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T-Minus (3) Days Until VEGA!!
- Thread starter fate0311
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The MacBook.
Keyboard failure is the serious issue. I could live with KP and the TouchBar.
People have brought up this 5-6% figure before but
a) Do you know what they were returned for, i.e what issue specifically?
b) No furor was made about the keyboard on forums or reviews about issues and I don’t think that’s a coincidence
c) No repair program for the keyboards of those so clearly it wasn’t such an issue that lawsuits were created. And it’s not like Apple didn’t do repair programs before for gpugate and staingate.
Surely even today, you’d trust the 2014 keyboard over the current given all the evidence?
Not verified? The user has gotten his Vega 20 today and posted GB scores. What else do you want?
Read the page. There was one that someone found a day or two ago on the results page of geekbench. It wasn't verified that was legit. I am not talking about any here.
[doublepost=1542756223][/doublepost]Bench Marks are in.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...new-radeon-pro-vega-graphics-surface.2156117/
Really good, better than I expected. The heaven benchmark seems quite a lot lower than GTX 1050 TI laptops though like the XPS 9570 (unless I’m comparing Apples and oranges).
I want to see how it performs under Windows. macOS has horrible graphics performance.
Some of his tests results are impressive for Vega 20. Why would the machine show it runs cooler when not using the CPU vs the 560X?
Sine they both use the same heatpipe, most likely the 560x was hotter idling than the Vega. Just my guess.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/vega-mackbook-benchmarks.2156142/
Here's some of the benchmarks I've gotten on mine so far. Still testing though.
Here's some of the benchmarks I've gotten on mine so far. Still testing though.
That’s quite impressive then. They managed to improve performance per watt by a factor of three in just three years!
Yep.
Interested to see gaming benchmarks on macOS to see how the improvements are to the 560 (not a fan of Bootcamp personally).
I still don't get it
The concept of a computer screaming bloody murder confuses meThe 5-6% is based on the only quantitative survey we have on the topic: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-pro-keyboard-failure-rate-double-older-models/
What that article says is also consistent with anecdotal reports from IT departments posted on reddit as well as with my observation over the butterfly keyboard Macs we have purchased in last 2 years (out of approx. 20 of them, a single one has developed a slight problem with keys sticking).
Please don't get me wrong. It is a fact that butterfly keyboards are more prone to certain types of failure. Its not even a point of discussion, since Apple themselves said that and offered free keyboard replacements on affected models. These keyboards are prone to dust and particle accumulation which can block and in some cases even damage the switches, and they do require more maintenance and care than the old keyboards. Which is further reinforced by the fact that there is surprising amount of people that suffer keyboard failures in a row — suggesting that this is at least in part conditioned by user behaviour and/or environment.
Still, I do not think that all this really matters. First of all, I can live with a 5% overall chance of keyboard failure. Based on industry average, there is approx. 20% chance that my laptop will fail within 3 years anyway. This doesn't add to it substantially. And should something go wrong, we are covered by warranty + extended warranty, so it can be fixed quickly (talk to your service provider, ask them to order parts first and then call you, this way the actual downtime will be under two hours — thats what we do). Personally, I find the butterfly keyboard much more comfortable to work with — I can type faster and more accurately using the larger, more stable new keys.
And finally, to be very frank, if reliability would be my primary concern in a laptop, say, if I were going on a research mission somewhere into the jungle, where my success or maybe even survival depends on a working computer, I would certainly not consider a Mac. Rather, I'd get one of these military-grade Toughbooks or something similar.
P.S. I'd still get a Mac over a PC laptop any time of the day. Its only anecdotal evidence of course, but every single of the approx. 7 (if I remember correctly) Windows laptops we bough (save for one Microsoft Surface Book) suffered a catastrophic failure within three years of purchase. Disintegrating trackpads, burned out internal power circuitry, failed displays, that kind of time. believe me, I'd rather take a 2.5% higher chance of overall failure due to a piece of cookie stuck under my keyboard
[doublepost=1542803812][/doublepost]
Benchmarks make perfect sense to me. The Vega Pro 20 should have approx 50% higher peak compute performance compared to 560X (approx. 3TFlops compared to 2TFlops), so a 30% increase in a compute benchmark is very realistic. Improvement in the 3D benchmark doesn't surprise me at all — thats HBM2 showing its incredible bandwidth. If this translates to performance in windows at all, then Vega 12 is indeed impressive, and not far off from 1060 GTX Max-Q — a card that consumes twice as much power if not more.
Whats very interesting though is the increase in the CPU benchmark he got. Luck of the draw or indeed some internal changes?
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The 5-6% is based on the only quantitative survey we have on the topic: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-pro-keyboard-failure-rate-double-older-models/
What that article says is also consistent with anecdotal reports from IT departments posted on reddit as well as with my observation over the butterfly keyboard Macs we have purchased in last 2 years (out of approx. 20 of them, a single one has developed a slight problem with keys sticking).
