Target Working on QR Code Mobile Wallet as Apple Pay Holdout Continues

[jonatron]

As I said before, the whole mobile payment is mess. You get Apple Pay which only works with iPhone, you get Samsung Pay which only works with Samsung phones, you get Android pay which works with NFC enabled Android phones, you get current C, Surtap in Canada.

There are too much limitation and so many craps. None of them including Apple Pay will take off. All those mobile payment crap do not make wallet irreverent and just to much of chaos.

I still believe industry need come together to develop a unified solution for mobile payment that works with all NFC enabled phone regardless iPhone, Android, WP or BlackBerry. Otherwise, I do not see how mobile Payment can take off anytime.

Err that already exists and is called NFC Tokenisation?? This is just simply contactless payments. If the retailer supports contactless payments then Apple Pay or Android Pay is supported. In the UK or the US, if a retailer accepts contactless payments and display the wave symbol then they take Apple Pay. It's not something that's enabled per retailer. So basically Apple, Google and Samsung are doing it right. Target are the ones going off and setting up a proprietary system.

You are also some way off the mark with your comments. There is a standard that is being rolled out across the globe and it is wildly successful and Apple Pay is just a small contributor to that. All that is happening here is that some US retailers are choosing to go away from the standard. As time will tell, these guys will ultimately be supporting Apple Pay as consumer demand will get them to change their minds. That doesnt mean they need to get rid of their proprietary systems, they just need to open up their choices of payment, which will happen.

 

[geta]

Im surprised to see so many people using ApplePay and willing to boycott shops that not excepting it.

Around here, i don’t see many using ApplePay or other payment option like Android Pay, Samsung Pay, or QR codes (unless its a QR coupon codes), if already its more common to see people scanning their ‘chip’d credit cards’.

Although the NFC option looks the best option at the moment, till the industry will come up with one single solution, it will never really adopt fully.

I will start thinking using it the day i can use single payment everywhere, and fill 100% safe doing so.

 

[cwwilson]

All I know is, my Visa works pretty much anywhere and it's much easier to swipe and sign than it is to mess around with all these "mobile wallets" and now each retailer wants their own app and payment system... No thanks.

Look, I want to like Apple Pay, I really do. But it's every outer week we see another chain rejecting AP and most of the ones I shop at don't accept it either.

Apple Pay will never take off because there is nothing to gain by the merchants using it. What big box retailers and the like want is direct access to customer banking and the ability to track their buying habits so they can sell the information off to a third party for a cut of some nice action. They don't want Apple's security...instead they want all the information for themselves and as they say, information is power.

What you guys fail to understand is that we are the vocal minority. We aren't their targeted demographic. The mindless droves of sheep out there are and they will go whatever direction their favorite stores tell them to go.

 

[jonatron]

All I know is, my Visa works pretty much anywhere and it's much easier to swipe and sign than it is to mess around with all these "mobile wallets" and now each retailer wants their own app and payment system... No thanks.

Look, I want to like Apple Pay, I really do. But it's every outer week we see another chain rejecting AP and most of the ones I shop at don't accept it either.

Apple Pay will never take off because there is nothing to gain by the merchants using it. What big box retailers and the like want is direct access to customer banking and the ability to track their buying habits so they can sell the information off to a third party for a cut of some nice action. They don't want Apple's security...instead they want all the information for themselves and as they say, information is power.

What you guys fail to understand is that we are the vocal minority. We aren't their targeted demographic. The mindless droves of sheep out there are and they will go whatever direction their favorite stores tell them to go.

Nonsense. This is a very narrow minded view of whats going on here. What people to fail to realise is that contactless payments are taking over the globe and are wildly successfully in huge markets like China, Europe and Australia. Unfortunately the US has a super archaic method of payment using swipe and sign which is so insecure it begs belief as to why it is still in use. Probably as you say 'it is far easier to use that any other payment method' but this is probably why the US is so far behind as people get upset as soon as anyone tries to take away the beloved swipe and sign.

I think in 12-18 months you will have a very different opinion of what's going here. The real problem here is that Apple is way ahead of the US payments market. Their objectives here are more in line with the rest of their main markets outside of the US. Domestically they are trying to drag the payments market into the 21st century, but consumers and retailers are kicking, screaming and throwing the toys out of the pram along the way.

 

[bkaus]

All I know is, my Visa works pretty much anywhere and it's much easier to swipe and sign than it is to mess around with all these "mobile wallets" and now each retailer wants their own app and payment system... No thanks.

