 (but then you'd also have to have deep pockets...)

Generally, most Linux distros are considered more secure than Windows 11. What some people don't like about Linux is that you're always nearly out of date. Pull a newer version of a library and there is a cascade of updates due to dependencies.

I run Ubuntu via dual boot (expensive but old Dell) and WSL(2), Windows 11 (cheap, modern Dell) and macOS simultaneously. I prefer to develop on a mac (actually two macs), but periodically check that my code runs on all three platforms. That's why I keep two 32GB RAM Dell laptops around. It's not friction-free as I have to special case code around some platform weirdness (that I don't have time to figure out).

Hardened linux works great for servers and it’s manageable on a workstation. Though not very convenient I hardened my workstation not to the extent of servers. I wouldn’t want to harden Linux on a laptop. Base Linux installation for most flavors is begging to be hacked.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Generally, most Linux distros are considered more secure than Windows 11. What some people don't like about Linux is that you're always nearly out of date. Pull a newer version of a library and there is a cascade of updates due to dependencies.

I run Ubuntu via dual boot (expensive but old Dell) and WSL(2), Windows 11 (cheap, modern Dell) and macOS simultaneously. I prefer to develop on a mac (actually two macs), but periodically check that my code runs on all three platforms. That's why I keep two 32GB RAM Dell laptops around. It's not friction-free as I have to special case code around some platform weirdness (that I don't have time to figure out).

Cascade of libraries some abandoned for years is a huge problem. If any one thinks managing linux is easier than macOS or windows, they will soon find out how hard it is too keep a tab on things they never have to worry. Ironically I always loved Linux even during glory days of windows. My first job was Linux kernel programming. But I like to keep my laptops with minimal upkeep.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Lean and mean ... I don't think of macOS as being especially lean and mean these days. It's more like Ubuntu ... it's got everything in it. Kinda heavy.

Yes, subs and ads are a good example here.

I don't think Apple really cares that much about Linux either. But I do. And in fact I intend to switch to x86-64 PC hardware running Linux/BSD as my next computer (been using an M1 Air past six years.) Because I think Apple's gotten off-track in many regards; becoming too corporate-minded, too focused on profits and all this nonsense that doesn't matter to me as a Mac user. Apple making profits does not interest me as just a regular Mac user. Stonk prices. MacOS bugs, Liquid Glass, ads, subscriptions, over-iOS-ification of macOS. And Linux/BSD is an option for me. I don't *need* Apple since Linux/BSD is there. So it's easy to leave.

Good luck. I am curious to see how it works out for you. Report back after using Linux.

 

[maflynn]

I don't think Apple really cares that much about Linux either. But I do. And in fact I intend to switch to x86-64 PC hardware

80% of my desktop computer usage is now firmly on Linux - CachyOS. I have my M4 Studio - great computer don't get me wrong, but I'm liking how responsive and fast CachyOS is and it scratches that nerdy itch that I have.

 

[capamac]

This probably indicates you don't work in a large organization/institution or collaborate on documents?

Office is standard across the world. For example, people write, edit and comment on Word, shared across countries and timezones. Can't assume a platform. Using Word is friction-free.

Similarly, Adobe has software that large organizations use for signing documents etc. You can't not run them.

Office may be a global standard but it's a corporate trap. And, in Word for example, it's just freakin' text. I don't even consider Word to be an especially good word processor. Excel is just a spreadsheet, like the other spreadsheets with comma-separated values and whatnot. Powerpoint is, ah, "pointlessly" bad software.

France and Germany are moving away from Office toward free software alternatives.

I've never worked in a large organization that collaborated with documents like that. But I've worked for small organizations with a dozen or so employees ... weekly newspapers ... off-and-on since the 1990s.

One newspaper I worked at used Word 4.0 on Classic MacOS 7 back in the late 90s. None of the other papers used Office products at all. We'd get Word documents emailed to us for various purposes and we always managed to open those documents with Pages or one of the open source office clones, copy the text out if useful, edit it and and paste it in Adobe InDesign.

