Tesla Unveils $35,000 Model 3 Electric Car, Shipping Late 2017

[theluggage]

Then again, the Mini enjoys the results of that quirky British engineering that also gave us the electric short as standard equipment.

The current "Mini" is from that well-known cradle of Britishness, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (or BMW as they are more commonly known) although they do build many of them in the UK. Apart from the trademark (bought and sold) and some visual styling* (fading with each new model) they have little to do with the classic Mini which did, indeed, feature the legendary "engineering" prowess of British Leyland.

(*including the oversized, centre-mounted speedo)

 

[smacrumon]

What difference does it make? It's not the messenger but the message. My sources,as I said in my post, are direct from Tesla's website, with the exception of Musk's comment on anticipated delivered pricing, BTW. I can't help that you don't like what Tesla says because it disagrees with your viewpoint. I prefer to look at the facts and situation as it is, not as I would like it to be.

You keep focusing on orders, but an order is not a delivered product and the fact remains it will be a number of years before Tesla satisfies those orders, despite your incorrect assertion of a 500k production capacity.

300K cars is insignificant in terms of worldwide deliveries, so not "Everyone wants a Tesla Model 3." BMW sold 400K 3 series last year in Germany alone, but not everyone wants a 3 series BMW, yet by your metric you would say they do.

Now, this is what 325K Tesla Model 3 preorders looks like.

 

[jlc1978]

If your comments are from the Tesla website, please post the direct link supporting your claim. Your claims have been spurious and not accurate, so please provide direct links and a reference so that it can be verified. Can you please do that?

Go google the things I said and it should take you to the relevant sections of the Gigafactory, for example, or read through their website as I did. If that is too much trouble or you are afraid of unpleasant facts feel free not to. Your call.

Th facts are that Tesla is looking at a capacity of around 80K Model 3's to start, and are planning too ramp up production overtime. Given the supply chain problems that plagued the other model's launches it is not unreasonable to assume similar ones will impact the Model 3, and another bottleneck to higher production will be the battery output form the GigaFcatory which is not expected to be at full capacity until 2020 (as per Tesla's website. You can look it up)

Your occupation does not need to be disclosed. It is important to note however that there are paid professionals that come to forums like these to put into doubt facts and spin false stories. Some of your comments are a giveaway.

I wish someone would pay me to post. Methinks thou dost protest too much. Perhaps you are astroturffing based on your constant hype and refusal to accept facts straight from Tesla?

Now, correcting more of your inaccurate statements:

You said "BMW sold 400K 3 series last year in Germany alone" - completely FALSE.

What is correct is that in 2015, across Europe, where Germany is located, there were only 143,023 sales of BMW 3 series gas guzzlers. - http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series/

Yes, I misread the data I was using from BMW and that was worldwide sales, not Germany, which still dwarfs what Tesla plans to sell per year in the same class, so I guess everyone wants a 3 series per your logic. Still 143K 3 series in Germany alone is nearly double what Tesal expects to manufacture for worldwide sale in a year.

Please be accurate and provide sources or your comments or your account maybe suspended by the MacRumors mods. They don't tolerate these kind of dishonest postings especially where there aren't any sources.

I'll let the mods decide who to suspend and not suspend. You have not, BTW, backed up you claim that Tesla's factory has a current manufacturing capacity of 500k Tesla's.

And friend, have a watch the Tesla launch, it contains all the answers to your questions in just a short 20 minutes:

Instead of media hype read what they post on their website.
[doublepost=1460048893][/doublepost]

Now, this is what 325K Tesla Model 3 preorders looks like.

Call me when they actually sell 325K Model 3's. I'm happy to wait until 2020.

 

[Dmunjal]

You have not, BTW, backed up you claim that Tesla's factory has a current manufacturing capacity of 500k Tesla's.

I don't think it's fair to compare Tesla to BMW or Mercedes in manufacturing when Tesla has only been producing in volume for a few years.