Look, I want to like Apple Pay, I really do. But it's every outer week we see another chain rejecting AP and most of the ones I shop at don't accept it either.

Apple Pay will never take off because there is nothing to gain by the merchants using it. What big box retailers and the like want is direct access to customer banking and the ability to track their buying habits so they can sell the information off to a third party for a cut of some nice action. They don't want Apple's security...instead they want all the information for themselves and as they say, information is power.

What you guys fail to understand is that we are the vocal minority. We aren't their targeted demographic. The mindless droves of sheep out there are and they will go whatever direction their favorite stores tell them to go.

The thing is, as a small business owner, I want NFC or any tokenization system. I don't want the liability of the current system. I don't want card numbers on file. I don't have my credit card machine integrated with my records system. I don't want a place for employees to access customers numbers. I don't want to risk hackers getting the card info. NFC solves this for me.

Big retailers are willing to take the risk because they want the data.

Does it change my shopping, yes. I spent $230 at Best Buy yesterday instead of Target because of Apple Pay. The two stores are 1/2 mile apart. Would I have driven 3 miles, no. But 1/2 mile, yes.

Same for whole foods. I started shopping there to test Apple Pay. Found their milk was cheaper (believe it or not) than my other grocery store. As I looked more I found other good deals. My local grocery is working on a mobile wallet QR system instead. So they just lost 1/2 my biz. I wouldn't have stepped into WF if not for apple pay.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I don't recall Apple ever saying they wanted to prevent merchants from tracking us. Only that they didn't want merchants to store the real account number.

Besides, it would be incredibly hypocritical to say that merchants shouldn't get that info, when Apple themselves track our iTunes and Apple Store purchases, information which they not only use for themselves, but to sell iAd space.



Transaction cryptograms (think of them as dynamic CVV2 codes) surrounding a particular purchase are generated each time, but the account token stays the same. (They'd run out of numbers if the token changed each time, and you'd also have no way to get a refund.)



Or if the credit card provider sells the retailer information on your purchases, by matching the token with your real account. Turns out that many store cards are provided by a company that intends to do something like this.

Of course, the banks themselves know who you are. Often, targeted coupons are provided by companies associated with the banks. If you use one of those coupons, the store has to pay the card issuing bank a fee.

I was going to post something critical of this but then realized that the 'local grocery' IS tracking me. I have a joint credit card, and I have noticed that I'm getting POS coupons that have nothing to do with what I personally purchase. I'm thinking that both cards are being lumped together (makes sense) and the local grocery coupon provider is blowing out 'helpful' coupons based on both of our purchases, to both of us. And I use Apple Pay exclusively there.

Tangential development: It should be noted that this 'New And Improved Omnibus Spending Bill' that has peristaltically moved through the backrooms of Congress drastically eliminates much of the privacy protections of our data and lives in general.

Obama is expected to sign this disgusting piece of feces, because, 'It's The Best Deal We Can Get', and doesn't defund 'Obamacare' completely. Yet. I expect things will get so much worse in the next five to nine years. 'We the people' should be able to spy on our government. A government with secrets is not a Democratic government that represents its people.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Nonsense. This is a very narrow minded view of whats going on here. What people to fail to realise is that contactless payments are taking over the globe and are wildly successfully in huge markets like China, Europe and Australia. Unfortunately the US has a super archaic method of payment using swipe and sign which is so insecure it begs belief as to why it is still in use. Probably as you say 'it is far easier to use that any other payment method' but this is probably why the US is so far behind as people get upset as soon as anyone tries to take away the beloved swipe and sign.

I think in 12-18 months you will have a very different opinion of what's going here. The real problem here is that Apple is way ahead of the US payments market. Their objectives here are more in line with the rest of their main markets outside of the US. Domestically they are trying to drag the payments market into the 21st century, but consumers and retailers are kicking, screaming and throwing the toys out of the pram along the way.

And besides, and related to that, is that the 'Chip And Sign' process has swept the business scene in the past year. From a few cards having chips, almost all have them now. From a few retailers using the chips, now most do. It might have been done through some law or other requirement, but it's amazing how the sloth banking companies, and retailers, can move at nearly a brisk walk when they are required to do it.

Apple Pay, in my mind, is so simple, and so easy (once I got iTouch working) that it's like falling off a stool.

The only thing holding it back from ubiquity is perhaps fees and Apple's intransigence...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I took lots of those math course. Even the really hard kind with lots of squiggles and shapes, yes?

And guess what I found out? There is actually no number shortage isn't that great? If you run out of numbers you can make even more and it doesn't cost anything!

