The 2013-2014 Football Thread

[swiftaw]

Hull City AFC renamed Hull City Tigers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23629379

What do you think Jaffa Cake? Sounds a bit too Rugby League to me.

Could be worse, the owner really wanted to change it to Hull Tigers but was convinced to keep the City. Since everyone refers to them as Hull City not Hull City AFC I don't think swapping the AFC for Tigers will make much difference. If they had dropped City as well then that would've been a big change.

 

[835153]

Afternoon all, the EPL clearly playing catch-up to Germany, Spain AND France as the desired destination of 'marquee' transfers. Money being the primary reason one would imagine (Spain can structure salaries to allow payments to be more tax efficient).

But in the case of Germany's upswing, it is perhaps benefitting from the 'halo' effect of an all-German Champions league final?

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Someone explain the Falcao and Cavani transfers to me please?

Most European countries have lower tax rates than the UK (apart from France). So if a player is offered 100k in England and Spain. He will be taxed less in Spain and will most likely go there. In France I believe its a ridiculous 75% tax rate? PSG can offer stupid amount of money and do. Monaco is a principality and there is no income tax so Falcao even if he is only paid 75k will actually earn 75k. All the best players are looking away from the EPL. La Liga is a much more technical league and much better to watch in my opinion. There are no huge stars in the EPL anymore, even Bale has only had a few good seasons and still needs to prove himself for another two seasons to be labelled worldclass.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Could be worse, the owner really wanted to change it to Hull Tigers but was convinced to keep the City. Since everyone refers to them as Hull City not Hull City AFC I don't think swapping the AFC for Tigers will make much difference. If they had dropped City as well then that would've been a big change.

According to the article I linked to, Allam will call the team "Hull City Tigers" locally but (rather American-sounding) "Hull Tigers" everywhere else. I think it could be a phased change that may eventually end up with "City" entirely expunged. Allam has said that the "City" moniker is too generic and that "AFC" makes the name too long.

"People have the right to call the club what they like, it's their club," he said. "We are not going to fans and saying they all have to refer to us in the same way. They call it what they like, we will do the same, but it is for commercial reasons that we are choosing this branding."

The response from the supporter's group appears to be muted disappointment, balancing the rebranding against Allam's financial rescue of the club.

 

[twietee]

Woah, I disagree! The EPL (isn't it BPL, though? -poor Barclays fellas) is the most interesting (for me) atm - by far. And not only because of that famous Fantasy League (although that made me follow it much, much more closely). In terms of overall competitiveness, nothing comes close.

I can't stand the general defensive play in La Liga. Looks often borderline ridiculous and also lot's of theatrical play involved and tedious referee discussions alongside the technical stuff (which I admire, of course).

 

[OllyW]

The response from the supporter's group appears to be muted disappointment, balancing the rebranding against Allam's financial rescue of the club.

As someone who appreciates the traditions of the game I understand their disappointment.

In fact I'm so traditional, I'm taking my Dad to a third division game tomorrow.

 

[twietee]

As someone who appreciates the traditions of the game I understand their disappointment.

In fact I'm so traditional, I'm taking my Dad to a third division game tomorrow.

View attachment 427529

Third division, 20 Pounds? Sounds legit...

 

[OllyW]

Third division, 20 Pounds? Sounds legit...

Last time we played in the Third Division my season ticket only cost £70.

 

[twietee]

Last time we played in the Third Division my season ticket only cost £70.

That's quite fair, isn't it?

How much does a senior have to pay now?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Woah, I disagree! The EPL (isn't it BPL, though? -poor Barclays fellas) is the most interesting (for me) atm - by far. And not only because of that famous Fantasy League (although that made me follow it much, much more closely). In terms of overall competitiveness, nothing comes close.

I think the Premier League has become the most successful league through aggressive and unfettered business practice rather than having a superior product. It is a very good product, but in terms of fairness and fan-friendliness it is well off the top. The lack of local talent is kind of unique among top leagues as well.