Here's the quote about the 500k capacity.

https://www.teslamotors.com/factory

"Prior to Tesla, the facility was home to General Motors and Toyota’s New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc (NUMMI) from 1984 until the partnership ended in 2009. At its height under NUMMI, the plant produced 500,000 cars per year."[/size][/color]

 

[jlc1978]

The current "Mini" is from that well-known cradle of Britishness, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (or BMW as they are more commonly known) although they do build many of them in the UK. Apart from the trademark (bought and sold) and some visual styling* (fading with each new model) they have little to do with the classic Mini which did, indeed, feature the legendary "engineering" prowess of British Leyland.

(*including the oversized, centre-mounted speedo)

Like the joke goes:
British lady asked about dog's name: "His name is BMW."
Gentleman asking "That's an unusual name"
Lady, "Yes, we used to call him Rover"
[doublepost=1460049478][/doublepost]

I don't think it's fair to compare Tesla to BMW or Mercedes in manufacturing when Tesla has only been producing in volume for a few years.

Here's the quote about the 500k capacity.

https://www.teslamotors.com/factory

"Prior to Tesla, the facility was home to General Motors and Toyota’s New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc (NUMMI) from 1984 until the partnership ended in 2009. At its height under NUMMI, the plant produced 500,000 cars per year."[/size][/color]

500K Toyata/GM vehicles does not translate to 500K Tesla's; even Tesla admits that.

 

[diamond.g]

In Silicon Valley, Tesla owners are more like the "new" BMW owners. You know, the ones that used to differentiate a BMW from a porcupine. Then again, I'd say the same for the Google self-driving cars.
[doublepost=1459798828][/doublepost]

I hope they do better than in the past. My experience in the SF Bay Area is that it usually takes longer than 30 minutes to just get hooked up to a Supercharger. Overcrowding, locals using Superchargers, too many people leaving their cars hooked up too long (see previous "porcupine" reference), and ICE-cars parked in spots where they shouldn't be has sometimes made me just keep going. I've seen improvements (for instance Gilroy has been expanded, previously I could get what I needed and leave before a spot became available), but I think it's going to need a lot more work, especially with 250,000 new users.

Yeah I don't understand why the other DCFC methods are not placed near SC's to capture the overflow during busy times.

Or, Tesla can move the higher profit orders to the front of the line. I have no idea what they will do; I just find it interesting that some people assumed because they ordered before someone else they will get their car first when Tesla specifically stated they need not fufill based on when the order a deposit was received.
[doublepost=1459802294][/doublepost]
You post just shows the issue with EVs: they are not yet as useful as an ICE and that limits their appeal. You can say just rent a car when you need range but that adds to the TOC of an EV and feeds the perception that they are not a viable replacement for an ICE as a primary vehicle.

They have said that it is a spot in line for getting invited to configure a car. Depending on what you order will actually cement your place in the build process. The more you order the sooner you get your vehicle built. They typically build the pricier vehicles first in order to maximize profit, plus fixing of issues.
The X is having issues with the FWD's and so rollout is slow. Notice how the 3 doesn't have that kind of fancy tech?
The other interesting thing about the ASP is would seems to neatly be the price of AWD, APCF, and likely SC.

 

[smacrumon]

Go gale the things I said and it should take you to the relevant sections of the Gigafactory, for example, or read through their website as I did. If that is too much trouble or you are afraid of unpleasant facts feel free not to. Your call.

Th facts are that Tesal is looking at a capacity of around 80K Model 3's to start, and are planning too ramp up production overtime. Given the supply chain problems that plagued the other model's launches it is not unreasonable to assume similar ones will impact the Model 3, and another rnbottleneck to higher production will be the battery output form the GigaFcatory which is not expected to be at full capacity until 2020 (a super Tesla's website. You can look it up)



I wish someone would pay me to post. Perhaps you are astroturffing based on your constant hype and refusal to accept facts straight from Tesla?