Please don't get me wrong. It is a fact that butterfly keyboards are more prone to certain types of failure. Its not even a point of discussion, since Apple themselves said that and offered free keyboard replacements on affected models. These keyboards are prone to dust and particle accumulation which can block and in some cases even damage the switches, and they do require more maintenance and care than the old keyboards. Which is further reinforced by the fact that there is surprising amount of people that suffer keyboard failures in a row — suggesting that this is at least in part conditioned by user behaviour and/or environment.
Still, I do not think that all this really matters. First of all, I can live with a 5% overall chance of keyboard failure. Based on industry average, there is approx. 20% chance that my laptop will fail within 3 years anyway. This doesn't add to it substantially. And should something go wrong, we are covered by warranty + extended warranty, so it can be fixed quickly (talk to your service provider, ask them to order parts first and then call you, this way the actual downtime will be under two hours — thats what we do). Personally, I find the butterfly keyboard much more comfortable to work with — I can type faster and more accurately using the larger, more stable new keys.
And finally, to be very frank, if reliability would be my primary concern in a laptop, say, if I were going on a research mission somewhere into the jungle, where my success or maybe even survival depends on a working computer, I would certainly not consider a Mac. Rather, I'd get one of these military-grade Toughbooks or something similar.
P.S. I'd still get a Mac over a PC laptop any time of the day. Its only anecdotal evidence of course, but every single of the approx. 7 (if I remember correctly) Windows laptops we bough (save for one Microsoft Surface Book) suffered a catastrophic failure within three years of purchase. Disintegrating trackpads, burned out internal power circuitry, failed displays, that kind of time. believe me, I'd rather take a 2.5% higher chance of overall failure due to a piece of cookie stuck under my keyboard
Out of curiosity, of those 7 Window's laptops, where they of similar price to the MacBook? Don't get me wrong Window laptops can fail as well.
I am more just more concerned as to how much more likely these MacBooK Pro keyboards are prone to failure vs previous generations as well as modern competitors. These MacBook's are not that old and comparatively speaking the number of reports is concerning as they only make up a small percentage of incidents vs actual incidents that actually occurred. In a 3 year period, I am worried that you have less than 50% chance of never having had one of those keyboard issues. Over 3 year+ and it is a worrying outlook as then you are looking at $800 replacements. Most keyboard issues across the board are the result of either user accident or a manufacturing defects but that doesn't appear to be the case on the butterfly keyboards which is more of a design defect, which is what is more worrying.
So yes any product can go wrong, but it seems there is a design issue which makes this keyboard more prone to failure. It is a bit like if we take the Note 7 battery exploding issue, now battery explosions happen to pretty much most modern smartphones (it is rare and requires certain conditions to happen). The issue with Samsung's was not that it could explode but that the design made it more likely to occur (it would still affect <1% of users and the number of reports were very small).
I wish it was only the keyboard that was the issue, it seems to suffer from KP's and the TouchBar is hit and miss for most. Longevity wise, it seems poor value for money. In terms of performance, form factor and design it appears great value for money.
Comparable to 13" MBP, yes, and also with similar internal configurations. It was Dells, Lenovos and Microsoft.
Based on the digitaltrends data, twice as likely. But it indeed seems like 2018 models see much less key issues compared to earlier ones. Membrane might just be working. Of course, since now people are aware of butterly inherent weakness, they will be keeping a much keener eye. A keyboard failure in 2014 would be just filed under "oh, my Mac is broken, well, I'll get it repaired". Keyboard failure these days is "OMG APPLE KEYBOARDGATE"
I completely agree. Then again, I would argue that no computer is good value for money when you look at it from the longevity perspective. There are reasons why computers are generally written down as one time losses in accounting and not depreciated
I agree with this. I had a 2016 MacBook Pro and it seemed particles were visible and sneaking under the keys all the time, even though I am extremely careful. On my 2018 MacBook Pro, the keyboard is pristine after what, 2 months of use? I will also say, the limited travel keyboard takes getting used to, to be sure. I was not a fan at the beginning. I can understand people moving to it, and hating it. But now, having stuck with it, my typing and accuracy is SO much better - it's like the laptop equivalent of "touch typing" - I can type so fast because I barely have to touch the keys at all. I really struggle now when I use my wife's Dell, the key travel is so far I am not used to it and I am much slower in typing. I suspect this technology is not going away because IMHO the membrane does fix the issues, and it's working. Unless a problem arises where the 2018 keyboards are breaking a lot or something, it is what it is - I might humbly suggest really giving it a chance, you may grow to like it.
People had lower expectations is why. I mean I was hoping it competed better with the GTX 1050/TI Max-Q personally but meh, it has enough improvement over the 560X to make it an okay upgrade. MacOS and keeping it all under a lower TDP than competitors was always going to be a bottle neck.