I can't stand the general defensive play in La Liga. Looks often borderline ridiculous and also lot's of theatrical play involved and tedious referee discussions alongside the technical stuff (which I admire, of course).

RE: defensive play....obviously you haven't watched enough cold, wet nights at Stoke City.

As someone who appreciates the traditions of the game I understand their disappointment.

In fact I'm so traditional, I'm taking my Dad to a third division game tomorrow.

View attachment 427529

Cool!

20 pounds sounds expensive to my American ears though. I can get tickets to any major sporting event for under 20 dollars, often significantly less (they will be the cheap seats though).

Of course, if I ever make it to England I'd gladly pay 20 quid to watch a match, even in League One. I still hope to watch Liverpool at Anfield some day, but that's going to cost a lot more than 20 quid.

 

[OllyW]

That's quite fair, isn't it?

It was the going rate back in 1988-89.

How much does a senior have to pay now?

My Dad's ticket was £12.

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20 pounds sounds expensive to my American ears though. I can get tickets to any major sporting event for under 20 dollars, often significantly less (they will be the cheap seats though).

Of course, if I ever make it to England I'd gladly pay 20 quid to watch a match, even in League One. I still hope to watch Liverpool at Anfield some day, but that's going to cost a lot more than 20 quid.

It's at the high end for the league, we've still got too high a wage bill with many players signed up on Premier League contracts. They had their pay cut when we dropped to the Championship but Wolves didn't consider adding clauses for relegation down to League 1.

The financial rules get stricter lower down the leagues and we're not allowed to spend more than 60% of our income on players wages. That's why our highest earners are all transfer listed and our ticket prices are quite steep.

 

[twietee]

I think the Premier League has become the most successful league through aggressive and unfettered business practice rather than having a superior product. It is a very good product, but in terms of fairness and fan-friendliness it is well off the top. The lack of local talent is kind of unique among top leagues as well.

RE: defensive play....obviously you haven't watched enough cold, wet nights at Stoke City.

I don't talk about business and fan-friendliness (sad but true) since I watch it on the telly. But let's put it this way: you have the EPL with constantly about 4 teams being able to effectively challenge the title (or maybe 3+2). La Liga 2. Bundesliga 1. In Germany we have every other year a runner up for the title, but it's only Bayern who constantly bring it home. One could even argue it's only those years where Bayern doesn't bring it on the table that others have actually a chance. Hopefully that'll change (most likely still only two contenders) in the future - I just don't see it yet.

And do you watch La Liga? Their defenses (?) are rather weak (they focus on the attack and show, I know) , although I'm not that 'Holzfäller' (lumberjack) type of guy, if that's what your Stoke analogy is heading at

 

[silentownage001]

All the best players are looking away from the EPL. La Liga is a much more technical league and much better to watch in my opinion. There are no huge stars in the EPL anymore, even Bale has only had a few good seasons and still needs to prove himself for another two seasons to be labelled worldclass.

La Liga is a glorified Scottish Premier League. Barcelona and Real Madrid = Rangers and Celtic. Well, once Rangers are back in the top flight. Anyway, in both leagues they get an unfair cut of the TV money allowing them to progress while everyone else struggles. Pretty much all of Spain and Scotland's teams are suffering financially. In Scotland, Hearts have gone into administration. I believe if they don't come out of it by the time the season starts they get a 15 point deduction.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

What do you think Jaffa Cake?

I think that our owner is a wealthy man who has everything, but knows the value of nothing.

I think that declaring our club's identity and history as 'lousy' and 'irrelevant' is absolutely disgusting and nothing short of an insult, and only serves to demonstrate that the Allams understand nothing about football, the club they own or it's supporters.

I think that, as his Lordship mentions, calling us 'Hull City Tigers' in the UK but 'Hull Tigers' abroad is a sop to supporters here to try and make the change more palatable - we'll be Hull Tigers here too within a few years.

I think that this is nothing to do with attracting foreign investment or support overseas - first and foremost it's driven by Allam's ego, talk of strengthening the brand overseas is an attempt to justify that to the easily swayed.