Yes, I misread the data I was using from BMW and that was worldwide sales, not Germany, which still dwarfs what Tesla plans to sell per year in the same class, so I guess everyone wants a 3 series per your logic. Still 143K 3 series in Germany alone is nearly double what Tesal expects to manufacture for worldwide sale in a year.



I'll let the mods decide who to suspend and not suspend. You have not, BTW, backed up you claim that Tesla's factory has a current manufacturing capacity of 500k Tesla's.



Instead of media hype read what they post on their website.
[doublepost=1460048893][/doublepost]

Call me when they actually sell 325K Model 3's. I'm happy to wait until 2020.

Unlike some, no astroturfing this end, just a genuine convert to EV and Tesla. Nice try at back tracking on your BMW figures. Can't provide direct links, can't provide paragraph references, then don't waste our time please. Bye, Bye.

 

[theluggage]

Now, correcting more of your inaccurate statements: You said "BMW sold 400K 3 series last year in Germany alone" - completely FALSE.

Correct - although the site you cited does say that BMW sold 743k cars of all models in Europe, and they've sold getting on for 300k 3 series per year in previous years - and its still only Europe - so jlc1978's main point is still valid even if the figures were a bit sexed-up - 300k Tesla orders spread across a couple of years (and there will be a drop-out rate) is not exceptional and doesn't mean "everybody wants one".

 

[diamond.g]

Correct - although the site you cited does say that BMW sold 743k cars of all models in Europe, and they've sold getting on for 300k 3 series per year in previous years - and its still only Europe - so jlc1978's main point is still valid even if the figures were a bit sexed-up - 300k Tesla orders spread across a couple of years (and there will be a drop-out rate) is not exceptional and doesn't mean "everybody wants one".

But on the other hand it does prove that there is some sort of demand for a long range EV that is "affordable". Otherwise GM wouldn't be making the Bolt right?

 

[jlc1978]

But on the other hand it does prove that there is some sort of demand for a long range EV that is "affordable". Otherwise GM wouldn't be making the Bolt right?

True. I think there is a demand for an affordable EV with a decent range / recharge options on trips. Tesla is at the front of the market right now; but unless they scale up rapidly the risk losing out to GM et. al. as they introduce and manufacturer car while Tesla is trying to ramp up production. GM could capture a number of the Tesla preorders as they get tired of waiting for a car; especially if Tesla has production delays early on in the manufacturing phase.

 

[smacrumon]

Correct - although the site you cited does say that BMW sold 743k cars of all models in Europe, and they've sold getting on for 300k 3 series per year in previous years - and its still only Europe - so jlc1978's main point is still valid even if the figures were a bit sexed-up - 300k Tesla orders spread across a couple of years (and there will be a drop-out rate) is not exceptional and doesn't mean "everybody wants one".

BMW 3 Series peaked in Europe in 2002 at 350,606. Fast forward to 2015, spiralling downward to less than half 13 years earlier to 143,023.

The user, jlc1978, refuses to provide links and references, and was speaking specifically about “BMW sold 400K 3 series last year in Germany alone” which has been discredited as being entirely false.
http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series/

The fact that the user refuses to edit their incorrect post at #563 is telling.

 

[diamond.g]

True. I think there is a demand for an affordable EV with a decent range / recharge options on trips. Tesla is at the front of the market right now; but unless they scale up rapidly the risk losing out to GM et. al. as they introduce and manufacturer car while Tesla is trying to ramp up production. GM could capture a number of the Tesla preorders as they get tired of waiting for a car; especially if Tesla has production delays early on in the manufacturing phase.

I think GM's biggest screw up in the whole thing (other than not making a 'sexy' hatchback) is their utter lack of committing to improving the charging infrastructure. Tesla even offers access to the SC network, you just have to pay up front per car to help with build out. No one has taken them up on the offer. From my understanding there are not that many SAE CCS Chargers out in the wild (fast charging).