I guess you're right about not being able to do returns though. It sucks that people that pay cash can't do returns since there's no way to track them.

Hey, I know what! What if every time you buy something, you get a piece of paper that proves you bought the thing at that store? That way you could do returns, even with cash!

AND have some stores actually email the receipt to you, AND keep a copy of your transactions in their computers.

Oh, wait...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I'm really tempted to do my shopping. Fill the cart to the gills. Roll up to the cashier. Ask if they take Apple Pay. When they say no....walk out and leave the cart sitting there.

This is all about data collections.

And being a butt head.

It's not the cashier's fault that their employer doesn't do Apple Pay. Have a heart, and THINK...

On the way out, after paying in pennies (I've seen that done BTW), tell the manager that you would have taken no time at all with Apple Pay...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

The thing is, as a small business owner, I want NFC or any tokenization system. I don't want the liability of the current system. I don't want card numbers on file. I don't have my credit card machine integrated with my records system. I don't want a place for employees to access customers numbers. I don't want to risk hackers getting the card info. NFC solves this for me.

But as a small business owner, you will always be left holding the bag if something goes wrong in the approval process.

When I had my business, I was really humored by the merchant agreement. If THEY process a bad card, and it bounces into orbit around Pluto, why the heck am I left holding the bag? THEY processed the damn card, THEY approved it, THEY should be left holding the flaming bag of poo THEY approved!

 

[JimmyHook]

True. And yet...

... many people here have said that having QR codes on their iOS device (for e.g. boarding passes and concert tickets), is quite useful, and have not had much difficulty with them.

QR code = instant fail. If you want me to scan a QR code on my phone, but deny MY CONSUMER DESIRE to use Apple Pay, then boycott. Listen to your customers, they don't want QR codes.

 

[nsayer]

But as a small business owner, you will always be left holding the bag if something goes wrong in the approval process.

When I had my business, I was really humored by the merchant agreement. If THEY process a bad card, and it bounces into orbit around Pluto, why the heck am I left holding the bag? THEY processed the damn card, THEY approved it, THEY should be left holding the flaming bag of poo THEY approved!

Most of the fraud is cloned mag-stripe or card-not-present (e-commerce) transactions. Most of that sort of fraud works because the banks can't tell the difference between that and the use of the legitimate card. The move to EMV allows them to tell the difference. I believe it is still the case that if a physical EMV card is stolen and used that the merchant will not be liable if the transaction is approved (the bank will eat it unless the cardholder is found negligent), but if a cloned mag-stripe swipe transaction for an EMV card goes through, then the merchant will have to eat it, because if the merchant had used EMV, it would have failed (because the bank would have rejected the swipe and told them to use EMV approval instead). In localities with chip-and-PIN, the liability for fraud is rather squarely on the cardholder (except for card-not-present), as they're expected to keep the PIN secure. This caused some trouble a few years ago when some hackers managed a monkey-in-the-middle attack that allowed the PIN to be bypassed with stolen cards. It took some time before the banks actually believed it possible that the fraud occurred without a compromised PIN.

 

[tmiw]

What people to fail to realise is that contactless payments are taking over the globe and are wildly successfully in huge markets like China, Europe and Australia.

All well and good, but contactless was invented to handle a pain point in the current shopping paradigm. The US was late enough to the party, however, that the technology is now there for us to adopt a different paradigm altogether. Why have traditional checkout lanes when people can scan and bag their items with their phones as they shop? Why not let people pay for their shopping with their phone without having to get an employee involved or using something as frustrating as the self-checkout machine? It doesn't hurt that this sort of thing could reduce a retailer's costs far more than anything like CurrentC could; Walmart for instance has 1.4 million employees in the US alone and cutting half of those would save them billions a year.

Frankly I see most major retailers not bothering with NFC at all, at least in the short to medium term. Long term, if they can get people using their own apps, it wouldn't be a huge jump to move towards something like what I described.

 

[jonatron]

All well and good, but contactless was invented to handle a pain point in the current shopping paradigm. The US was late enough to the party, however, that the technology is now there for us to adopt a different paradigm altogether. Why have traditional checkout lanes when people can scan and bag their items with their phones as they shop? Why not let people pay for their shopping with their phone without having to get an employee involved or using something as frustrating as the self-checkout machine? It doesn't hurt that this sort of thing could reduce a retailer's costs far more than anything like CurrentC could; Walmart for instance has 1.4 million employees in the US alone and cutting half of those would save them billions a year.

Frankly I see most major retailers not bothering with NFC at all, at least in the short to medium term. Long term, if they can get people using their own apps, it wouldn't be a huge jump to move towards something like what I described.