I think the muted statements from the Official Supporters Club demonstrate what an out-of-touch and toothless organisation it is, certainly it's been roundly condemned today for its poor response.

I think that it's disgusting how our club has effectively lied to us over this matter, and that they are trying to take us for idiots.

But what I know is that I am completely opposed to this scandalous change and the underhand way the club has gone about it, and I know that the majority of supporters feel exactly the same way.

And most of all, I know that I support Hull City AFC despite what a rich man may try and tell me.

 

[OllyW]

And most of all, I know that I support Hull City AFC despite what a rich man may try and tell me.

Bravo sir.

We're known everywhere by our nickname Wolves. But if they tried to change our name from Wolverhampton Wanderers FC to any variation including the word Wolves I know our supporters would soon be organising the lynch mob to string the board members up.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Bravo sir.

We're known everywhere by our nickname Wolves. But if they tried to change our name from Wolverhampton Wanderers FC to any variation including the word Wolves I know our supporters would soon be organising the lynch mob to string the board members up.

Here's the silly thing - we like our nickname. A tiger is a pretty cool animal, and if we were to make greater use of it in our marketing I wouldn't have any complaints about it at all.

However, bolting it onto an an abridged version of our current name is ridiculous. We don't have the Wolverhampton Wolves or the Sheffield Owls, nor the Sunderland Black Cats or the Reading Royals. There's a good reason for that - they sound very silly and are totally needless.

Of course, in this situation it's very easy for fans of other teams to mock - but whilst it's our turn now, it may well be their club who are next to change their name or colours.

 

[oscillatewildly]

If Suarez was final the missing piece that brought a championship the way RVP was for United last season, Arsenal would happily buy him and not be sorry about it either, despite all the bad behavior. Any club would. Titles and CL football are the ends that justify all means.

Any club playing in the Premier League has already sold a part of its soul anyway. The longer you've been in, the more soulless you must be. All the top leagues and European competitions are about money and entertainment. Loyalty, sportsmanship and respect for "history" or "tradition" are the exception rather than the rule and are just words used to sell the product. At least they still (usually) put on a show.

I don't see RVP as the final missing piece and I don't believe any club would put up with Suarez. As for soul, some is better than none; I thought Arsenal were better, my mistake.

What's wrong with entertainment?

'The lack of local talent is kind of unique among top leagues as well.' - lack of local high quality coaches and all weather pitches.

Re Tigers - always seen AFC as a plus.

Cheers,
OW

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Well said Jaffa! I think I would feel exactly the same. The talk of international marketing or appealing to people outside the local area is pure flummery on Allam's part. It's just a flimsy pretext to go about his ill-advised branding exercise.

Funnily enough, was just talking today with a friend about renaming Cleveland's baseball team (this is relevant, I promise you). Since 1915, we have carried the Indians name and logo - which is simply racist (go ahead and Google it). I am not judging the past by the standards of the present, but it is no longer acceptable to have a caricature of a Native American as our logo. Times have changed. Most Clevelanders do not want to change it, and feel that 'tradition' ultimately trumps any concerns Native Americans have about it, even though most also seem to admit that it's a bit racist...a weird marriage of opinion.

I personally would like to see us revert to being the Cleveland Spiders, our name from 1887-1899. Or, going back further, to the Forest Citys[sic], the name of Cleveland's first professional team from the 1870s. Both names have legitimate history - and aren't racist either. At the very least we need to ditch the "Chief Wahoo" logo.

I mention this to demonstrate that there are legitimate reasons to 'rebrand'. But Allam's arguments ring completely hollow to me. I don't see any great benefit to what he is doing - it all seems focused on shaping the club to fit Allam's vision for his own satisfaction. I don't see the "Hull Tigers" suddenly causing the London-based media to stop treating the team as provincial, or for Americans to come flooding to their TVs. Where is the vaguely-promised 'broader appeal' appealing to? The team is well grounded in a strong local tradition and is supported by a group of dedicated fans - it ain't broke and it don't need fixin'.