 

[jlc1978]

BMW 3 Series peaked in Europe in 2002 at 350,606. Fast forward to 2015, spiralling downward to less than half 13 years earlier to 143,023.

Of course they are down since the 1 and 4 models were introduced in the interim, which cannabalized 3 series sales.

Of course, overall it's a different story for BMW:

BMW Group achieves record global sales for the fifth consecutive year

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/...d-global-sales-for-the-fifth-consecutive-year

So BMW is doing OK.
[doublepost=1460051957][/doublepost]

I think GM's biggest screw up in the whole thing (other than not making a 'sexy' hatchback) is their utter lack of committing to improving the charging infrastructure. Tesla even offers access to the SC network, you just have to pay up front per car to help with build out. No one has taken them up on the offer. From my understanding there are not that many SAE CCS Chargers out in the wild (fast charging).

Yes, the lack of charging options are severely limiting EV popularity. It's probably a bit of the chicken and egg problem were lack of chargers lead to lack of demand for cars and lack of cars lead for lack of demand to build out charging capacity. I think, as more manufacturers build cars that use an SAE spec charger you'll see more of a buildout.

 

[diamond.g]

Of course they are down since the 1 and 4 models were introduced in the interim, which cannabalized 3 series sales.

Of course, overall it's a different story for BMW:

BMW Group achieves record global sales for the fifth consecutive year

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/...d-global-sales-for-the-fifth-consecutive-year

So BMW is doing OK.
[doublepost=1460051957][/doublepost]

Yes, the lack of charging options are severely limiting EV popularity. It's probably a bit of the chicken and egg problem were lack of chargers lead to lack of demand for cars and lack of cars lead for lack of demand to build out charging capacity. I think, as more manufacturers build cars that use an SAE spec charger you'll see more of a buildout.

The design decision on the plugs is baffling. So instead of specing the normal J1772 plug to handle DC charging originally they came up with a separate connection (the bottom two pins). Tesla thought it was dumb (well that and the initial version charged slow) so they came up with their own connector (which is electrically the same as J1772). So now you can get a car, say like the Volt and it has no way of DC quick charging because the extra pins aren't included.

 

[jlc1978]

The design decision on the plugs is baffling. So instead of specing the normal J1772 plug to handle DC charging originally they came up with a separate connection (the bottom two pins). Tesla thought it was dumb (well that and the initial version charged slow) so they came up with their own connector (which is electrically the same as J1772). So now you can get a car, say like the Volt and it has no way of DC quick charging because the extra pins aren't included.

An industry specification is a way for a bunch of people to go hold meetings in interesting places and build an elephant when a mouse is needed so you can justify your time, expense and participation; at least that has been my experience working on them. Everyone wants their own special idea included so you wind up with design by committee. Then it gets sent out for technical review which adds a whole nother layer of junk on it; or kills it because so many comments come back that it would be authentic technical gibberish.

 

[diamond.g]

An industry specification is a way for a bunch of people to go hold meetings in interesting places and build an elephant when a mouse is needed so you can justify your time, expense and participation; at least that has been my experience working on them. Everyone wants their own special idea included so you wind up with design by committee. Then it gets sent out for technical review which adds a whole nother layer of junk on it; or kills it because so many comments come back that it would be authentic technical gibberish.

Yeah pretty much why Tesla went with their own plug. Shoot even the/some Japanese manufacturers went with chademo instead of waiting.

 

[prowlmedia]

Nice car for the price but I'm going to skip the first gen.

The Roadster was 1st Gen. This is 3rd.

 

[Julien]

The Roadster was 1st Gen. This is 3rd.

Generations are retaining to a specific model. Also the Model ☰ is Tesla's 4th model (Roadster, Model S. and Model X).

 

[Sonmi451]

The bolt might sell a few models in the next couple years, but once the M3 is released, GM is in trouble. Tesla is going to cannibalize sales across the board. Crazy over 300k pre-orders already!