What you say here is absolutely correct (except the last paragraph) but you are missing the point. The future of payments is about choice and using whatever payment system you should choose. No-one is opposed to the system Target are introducing, it is the fact they have decided to restrict their payment options here and that is why everyone is so upset. Why would anybody solely want Apple Pay to be available? That would just be crazy. I want to see Samsung, Android Apple Pay, Current C or whatever all available and I believe that soon you will. Customers want to be able to pay however they want and if that's Current C then fair enough. However, I want to use Apple Pay so chalk me up as an unhappy customer. Eventually, retailers will see sense and listen to what their customers are demanding.

 

[nsayer]

All well and good, but contactless was invented to handle a pain point in the current shopping paradigm. The US was late enough to the party, however, that the technology is now there for us to adopt a different paradigm altogether. Why have traditional checkout lanes when people can scan and bag their items with their phones as they shop? Why not let people pay for their shopping with their phone without having to get an employee involved or using something as frustrating as the self-checkout machine? It doesn't hurt that this sort of thing could reduce a retailer's costs far more than anything like CurrentC could; Walmart for instance has 1.4 million employees in the US alone and cutting half of those would save them billions a year.

Frankly I see most major retailers not bothering with NFC at all, at least in the short to medium term. Long term, if they can get people using their own apps, it wouldn't be a huge jump to move towards something like what I described.

Not too many years ago, there was an ad on TV for IBM. The ad starts with an obvious parody criminal (costume party mask, black and white striped shirt) walking into a store. He goes up and down the aisles pocketing stuff. Then he walks out the door, but before he makes it, he's stopped by a security guard. "Excuse me, sir." and then a pregnant pause, and then, "You forgot your receipt."

The idea of the ad is that with NFC tags on the merchandise and in the "crook's" credit card, the transaction could be done seamlessly as he walks out.

 

[dontwalkhand]

Doesn't anyone use cash anymore? Can't get more anonymous than that.

And being a butt head.

It's not the cashier's fault that their employer doesn't do Apple Pay. Have a heart, and THINK...

On the way out, after paying in pennies (I've seen that done BTW), tell the manager that you would have taken no time at all with Apple Pay...

as bad as it sounds there is a fish and chips place that is cash only, and I go out of my way to pay them in coins each and every time, as the owner is usually right there. I tell them, you know if you took my card I wouldn't do this. Thinking about gifting them a Square reader for Christmas. Even if I had cash already on me, I would go to the bank and get coins changed for it just to 'punish' the cash only stores.

 

[TheRemix18]

As long as I can just get by with just having my phone and not having to carrying my wallet with me, I welcome all mobile payments. If this happens, we have almost all of the big retailers covered (Target, Walmart, BBY, Staples, Walgreens and other regional chains like Meijers, Jewel-Osco, etc).

 

[tmiw]

What you say here is absolutely correct (except the last paragraph) but you are missing the point. The future of payments is about choice and using whatever payment system you should choose. No-one is opposed to the system Target are introducing, it is the fact they have decided to restrict their payment options here and that is why everyone is so upset. Why would anybody solely want Apple Pay to be available? That would just be crazy. I want to see Samsung, Android Apple Pay, Current C or whatever all available and I believe that soon you will. Customers want to be able to pay however they want and if that's Current C then fair enough. However, I want to use Apple Pay so chalk me up as an unhappy customer. Eventually, retailers will see sense and listen to what their customers are demanding.

Line-free checkout wouldn't preclude NFC acceptance at the few checkstands that remain. However, as I mentioned before, NFC isn't that much faster vs. a properly optimized chip terminal for small transactions. And by the time line-free checkout became common, it's possible that the time to run the chip simply won't be a big deal either way--especially if the app implementation allows scanning of "restricted" products (alcohol, tobacco, etc.) anyway and requires employee intervention only for ID verification.

Not too many years ago, there was an ad on TV for IBM. The ad starts with an obvious parody criminal (costume party mask, black and white striped shirt) walking into a store. He goes up and down the aisles pocketing stuff. Then he walks out the door, but before he makes it, he's stopped by a security guard. "Excuse me, sir." and then a pregnant pause, and then, "You forgot your receipt."

The idea of the ad is that with NFC tags on the merchandise and in the "crook's" credit card, the transaction could be done seamlessly as he walks out.

Something RFID based is definitely not outside the realm of possibility either. My employer did an evaluation of RFID/NFC for a potential product a year or so ago and we found that RFID tags could be obtained for a few cents per tag in very large quantities. The price would likely be lower without some of the requirements that we put on the tags, meaning that it's very possible to include them in every product on the shelves without raising prices or lowering profits much.