 

[Tilpots]

The situation in Hull City is shameful. The problem of rogue managment is tough. The supporters are locked out of decision making but are the sole source of revenue. Unlike other businesses though, you're not going to go elsewhere with your support. The management's got ya.

Hopefully the HCAFC fans will boycott the new gear and hit the owner in the wallet as best they can. Hold on to those old Amber and Black kits as long as you can, Jaffa!

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Funnily enough, was just talking today with a friend about renaming Cleveland's baseball team (this is relevant, I promise you). Since 1915, we have carried the Indians name and logo - which is simply racist (go ahead and Google it). I am not judging the past by the standards of the present, but it is no longer acceptable to have a caricature of a Native American as our logo. Times have changed. Most Clevelanders do not want to change it, and feel that 'tradition' ultimately trumps any concerns Native Americans have about it, even though most also seem to admit that it's a bit racist...a weird marriage of opinion.

I personally would like to see us revert to being the Cleveland Spiders, our name from 1887-1899. Or, going back further, to the Forest Citys[sic], the name of Cleveland's first professional team from the 1870s. Both names have legitimate history - and aren't racist either. At the very least we need to ditch the "Chief Wahoo" logo.

I mention this to demonstrate that there are legitimate reasons to 'rebrand'. But Allam's arguments ring completely hollow to me. I don't see any great benefit to what he is doing - it all seems focused on shaping the club to fit Allam's vision for his own satisfaction. I don't see the "Hull Tigers" suddenly causing the London-based media to stop treating the team as provincial, or for Americans to come flooding to their TVs. Where is the vaguely-promised 'broader appeal' appealing to? The team is well grounded in a strong local tradition and is supported by a group of dedicated fans - it ain't broke and it don't need fixin'.

I feel the complete opposite. I'm a Redskins fan and am completely opposed to a name change. This probably isn't the thread for this discussion so I'll move on, but this story has really hit me because the same thing is possible for my team.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Yep, being a bit of a kit geek I keep my eye on a few sites and blogs that discuss kits and team logos, so I'd heard of the controversy surrounding both the Cleveland Indians and the Washington Redskins.

Where is the vaguely-promised 'broader appeal' appealing to? The team is well grounded in a strong local tradition and is supported by a group of dedicated fans - it ain't broke and it don't need fixin'.

We're led to believe that adding something liked in the Far East (ie, Tigers) to our official name will win us huge numbers of new supporters there, in much the same way as Cardiff's change to a red kit was sold as making them more popular over there.

If having red shirts and a Far East friendly name is all it takes though, why aren't Leyton Orient the most popular English club out there? As opposed to, say, Manchester United who are basically popular due to their star names and history of winning loads of stuff?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't see RVP as the final missing piece and I don't believe any club would put up with Suarez. As for soul, some is better than none; I thought Arsenal were better, my mistake.

I'm willing to concede the RVP point as arguable. As for Suarez, he's had no trouble finding a club, nor will he ever. The same goes for other "head case" players like Diouf, Anelka, Barton, Ballotelli, Cantona and others. If they have talent they will find buyers.

What's wrong with entertainment?

Nothing, as such. It is probably the primary purpose of any sports league, right? On the other hand, a good league is about a lot more than simple entertainment factor, and I think the Premier League falls short in a lot of those other areas.

'The lack of local talent is kind of unique among top leagues as well.' - lack of local high quality coaches and all weather pitches.

I don't want to sound too harsh on England here, but despite the lack of competition in La Liga and the Bundesliga both Spain and Germany have excellent systems of national talent development. In England, the Premier League places all the blame for poor international performances on the FA. The FA deserves a lot of blame, but I think the Premier League gives national talent development pretty short shrift. They either need to cooperate more - or the FA needs to find a way to put more pressure on them and make clubs show more respect towards the national setup.

I feel the complete opposite. I'm a Redskins fan and am completely opposed to a name change. This probably isn't the thread for this discussion so I'll move on, but this story has really hit me because the same thing is possible for my team.