 

[jlc1978]

The bolt might sell a few models in the next couple years, but once the M3 is released, GM is in trouble. Tesla is going to cannibalize sales across the board. Crazy over 300k pre-orders already!

Th problem for Tesla is that 300K of preorders represents several years worth of production, so they won't be able to take additional order s and actually deliver them quickly. GM will be able to take orders and deliver cars so they could conceivably sway people who preordered a Tesla to get a refund and buy a Bolt. It's hard to say if that will happen but while the preorders were great form a PR standpoint they pose some very real challenges for Tesla. Tesla can overcome them but if they don't ramp up quickly they could find their window of opportunity closed. Then again, GM could very well experience problems with the Bolt launch as well.

 

[Sonmi451]

Th problem for Tesla is that 300K of preorders represents several years worth of production, so they won't be able to take additional order s and actually deliver them quickly. GM will be able to take orders and deliver cars so they could conceivably sway people who preordered a Tesla to get a refund and buy a Bolt. It's hard to say if that will happen but while the preorders were great form a PR standpoint they pose some very real challenges for Tesla. Tesla can overcome them but if they don't ramp up quickly they could find their window of opportunity closed. Then again, GM could very well experience problems with the Bolt launch as well.

You give the benefit of the doubt to GM for everything, and give Tesla credit for nothing. This is as backwards as you can get. Where is the demand for the bolt? Where are they getting their batteries? How much range will they really get? How many problems will arise with their first real EV? More importantly, how many will they actually sell?? You seem to think the Bolt will come from a company with magical unicorn ice cream excrement.

Tesla has always been a few months behind with supply/demand at worst, so why would the Model 3 be any different? There's going to be WAY more than 300k pre-orders, and it's obvious that's going to take time to fulfill, but "several years" is just FUD. There's no question they can already do 100k and the've been ramping up by 25-40% or so every year, so there is no reason to think they can produce anything less than 150-175k or so in year 1.

If you think Telsa's window will "close" you haven't been paying attention the last 6 years or so. This is not Faraday Future. I'm not even mentioning the most obvious problem to your argument. Have you ever seen the Bolt compared to a Model 3? It's a ******* embarrassment.

 

[SteveW928]

What heap-of-junk ICE cars are people buying that need significant maintenance (other than tyres, lights, brakes, air con, wipers etc.) in the first 3 years (and/or don't come with some sort of free service plan for the first few years)?

When it's all said and done, an EV should have better longevity and WAY lower maintenance costs. Of course, this depends on how it's designed and built, but the same goes for an ICE. There's just WAY more complexity to an ICE. But yea, first 3 years, no kidding!

The average American commutes about 38 miles round trip per day so even the current 80-100 mile EVs work fine for most people.

Exactly, it really depends on the person. When I was in my 20s, I routinely drove a 600 mile 'commute' for one of my jobs (once per week to once every other week between offices). Or, at the early end of that, I'd drive between client sites around the state of Ohio all day (often leaving home at 6-7am and not getting home until 10pm). Obviously, and EV wouldn't work for that at all unless Super Chargers were *extremely* prevalent.

Now, I put a tank of diesel in my TDI Jetta about once per month or every other month, and maybe make a 200+ mile trip like once or twice per year. If I could get a Tesla to my home (which would take some planning, as I'm about 300 miles from the nearest charger on Tesla's map), I'd be fine except for like one trip each year.

Incorrect. The reputation of Beemer drivers is well documented. ... I don't know what that means. I'm pretty sure BMW are still BMW drivers. Tesla drivers are not BMW drivers. I don't see what's wrong with Google cars, they are trying to do something positive for transportation which is a huge problem. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss the importance of Google/Tesla and the impact they will have on our planet.