That said, stores wouldn't be able to rely on the NFC chip having a public API (unless Apple includes one in a future iOS release) so there'd need to be some sort of RFID reader in the basket/cart that wirelessly links to the phone somehow.

 

[5105973]

So this is all about tracking what you buy.

lol, they don't sell anything very exciting so I don't mind if they track sock, underwear, kid clothes, cheap shoes purchases. That's pretty much all we buy from them. What I do mind is they can't secure our purchase information. It's so aggravating that they don't want to accept Apple Pay.

 

[jbekin800]

Target.com accepts apple pay.

Target's red card is a "tracking" card that's hard to beat. You get 5% off EVERYTHING (other than gift cards) which is a nice tradeoff for tracking you. so wheter they do apple pay is irrelevant.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

as bad as it sounds there is a fish and chips place that is cash only, and I go out of my way to pay them in coins each and every time, as the owner is usually right there. I tell them, you know if you took my card I wouldn't do this. Thinking about gifting them a Square reader for Christmas. Even if I had cash already on me, I would go to the bank and get coins changed for it just to 'punish' the cash only stores.

That is still kind of rude, but I totally understand the motive.

There was a store in the university town I lived in that required cash for all beer purchases on home game days, for some really arcane reason I'm sure, and the frat boys would go to the store next door and change all of their paper cash into coins, and then go next door to buy their beer kegs and multiple cases. Yes, people would arrive with pillow cases full of coins, and sit and count them out at the register, one-by-one, and sometimes they would say they 'just miscounted', and start all over again.

The message was received LOUD AND CLEAR...

BTW, I was behind an octogenarian at the local grocery that was beside a nursing home that also did assisted living type stuff for people that just needed someone to watch for them. This lady was at the register just in front of me, paying for something, can't remember what, and the moment we all dreaded happened: THE CHANGE PURSE CAME OUT!!!

She stood there and counted out something close to eight dollars. In coins. I offered to pay for her goods, and she refused...

But anyway. I'll be there soon enough... Hoisting the coin purse and crushing the dreams of a fast checkout... I miscounted!

EDIT: What if that owner is a Limbaugh/Jones/Beck/Trump fan and delights in causing you to pay in coins? I can see that happening with some people. Evil is, evil...

 

[kdarling]

(re: security) I wouldn't even say 100%, since you still have those idiots that use checks.

Apparently checks are the least likely to be fraudulent these days. In 2013, the Feds reported:

.06% - CC fraud rate
.02% - ATM fraud rate
.005% - check fraud rate

Perhaps it's because merchants usually require photo ID for a check, and can write down a driver's license number.

And guess what I found out? There is actually no number shortage isn't that great? If you run out of numbers you can make even more and it doesn't cost anything!

Cute, but card account numbers have limits.

The usual account number is 16 digits, the first 6 of which determine the bank/card type, and another is a check digit. That normally leaves 9 digits or one billion numbers. Visa alone handles about 200 million transactions a day. Even spread out over many card types, tokens would have to rollover within weeks.

A rolling token also complicates provisioning, requiring out-of-band communications to the device. Google Wallet had that situation for a while. It would pre-provision authentication tokens, but then required online comms to get more.

Most importantly, it doesn't buy anything. Again, the static account tokens are meaningless without the REAL secret token, the provisioned crypto key used to create per-transaction authentication values to accompany the account token.

Cheers!

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Apparently checks are the least likely to be fraudulent these days. In 2013, the Feds reported:

.06% - CC fraud rate
.02% - ATM fraud rate
.005% - check fraud rate

Perhaps it's because merchants usually require photo ID for a check, and can write down a driver's license number.

Or because people that use checks are getting tired of the gnashing of the teeth of those behind them? I groaned once, perhaps a little too loud. But the guy behind me sighed and moved to another lane. I was stuck, with hate looks. Whatever. I laughed later about it...

 

[bigchrisfgb]

Apple should just refuse any new apps or updates which enable this sort of feature.

They don't offer tokenisation, and give direct access to someone's bank account details instead of just card details which can be changed more easily.

In saying this Google should also refuse these apps on Android, but with Google's open source and tha ability to load content into Android without the Play store it would be hard for them to do that. Still though they shouldn't support it directly.

 

[0007776]

Why would I use this over a credit card? Apple Pay was worth setting up because it works at multiple stores. I'd really prefer not giving out credit card info to every store to have on file.