I feel pretty strongly about it, I won't derail the thread but I will also admit it is a very controversial subject - and I'm still in the minority, though I firmly believe that time will shift more and more people to my side.

Sports tradition is surrounded by strong opinions, to be sure!

 

[pachyderm]

Yep, being a bit of a kit geek I keep my eye on a few sites and blogs that discuss kits and team logos, so I'd heard of the controversy surrounding both the Cleveland Indians and the Washington Redskins.

We're led to believe that adding something liked in the Far East (ie, Tigers) to our official name will win us huge numbers of new supporters there, in much the same way as Cardiff's change to a red kit was sold as making them more popular over there.

If having red shirts and a Far East friendly name is all it takes though, why aren't Leyton Orient the most popular English club out there? As opposed to, say, Manchester United who are basically popular due to their star names and history of winning loads of stuff?

and leyton orient already have a dragon or two in their badge!

they wouldn't have to do what CCFC did:

 

[Lord Blackadder]

If having red shirts and a Far East friendly name is all it takes though, why aren't Leyton Orient the most popular English club out there? As opposed to, say, Manchester United who are basically popular due to their star names and history of winning loads of stuff?

Branding < Winning Things. Swapping to more exportable colors, logos and names might gain a tiny amount of increased interest abroad, but really it's success on the pitch that will bring people in - not to mention the fact that Hull City AFC should be about the local people first and foremost (at least until it becomes a global money-machine like Manchester United or Real Madrid ). I feel for all the Hull City fans out there because this surely won't end well. You get the sense that Allam will want to go further down this rebranding road.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Hmm. A bit of a development this morning.

You see, you can't just change the name of a football club on a whim. An official application has to be put to the League and approved by a set date in order to be in place for the following season. Off the top of my head, I think this date is in early April.

However, no application has been made - the Allams' announcement has taken the Premier League by surprise, and they insist that we'll still be Hull City in all their communications and league tables.

Additionally, they state that they'll only consider endorsing applications where there's evidence that supporters have been consulted. Hmm.

 

[cambookpro]

Here's the silly thing - we like our nickname. A tiger is a pretty cool animal, and if we were to make greater use of it in our marketing I wouldn't have any complaints about it at all.

However, bolting it onto an an abridged version of our current name is ridiculous. We don't have the Wolverhampton Wolves or the Sheffield Owls, nor the Sunderland Black Cats or the Reading Royals. There's a good reason for that - they sound very silly and are totally needless.

Of course, in this situation it's very easy for fans of other teams to mock - but whilst it's our turn now, it may well be their club who are next to change their name or colours.

Funny you should mention 'Reading Royals': over on our fans forum, we've been discussing the 'Royals'isation of the club: http://hobnob.royals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=119539

Most people seem to be fine with it being used on merchandise, shirts etc (we now even have 'Royals' on Marussia F1 cars!) but wouldn't like to see a name change.

Sorry to hear how foreign owner seem to be ignoring the identity of football clubs - although I think Cardiff may see over the change if they become an established PL club.

At least nothing official has happened regarding Hull Tigers - yet. Hopefully it'll stay that way!

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Funny you should mention 'Reading Royals': over on our fans forum, we've been discussing the 'Royals'isation of the club: http://hobnob.royals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=119539

Most people seem to be fine with it being used on merchandise, shirts etc (we now even have 'Royals' on Marussia F1 cars!) but wouldn't like to see a name change.

Sorry to hear how foreign owner seem to be ignoring the identity of football clubs - although I think Cardiff may see over the change if they become an established PL club.

At least nothing official has happened regarding Hull Tigers - yet. Hopefully it'll stay that way!

Yep, there's nothing wrong with using nicknames in marketing a club, but they're just that - nicknames - and bolting them onto the proper name of the club is daft. You're Reading, you're the Royals - but you're not the Reading Royals.

As for foreign owners - funnily enough, Allam Snr has lived in the Hull area since the 1960s, Allam Jnr was born and educated here. So you'd like to think that they'd have a clue - apparently not.