Yea, but it's also a stereotype. Attitude is attitude, and I've seen it from many vantage points. I've owned both a BMW and a Porsche 928. And, I've driven my share of clunkers too. When I belonged to the Porsche club, I'd say maybe 60% of the people were kind of snobs, who owned the cars because of their status symbol nature. The rest of us were car enthusiasts. BTW, for the cost my BMW was probably the best overall value of any care I've owned.

And, I think the point was about snobs. I've run into a number of environmental snobs, or little car snobs, or big car snobs, etc. You don't have to have a BMW to be one!

re: Google cars - my issue with them is that they are focused on full AI-driving, which IMO, is a recipe for disaster. I'd rather they focus on AI assists like Tesla and produce something of worth.

It's possible to power entire homes with solar arrays, not just a refrigerator. Open up to ALL the possibilities. Who cares about how it happens, the point is that it must happen, don't look back.

LOL... yea, if you have a big enough roof! (Hint: most houses don't.) But, yea, who cares about silly stuff like reality and physics.

Please move to the side, Electric Vehicle coming through. EV isn't on its way, EV is here and now.

OK, either this person is 12 and doesn't even have a car, home, solar panels (aside from the ones in their calculator)... or, they are, a bit cognitively-challenged? (But, they've maybe watched 'Who killed the electric car?' a few too many times.

Maybe some of us LIKE our V8 sedans and sports cars with gas engines? There is such a thing as personal preference here too. Ya ever driven a powerful BMW or Audi? Ya ever drive or ride on an exotic/sports car? Cant replicate it with batteries

I've OWNED a Porsche 928... I've ridden in this car:

I've driven a friends '69 Road Runner (souped up!), a few Porsche 911s, and a number of other pretty fun cars. (Next time I get to San Fran, I can probably get a ride in a friend's Ferrari 360 Modena.)

You absolutely CAN replicate it (OK, other than maybe the sound, and certain aspects unique to a particular car) with an electric. What'cha talking about!?! I'm a sports car nut, and the *main* reason I'm interested in Tesla is because of the performance. (No matter how much power you have, you're not going to control it and put it to the ground as well as an EV can.)

While I agree there are many well known damaging affects from ICE technology; I would not go as far as to say EV's are better on all accounts. You still need to manufacturer them, provide electricity via power plants or solar arrays, all of which have non-negligible environmental impact. As for the technology itself, some of the impact are not yet known. Lithium Ion have hazards of their own, from explosion / combustion from excessive off gassing to the health effects of the off gassing from normal use, as an example.

While I agree ether are probably better overall than ICE, they are not the great green savior either; as we trade off environmental impact for convenience as part of an industrial society.

Good points, though I think the electric will come out ahead, if not right at the moment, in the longer term. So, IMO, it's going to be the best way going forward.

But, even if you're not on the AGW bandwagon (I'm not), there are still actual pollution considerations, and I'd think everyone should be green, if not Green. (if you know what I mean) But, the big reason to get away from gas/oil is more about global political stability. The USA is in an insane mess on a world-scale over oil. We're spending trillions and *many* lives on it, both of US soldiers and citizens of the governments we're toppling for control of the market.

God, maybe, but I'm pretty sure that speed cameras - and the resulting need to obsess over mph - were invented by the other guy. I'd also hypothesise that experienced drivers are better at knowing when to change gear without a rev counter than at estimating their speed in mph (which has little to do with judging the 'safe' speed for the conditions, which is often less than the posted speed limit).

No kidding! And, yea, after you've driven a stick for a bit (in a particular car) the tach isn't all that necessary anymore.

 

[smacrumon]

No, not a child and not cognitively challenged here, but well done at making insults the crux of your argument.

 

[Julien]

In related news it was reported yesterday that Tesla will be refreshing the Model S next week. One thing reported is the removal or modification of the faux grill. Looks like Tesla sees it as a form of skeuomorphism that has fulfilled its use.

http://electrek.co/2016/04/07/tesla-model-s-refresh-2/

 

[jlc1978]

You give the benefit of the doubt to GM for everything, and give Tesla credit for nothing. This is as backwards as you can get. Where is the demand for the bolt? Where are they getting their batteries? How much range will they really get? How many problems will arise with their first real EV? More importantly, how many will they actually sell?? You seem to think the Bolt will come from a company with magical unicorn ice cream excrement.