Occasionally you'd get a Word doc or something that wouldn't open the normal way, so I'd open in it BBEdit and poke around through all the tags until I found the text I was interested in and copy that.

"Normies" aren't going to open a Word doc in BBEdit tho, I get that.

I don't consider Word to be friction-free coz I view having to use MS Office products as a major friction point. I think the whole situation with Office and Adobe is a sort of corporate trap that many people are content to not even try escaping from.

Gimp can replace Photoshop for newspaper work; I've done it. Pagination software is trickier since Adobe InDesign and Quark XPress dominate ... it's more difficult to escape in this area, but it could theoretically be done.

 

[Hajj.david]

Linux is a great server OS, but thats where its speciality ends. For desktop/customer facing its a constant headache and tinkering (some people enjoy tinkering with their OS, more power to them). For someone like me who worked in IT for more than 20 years and a senior software engineer, I want my tools to work and work reliably out of the box.

That being said for my business we use a mix of linux and mac servers, can't beat linux when it comes to servers, barely uses system resources, can run basically forever and constant security updates.

 

[Hajj.david]

Office may be a global standard but it's a corporate trap. And, in Word for example, it's just freakin' text. I don't even consider Word to be an especially good word processor. Excel is just a spreadsheet, like the other spreadsheets with comma-separated values and whatnot. Powerpoint is, ah, "pointlessly" bad software.

France and Germany are moving away from Office toward free software alternatives.

I've never worked in a large organization that collaborated with documents like that. But I've worked for small organizations with a dozen or so employees ... weekly newspapers ... off-and-on since the 1990s.

One newspaper I worked at used Word 4.0 on Classic MacOS 7 back in the late 90s. None of the other papers used Office products at all. We'd get Word documents emailed to us for various purposes and we always managed to open those documents with Pages or one of the open source office clones, copy the text out if useful, edit it and and paste it in Adobe InDesign.

Occasionally you'd get a Word doc or something that wouldn't open the normal way, so I'd open in it BBEdit and poke around through all the tags until I found the text I was interested in and copy that.

"Normies" aren't going to open a Word doc in BBEdit tho, I get that.

I don't consider Word to be friction-free coz I view having to use MS Office products as a major friction point. I think the whole situation with Office and Adobe is a sort of corporate trap that many people are content to not even try escaping from.

Gimp can replace Photoshop for newspaper work; I've done it. Pagination software is trickier since Adobe InDesign and Quark XPress dominate ... it's more difficult to escape in this area, but it could theoretically be done.

Gimp is garbage software, affinity is the only thing close to photoshop. Also there is no genuine competitors to Excel except the most basic of spreadsheets. Even Excel on iPad and mac is inferior to Windows Excel.

 

[capamac]

Linux is a great server OS, but thats where its speciality ends. For desktop/customer facing its a constant headache and tinkering (some people enjoy tinkering with their OS, more power to them). For someone like me who worked in IT for more than 20 years and a senior software engineer, I want my tools to work and work reliably out of the box.

That being said for my business we use a mix of linux and mac servers, can't beat linux when it comes to servers, barely uses system resources, can run basically forever and constant security updates.

I used to use Apple II ProDOS as well as MS-DOS on a 386 PC. Linux with a GUI is easier to use than both, and millions of people were able to use ProDOS and MS-DOS just fine.

 

[chars1ub0w]

Office may be a global standard but it's a corporate trap. And, in Word for example, it's just freakin' text. I don't even consider Word to be an especially good word processor.

Hang on, it's not just text. Many publishers require Word. There are formatting and style constraints for 99% of stuff that I write that appears in print. And they differ with different publishers.

I used to use LaTeX. But many collaborators weren't TeX macro experts, so switching to Word was the only sane path.

 

[capamac]

Ah, what publishers are you speaking of?

(In the newspaper world, nothing is 'published' with Word, really. They print from PDFs generated via pagination software to large format imagesetter printing devices either to negative or direct-to-plate.)