GM has significantly more experience building cars than Tesla, and has also been making electrics for a while as well. The Bolt could very well have production and supply chain issues as well, but GM has a lot of experience to draw on in that arena. They could also screw it up. As for demand, GM doesn't anticipate much - 30K at the start.

It's interesting you bring up batteries, because that seems to be one constraint Tesla faces; ramping up battery production to meet the demand. They feel it won't be an issue with the M3; I would guess because the GigaFactory is slated to come on line around the time as the M3 production start so both will ramp up concurrently.

Tesla has always been a few months behind with supply/demand at worst, so why would the Model 3 be any different? There's going to be WAY more than 300k pre-orders, and it's obvious that's going to take time to fulfill, but "several years" is just FUD. There's no question they can already do 100k and the've been ramping up by 25-40% or so every year, so there is no reason to think they can produce anything less than 150-175k or so in year 1.

Tesla sold 50 K cars in 2016. They're certainly upgrading production capacity at the factory, shooting for a capacity of 1600 - 2000 or so per week in 2016 (which Musk said in a conference call); which would give them a capacity of 80 - 100k vehicles for 2016. That's in line with Musk's 50% growth rate; but a far cry from your 100k for M3. Your 150-175 K in year one seems to be from your "magical unicorn ice cream excrement"

Even if they hit your production numbers that's 2 - 3 years to meet preorders alone, which is several years so your number back up my statement.

If you think Telsa's window will "close" you haven't been paying attention the last 6 years or so. This is not Faraday Future.

First of all, I said they could, not would. tesla right now is pretty much the only game in town when it comes to a good looking EV. For some reason, the others seem to be stuck on but ugly or super expensive if you want good looking EVs. That could change, and Tesla would find themselves trying to compete with manufacturers with much larger economies of scale and dealer networks. Tesla has a great niche at the higher end of the luxury market, it remains to be seen if they can successfully expand into the broader vehicle market and be profitable.

I'm not even mentioning the most obvious problem to your argument. Have you ever seen the Bolt compared to a Model 3? It's a ******* embarrassment.

On this we agree.
[doublepost=1460202286][/doublepost]

I've OWNED a Porsche 928...
I've driven a friends '69 Road Runner (souped up!), a few Porsche 911s, and a number of other pretty fun cars. (Next time I get to San Fran, I can probably get a ride in a friend's Ferrari 360 Modena.)

The 928 was a beast in it's time though a bit tame for a Porsche. Trailing throttle oversteer separated the drivers from the fatalities. The 60's produced some great muscle cars. SS Chevy, SuperBird and Daytona Charger, Da Judge not to mention big block Vettes and Mustangs. I wish I'd kept the ones I owned and bought some cheap when I had the chance. $3000 for a GT500. Ah, for the days of 35 cent gas and you would wind down the gas gauge as fast as you wound up the speedometer.

But please, it's San Francisco or simply "the City."

You absolutely CAN replicate it (OK, other than maybe the sound, and certain aspects unique to a particular car) with an electric. What'cha talking about!?! I'm a sports car nut, and the *main* reason I'm interested in Tesla is because of the performance. (No matter how much power you have, you're not going to control it and put it to the ground as well as an EV can.)

Same here. It'll be interesting to see what Porsche, BMW, Nissan, et.al produce when they aim at the wider sports car / sport sedan market with EVs instead of the high end market.
[doublepost=1460202474][/doublepost]

In Georgia, which has the second highest EV use outside of California, they passed a law last year imposing an annual $200 fee for EVs. This was to make up the lost revenue from the gas tax. The way it was calculated was a bit ridiculous and is probably 3x what it should be.

I heard they also dropped their $5K tax rebate.